8/11/25 - PaulSB - Twilight's Rift, sub08 - 4950 words (L)

[Paul SB]

Once more into the breach? 

[Appol PhD they/he]

And onto the next one!

Overall: I like what the scene with A and R is going for by bringing up old pains that make them feel closer. One of my rules of thumb when writing about character dynamics is that each scene should bring the characters closer while pushing them away at the same time, and this does a good job of that. However, it didn’t fully land for me because there’s not a lot new we learn about R and it’s not clear to me how it actually changes things for A.

As for the question about ME’s tantrum, my hangup isn’t with the intensity of the tantrum but how nonspecific it is. She feels like a standard-issue homophobe rather than a fleshed-out character.

As for whether the second scene feels too easy, for me it’s a yes and no situation. I don’t think R and A feeling better after talking it out is necessarily too easy, but it also doesn’t feel like the dynamic has changed enough to justify that.

I do think the last section reads pretty well. I think there’s enough restraint here where the characters see themselves as practical corporate agents rather than mustache-twirling villains that makes it work well.

As I go:

Pg 1-2. Why is this coming up now? Did the computer just do this on its own?

Pg 4. P needling ME like this does help make P stand out, though I’m not sure what this does for the story

Pg 5. I think I’ve said something like this before, but whenever ME talks it feels like we’re getting an infodump on the religion rather than hearing a specific person speak

Pg 8. I think this stuff is fine for A to say, but to me it doesn’t make sense when R is suicidal

Pg 9. This continues to raise the question of why they’re putting up with ME to begin with.

Pg 10. If the story wants us to believe that ME is more complex than she lets on I think it needs to do more work showing that.

Pg 11. I do like the idea of the story using R’s book smarts to help them make a plan. I think for stories like this it’s good for everyone to have a role.

Pg 12. Not quite sure why they’re talking around the issue of whether A is interested in R in return

Pg 14. I don’t think we need to see all of this internality, especially since it’s not related to the plot

[Paul SB]

I’ve gone through and made some adjustments, but I’m mulling over more. Often it only takes a sentence or two to fix things. I’m getting the impression that you are expecting things to go faster, but that requires hacking out the very details that make both the story world and the characters feel real. Real people rarely change overnight, or reveal their innermost thoughts. I could see cutting out most of Act 1 and slowly reintroducing some of it as flashbacks and conversation topics, but even then it wouldn’t quite come out a thriller or action/adventure. That’s not what I’m going for.

 

What would make ME feel more real without completely changing into someone she’s not? She does change later, but it takes some major stuff going down for that to happen. What more do you want to learn about A & R that could be accomplished without adding another couple thousand words to a manuscript that is already long enough that most publishers will trash it rather than read even a paragraph?

 

It’s kind of ironic that my kids think that F is pure cardboard, but you were quite happy with that entry.

 

Pg 1-2. Why is this coming up now? Did the computer just do this on its own? They just retreated into the asteroids to hide from their failed attempt at the end of the last entry. I didn’t think that needed to be spelled out, but it’s a simple fix.

 

Pg 4. P needling ME like this does help make P stand out, though I’m not sure what this does for the story It makes both characters seem like people. P is a tease. It’s a reasonable defense mechanism in her occupation.

 

Pg 5. I think I’ve said something like this before, but whenever ME talks it feels like we’re getting an infodump on the religion rather than hearing a specific person speak

I’ve had the misfortune of growing up surrounded by people who were exactly like that. Every time I expected some humanity to come out, they just tossed out more chapter and verse.

 

Pg 8. I think this stuff is fine for A to say, but to me it doesn’t make sense when R is suicidal

Okay, what would you have said differently?

 

Pg 9. This continues to raise the question of why they’re putting up with ME to begin with.

She’s been their roomie for over a decade. Once people get used to each other they don’t change their status easily.

 

Pg 10. If the story wants us to believe that ME is more complex than she lets on I think it needs to do more work showing that.

There’s more coming, but I would like to know more specifically what you expect to see.

 

Pg 12. Not quite sure why they’re talking around the issue of whether A is interested in R in return

I’m not sure how you missed that. It’s a huge change in their relationship, one that is going to get seriously awkward one way or another, and A is at war with the indoctrination every society imposes on all of its members. R is too scared to ask the question because she's afraid to hear the answer.

 

Pg 14. I don’t think we need to see all of this internality, especially since it’s not related to the plot

It seems like kind of a weird comment after all your comments about depth of character, and when we’re still in Act , and internality is what makes stories feel real to readers (I have on good authority). Internality shows character and motivation, lets the reader know what kind of people they are reading about, and if those people are believable and sufficiently admirable to care what happens to them.

Your thoughts?

[Appol PhD they/he]

2 hours ago, Paul SB said:

I’m getting the impression that you are expecting things to go faster, but that requires hacking out the very details that make both the story world and the characters feel real

I wouldn't say I'm expecting things to go faster, but I do think they need to be more focused. Saving this planet is the first real plot hook we have, and shifting that up doesn't require the story to be an action thriller. Another different plot hook would be fine too, but I'm needing more than what I'm getting right now.

2 hours ago, Paul SB said:

Real people rarely change overnight, or reveal their innermost thoughts.

