What is Aona's Shard name?

[happyman he/him]

I may not be remembering correctly, but in the WoK epigraphs didn't Hoid imply that Rayse did something to the shards so that no one else could use them. Maybe he did something more than just your usual splinter?

My theory is that Aona and Skai were splintered into the Seons and Skaize.

But I'm also of the opinion that Elantris happens long after Odium's visit, and that the Reod was just a side effect of the fact that the Gods of the world were dead and no longer maintaining their religions or systems of magic, and thus things could break all on their lonesome.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

Well Elantris does happen after his visit. We just don't know for sure how long after.

And Deano, we have assumed up until now that Splintering meant that the Shard was essentially destroyed, its power scattered. All we are told in WoK is that Aona and Skai's shards were Splintered. Recently people have begun to speculate that the Shard being Splintered doesn't necessarily mean that its power is no more - just that it's in pieces. My personal favorite is the idea that when those that hold Splinters (read: Returned, IMO Elantrians, possibly Allomancers) die, the Splinter is either lost or absorbed into the whole. I also like the idea that when the Elantrians die in the pool, the Splinter is returned to the Shard as a whole.

If someone were to find Aona or Skai and take up their Shard (like Sazed and Vin did in Mistborn), they would become the Shardholder to a Shard with no real power. The pieces would be scattered all over the place, and until those pieces were gathered in again, the Shard wouldn't be able to do much.

At least, that's the way I was thinking about it.

[happyman he/him]

I may not be remembering correctly, but in the WoK epigraphs didn't Hoid imply that Rayse did something to the shards so that no one else could use them. Maybe he did something more than just your usual splinter?

My theory is that Aona and Skai were splintered into the Seons and Skaize.

But I'm also of the opinion that Elantris happens long after Odium's visit, and that the Reod was just a side effect of the fact that the Gods of the world were dead and no longer maintaining their religions or systems of magic, and thus things could break all on their lonesome.

Actually, in thinking about this, I wanted to discuss the evidence for and against this.

The first thing I would note is that the Dor, as found in Elantris, is apparently utterly without consciousness.  It is clearly the power of a Shard, or perhaps the combined power of two shards.  As far as I can tell from the text, it has not had a consciousness for as long as people have a memory of knowing about it.  This comes from several facts:  the fact that the Dor still apparently the works the way it did pre-Reod, with only the Chasm line having changed, that the Elantrian's had to scientifically work out how to get it to behave even before the Reod, that the Jesker religion had been studying it for quite some time, apparently thinking of it as a force of nature rather than a consciousness.  Basically, it is very easy to read Sel's history as a history without a god intervening for quite a while, with the Dor just kind of sitting there for anybody to use if they can find a way of attuning.  The fact that the Elantrian's are worshipped as gods is a pretty good indicator that any other gods whose power they were taking has long since been forgotten.

I'm also pretty sure that the powers of the Shards haven't been destroyed.  They probably can't be; the Dor is still around, after all.  In fact, they're probably still on Sel.  The only question is: what form are they in?

That's part of why I think they are connected to the Seons and the Skaze.  Those---entities---have a consciousness, and so are clearly connected to the cognitive realm.  They seem to be immortal, and the Elantrian's have no records of how to create them.  They are an anomaly.  Where does their consciousness come from?  I suspect it is a small piece of the consciousness of their respective Shard, long since shattered into pieces.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

Don't forget the pool, which does appear to have a consciousness of sorts. I'm not sure what that means, since Aona and Skai are both definitely dead by then, but there is definitely a consciousness in the pool.

[Zas678 he/him]

Maybe it's just the cognitive 'mold' of the shard left.  You know how Ati's mind was changed over time because he held Ruin? Maybe that mold is what Raoden hears.

Hmm. You know what? It seems like there's something else going on, some other connection. Looking at Raoden's near-death in the pool, there's Raoden, there's the Pool, and there's.... something else. I don't know if it is a shard, or even just Raoden's unconcious mind, but something stubborn points out the Aon Rao in the city Elantris to Raoden.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

I am seriously considering buying a new copy of Elantris just because I'm getting so frustrated with not having mine with me.

I just find it odd, because with every other time we hear a voice in a pool, it's a Shard. Admittedly, Vin hears Ruin's voice while in Preservation's pool, but I thought that was because of her earring. Or did she take that off? Curses. I really do need my books here.......

It seems weird that we'd have a random non-Shard entity. It also makes very little sense for the Shardholder to be dead and yet the Shard to still have sentience. It should be like the Dor, just a force.

[happyman he/him]

I am seriously considering buying a new copy of Elantris just because I'm getting so frustrated with not having mine with me.

I just find it odd, because with every other time we hear a voice in a pool, it's a Shard. Admittedly, Vin hears Ruin's voice while in Preservation's pool, but I thought that was because of her earring. Or did she take that off? Curses. I really do need my books here.......

It seems weird that we'd have a random non-Shard entity. It also makes very little sense for the Shardholder to be dead and yet the Shard to still have sentience. It should be like the Dor, just a force.

Well, that's the thing.  The shards are so much larger than humans that even a little piece of it left behind can be moderately functional from a human standpoint.  Even if the shard proper has been splintered, there could be some lingering functionality or imprint of personality that can direct events weakly.  The power lying around could still be directed and controlled.  It just wouldn't be on the kind of scale that could challenge another Shardholder, or even be useful.  Just coherent and fulfilling its power's function.

[Chaos he/him]

I really need to keep up on these theory threads more. Darned schoolwork!

I am interested to know how long Odium's 'visit' was for. If it was only a year or two, Odium could only attribute to Dahkor or the Roed (I think it is the latter). However, if Odium was on Sel for up to 100 years (which could be considered 'brief' by an immortal like Hoid) then he could contribute to both, establishing Dahkor when he first came, and leaving right after the Roed. (I believe Dahkor magic was around for many years before the Reod)

This would be something good to know.

Well, the letter writer says Rayse's visit to Sel was "brief", so I kind of doubt that...

I am seriously considering buying a new copy of Elantris just because I'm getting so frustrated with not having mine with me.

I just find it odd, because with every other time we hear a voice in a pool, it's a Shard. Admittedly, Vin hears Ruin's voice while in Preservation's pool, but I thought that was because of her earring. Or did she take that off? Curses. I really do need my books here.......

It seems weird that we'd have a random non-Shard entity. It also makes very little sense for the Shardholder to be dead and yet the Shard to still have sentience. It should be like the Dor, just a force.

Vin definitely took off the earring before going into the Well. Remember, Ruin doesn't need a Hemalurgic spike to influence someone, it just makes it easier. You can bet that whatever limited consciousness he could manage when he was still in the prison would be completely funneled into influencing Vin when she took up the power at the Well.

Maybe it's just the cognitive 'mold' of the shard left.  You know how Ati's mind was changed over time because he held Ruin? Maybe that mold is what Raoden hears.

Point of interest: these "Pools" are related to the Cognitive aspect of the Shardholder. The Well of Ascension is the Cognitive power of Leras. It was when he used this against Ruin that he could perform the imprisonment. Because it came from a source that wasn't the Shard's power itself, Ruin wasn't expecting Preservation to sacrifice his mind like that.

Considering that the pool is directly related to the Cognitive, it would be silly for there not to be an imprint from Aona, splintered or not.

So the question remains, what was this Splintering? We know it killed the Shardholders themselves, but it obviously did not destroy the power of the Shards itself, because we see people using the Dor all the time. I think the Splintering is designed to disable someone from just picking up the Shard and using it (Aside: I wonder if your Spiritual DNA needs to be atypical in some way to pick up Shards. In the HoA annotations, Brandon isn't saying why Vin in particular is chosen, so I think there's something here). But then, Andrew, you just blew my mind here:

My personal favorite is the idea that when those that hold Splinters (read: Returned, IMO Elantrians, possibly Allomancers) die, the Splinter is either lost or absorbed into the whole. I also like the idea that when the Elantrians die in the pool, the Splinter is returned to the Shard as a whole.

If someone were to find Aona or Skai and take up their Shard (like Sazed and Vin did in Mistborn), they would become the Shardholder to a Shard with no real power. The pieces would be scattered all over the place, and until those pieces were gathered in again, the Shard wouldn't be able to do much.