Yes, and it's the story's job to focus on the important bits of that. There's a reason stories don't show a bunch of scenes of characters sleeping with nothing happening even though we spend hours doing that every day, and that also extends to when they're awake and active but nothing important for the story is happening.

2 hours ago, Paul SB said:

What would make ME feel more real without completely changing into someone she’s not?

I guess the first question I have is why can't the story rework her and change her into someone she's not? That kind of thing happens all the time in editing.

To actually answer, I think that she needs to have a more specific take on the religion that comes from her characterization. The religion seems based of Christianity, and there's a ton of variation in how it comes across. The church I walk past every day has the nonbinary flag out front and "all love is equal" written on the board. What's ME's specific take on this religion, how is that informed by her personal experiences, and why does that matter for the story? I think it needs to answer those questions.

2 hours ago, Paul SB said:

I’ve had the misfortune of growing up surrounded by people who were exactly like that. Every time I expected some humanity to come out, they just tossed out more chapter and verse.

Yeah, that sounds rough to grow up with, and it is believable for a person to act this way. I just don't think it's the right choice for a story. I don't think ME needs to be humanized or sympathetic necessarily, but I think there needs to be more specific insight on either her characterization or the religious system here.

2 hours ago, Paul SB said:

Okay, what would you have said differently?

It just felt like an odd thing to bring up when the gun is right there and addressing it feels a lot more important than the sexuality bit. I do think it could work to have A talk around the issue to help distract R but I think we need to have a reason that this works on her specifically.

3 hours ago, Paul SB said:

She’s been their roomie for over a decade. Once people get used to each other they don’t change their status easily.

I'm not fully convinced of this from what the story has shown, though I think the bigger issue is that from a storytelling perspective this on its own isn't a compelling dynamic. It's very easy to say that two characters were roommates for 10+ years, and it's the story's job to show what that means based on their individual characterizations.

3 hours ago, Paul SB said:

There’s more coming, but I would like to know more specifically what you expect to see.

It's hard to say because (at the risk of being blunt) I'm really not getting anything at all from her. Any ideas I have would feel like me trying to write the character from scratch myself.

3 hours ago, Paul SB said:

I’m not sure how you missed that. It’s a huge change in their relationship, one that is going to get seriously awkward one way or another, and A is at war with the indoctrination every society imposes on all of its members. R is too scared to ask the question because she's afraid to hear the answer.

It's not really a matter of missing anything; it just doesn't make sense as currently written. R doesn't ask the question but she does say it out loud, and we don't get any sense from A why she can't just answer it.

3 hours ago, Paul SB said:

It seems like kind of a weird comment after all your comments about depth of character, and when we’re still in Act , and internality is what makes stories feel real to readers (I have on good authority). Internality shows character and motivation, lets the reader know what kind of people they are reading about, and if those people are believable and sufficiently admirable to care what happens to them.

I feel like the idea that internality is the solution to fleshing out characters is part of the issue the story is having here. Internality is one tool out of many, not a silver bullet solution, and it has to work extra hard to justify itself in the story since everything else has to pause for it to happen. If you could solve every character issue by adding more internality, then writing character-driven stories would be really easy.

In this story, I think the biggest thing missing is characterization in actions. We get some of this, but the way they approach scenes doesn't feel super specific to them.

[Paul SB]

20 hours ago, Appol PhD said:

I think that she needs to have a more specific take on the religion that comes from her characterization.

Okay, now this is something I can work with. ME isn't exactly the character of focus here, but I could certainly tweak her characterization a bit by revealing a bit more of her background, which would get us deeper into her motivations.

20 hours ago, Appol PhD said:

R doesn't ask the question but she does say it out loud, and we don't get any sense from A why she can't just answer it.

R is terrified of getting the answer she expects, and A has very mixed feelings about it. I went back and clarified that a bit.

 

20 hours ago, Appol PhD said:

I think the biggest thing missing is characterization in actions

Okay, I'll see what I can do here, but they are pretty constrained, and they have been doing things. There was an entry I wrote that took place right after their failed snag attempt where P pestered A at the wrong time to the point that A snapped and nearly drowned her. My original writing group loved that entry, but the dev ed though it was stupid, so I dropped it. That would definitely show some character by way of action. If I put it back in I would be giving up on getting that guy to publish it, but I'm getting the impression he's just stringing me along anyway.

20 hours ago, Appol PhD said:

There's a reason stories don't show a bunch of scenes of characters sleeping

Girl In Red has a song about that, but I doubt the effect is generalizable.

 

Thanks again!

[Appol PhD they/he]

12 hours ago, Paul SB said:

There was an entry I wrote that took place right after their failed snag attempt where P pestered A at the wrong time to the point that A snapped and nearly drowned her. My original writing group loved that entry, but the dev ed though it was stupid, so I dropped it. That would definitely show some character by way of action. If I put it back in I would be giving up on getting that guy to publish it, but I'm getting the impression he's just stringing me along anyway.

It's hard to know for sure without reading the entry but this sounds like the exact kind of thing I'm looking for! A reacting in a way that's pretty extreme and unexpected but is still consistent with her characterization and makes some sense given the life-or-death nature of this whole ordeal.