At least, that's the way I was thinking about it.

I'm not sure if Mistborn or Allomancers count for this, because I don't know if they are Splinters.

But wow. This is an interesting idea, especially for implications with Returned. We know Returned only "get" their divine Breath for a week, so maybe Endowment's plan was all along to get that Splinter of power back from them...

I like this idea, because it so similar to how atium and the Well of Ascension operate. But I'm still not sure someone could take their power. On one hand, I sort of doubt Brandon would have the end of the Elantris trilogy to involve people regaining the Shards. That'd be the same ending as HoA, essentially, which would be a little cliche, but also, the letter writer and addressee would know if Aona and Skai's power were regained, right?

More likely: the Splinter goes back into the Dor, but then someone else is taken by the Shaod. Like the Well, the power gets reused.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

That makes sense, I suppose. The splinter just passes to somebody else.

And I totally agree that Brandon's not going to have people take the Shards later in the Elantris trilogy. I was just stating what I thought would happen if someone were to take those shards.

[Puck he/him]

(I apologize in advance for the long post)

What would make you think it was Skai? I can't think of anything to connect the two at the moment, whereas the pool is directly associated with the Elantrians, who seem to be closely tied to Aona.

If you've got anything to connect Skai to the pool, I'd be thrilled to hear it. I agree we take a lot on assumption.

I think there is evidence for why the Elantris pool is Skai. Rather, more specifically, there is significant evidence for why it's not Aona:

1) The pool is an hour hike (p. 354) away from the city. While this is hardly continents away, it is something

2)

[happyman he/him]

Alas, they are not independent pieces of information.  The reasons aons aren't used around the pool, and thus no slime, are probably all linked.  However, I see no reason to link them to Skai.  The pool isn't in Elantris, it is true.  It is, however, much closer to Elantris than absolutely anything else, and clearly closely tied to the Elantrians as well.  It may well have been sacred to the Elantrians, which might explain the lack of Aons and other things.  If it's what's left of a God, it probably was sacred to them, and was probably, despite everything you say, Aona.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

(I apologize in advance for the long post)

What do you mean? Those are the best kind!

1) The pool is an hour hike (p. 354) away from the city. While this is hardly continents away, it is something

Yeah....that's kind of weak. An hour away isn't far. Assuming that they're walking, we're talking somewhere between 5 - 8 miles. With a lot of cities, that would still technically be considered part of the city itself, or would be so closely related to it, it would get referred to as part of Elantris anyway.

2)

[Puck he/him]

All good points Andrew.

And, to be clear, it's not that I think that this pool is of Skai. I just think that there's enough evidence to cast a shadow of doubt on something that many take for granted. And in those shadows, we thrive! (or something)

[Andrew the Great he/him]

I like it. And, also, to be clear, (I wonder how many phrases I can offset with commas before this sentence becomes completely incoherent), I have no problems with your points as well. In fact, I greatly appreciate them. As I mentioned (earlier in this thread, I believe), I feel like we take a lot for granted and just don't stop to consider all possibilities. I appreciate the fact that you're moving past the obvious.

You see, I don't usually come up with all that many original ideas on my own, when it comes to rampant theorizing. I tend to be much better at either refuting points or reinforcing them, depending on my mood. If I didn't have naysayers out there, my life would get very boring, very quickly.

I'm also very much trying to keep from deliberately overlooking the most obvious option, ever since Hero of Ages came out. In the months just before it came out, we pretty much had the basic theory behind hemalurgy right, and then we said, "No, that can't be right. It's way too obvious!" And then we proceeded to create the longest thread ever, in which we all developed incredibly detailed, convoluted versions of how we thought hemalurgy would work. And when the book came out? It was, of course, our first guess, which we had dismissed. (Granted, we were not very detailed in our guessing at first. But we got the general ideas right.)

So if it seems like I'm immediately refuting everything you say just out of spite, that's probably not the case. I just tend to be opinionated, and I stick by my opinions until someone proves me wrong or I see another possibility that seems more likely. Or I decide to play devil's advocate for a bit.

But, as mentioned, that means that I need people to disagree with me, because otherwise I pretty much don't think.

[Puck he/him]

You're wrong!

*sees how this could quickly deteriorate into a Monty Python sketch (

)*

[Zas678 he/him]

I like happyman's theory that Aona and Skai were splintered into Seons and Skaze. It just seems to.. fit. It explains why these random objects have sentinence, and why they can't be replecated.

It would be really helpful if we knew when Odium splintered Aona and Skai.

[happyman he/him]

I like happyman's theory that Aona and Skai were splintered into Seons and Skaze. It just seems to.. fit. It explains why these random objects have sentinence, and why they can't be replecated.

It would be really helpful if we knew when Odium splintered Aona and Skai.

Well, it is one of the reasons I lean towards it happening a long time ago, with the Reod just being the world taking its natural evolution after the gods are no longer involved.

[Chaos he/him]

I'm also very much trying to keep from deliberately overlooking the most obvious option, ever since Hero of Ages came out. In the months just before it came out, we pretty much had the basic theory behind hemalurgy right, and then we said, "No, that can't be right. It's way too obvious!" And then we proceeded to create the longest thread ever, in which we all developed incredibly detailed, convoluted versions of how we thought hemalurgy would work. And when the book came out? It was, of course, our first guess, which we had dismissed. (Granted, we were not very detailed in our guessing at first. But we got the general ideas right.

Those were good times. Together, we get to make everything overcomplicated!

Coming from those experiences with HoA, where we talked much more about Hemalurgy than Ruin and Preservation (the real stuff), I don't think the shadow of doubt you suggest is enough for me to say with high certainty "The pool is related to Aona". Really, it's a binary sort of thing, and there's no pro-Skai evidence here.

((Okay, I suppose it is possible that the pool is related to Odium, but let's be real: that's ridiculous.))

Obvious answers are perfectly fine sometimes.

Hmmm, I wonder if we should do a Theoryland thing where we put in our sigs which theories we espouse. That could be cool.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

Could be fun indeed. Then we have a sort of at-a-glance method of determining who supports what theories, how many people support a given theory, etc, without doing polls and devoting still more threads to topics we've already discussed.

[DariusJenai]

(Aside: I wonder if your Spiritual DNA needs to be atypical in some way to pick up Shards. In the HoA annotations, Brandon isn't saying why Vin in particular is chosen, so I think there's something here).

Sazed gives his thoughts on why.  Not saying there isn't more behind it, but its a fairly long set of requirements that can't happen naturally too often.

I don't have a direct quote, but he says something to the equivalent of the requirements being:

1) Mistborn (an unusually strong one)

2) Early Snapping

3) Seeker Sibling

4) Crazy Parent

So, its possible that Vin was simply the first person in 1000 years to meet the requirements Ati felt he needed to engineer the overthrow of the Final Empire.

That being said, there's nothing that says that being a Mistborn (or Feruchemist in Sazed's case) doesn't automatically give you that special spiritual DNA to be able to hold a Shard.

[Zas678 he/him]

If I remember right, he gave that list to why Ruin chose her. I think he may have tried to choose Kelsier too. He fits the profile really well too. He's a pretty powerful mistborn, has a seeker sibling, is half-skaa, and he was likely to believe that "only he could save the world."

But for some reason, Ruin picked Vin. Doesn't Sazed also say that Ruin picked her for reasons Ruin didn't know?

But Preservation chose her too; that's why she picked up the shard.

[Chaos he/him]

Applicable quote, from http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/355/Mistborn-3-Chapter-Seventy-Nine :

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

There's clearly more than meets the eye here, so the question stands. Does one need to be special to hold a Shard?

[lordofsoup]

Its in Sazed's letter.  Vin was picked by Ruin because she was a mistborn, had a misting sibling and her mother was crazy, so she was the only person who could have gotten the proper spike

[trendkill he/him]

That's just why he picked her to advance his goals. By holding Preservation, she was actually going against what Ruin wanted her to do. Ruin never wanted Vin to hold his shard because there was already someone (Ati) holding it.

[Chaos he/him]

I think you guys are missing the point. Sazed knew those things already. The annotation implies there are things Sazed didn't know as to why Vin was picked.