Duralumin and pewter. A case study.

[DoctaDajman]

When looking at Vin popping another pewter burners head like a pimple via a headbutt I do wonder how well she could have protected herself afterwords. 

If I recall correctly she had already been injured pretty badly in this scene and then immediately following the headbutt she passes out. 

My question now is, what was it that made her pass out?  Was it all of the damage suffered earlier in the fight? Was it one massive blunt trauma to her own head as she crushed the other pewter enhanced individuals skull like an egg?  Or was it simply from the shock of suddenly not having any pewter left in her system? 

Think tanking a mechanism to automatically refuel metal into the system makes me wonder if Vin could have continued the fight had she not needed to be conscious long enough to drink another vial. 

A spool of pewter that is spring loaded and feeds into a port on the body with a catheter that allows the flesh to touch the length of metal that is inserted there. As the individual burns the metal it automatically gets pressed in to the end of the catheter again. 

My understanding is that duralumin will burn everything available of a metal you are currently burning at once and you get all of that benefit instantly. 

But with this port and catheter only a predetermined amount of metal is capable of being burnt at once before it reloads the metal via the spring loaded spool. 

Back to Vins case, if she were utilizing something like this, I theorize she could have continued fighting even beyond this via an immediate refresh of pewter stores that she could burn or even flare following the duralumin dump. 

Obviously this would put the pewterarm at more risk of pushing themselves to the point of death thanks to them not realizing the severity of their own wounds until it is too late. But... it is still a fun thought experiment for the potential possibilities of a mistborn or pewterarm / hemalurgist who could duralumin boost multiple strikes in quick succession. Between the insane boosts of Strength and toughness this user could be a true nightmare on a battle field. 

If you set up the catheter to offer 5 minutes of pewter to burn in one shot wouldnt that give each duralumin burst of pewter that much power in a single moment?  

We dont know if duralumin can be burnt over a second or two or 5 or whatever. It seems that they would use it all at once and thus 5 minutes of doubled strength would be funneled into 1 second of 600x strength for a single second no?  Im not sure of diminishing returns. It doesn't mention them but I dont know that anyone has mathed it in the books. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

29 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

When looking at Vin popping another pewter burners head like a pimple via a headbutt I do wonder how well she could have protected herself afterwords. 

If I recall correctly she had already been injured pretty badly in this scene and then immediately following the headbutt she passes out. 

My question now is, what was it that made her pass out?  Was it all of the damage suffered earlier in the fight? Was it one massive blunt trauma to her own head as she crushed the other pewter enhanced individuals skull like an egg?  Or was it simply from the shock of suddenly not having any pewter left in her system? 

Think tanking a mechanism to automatically refuel metal into the system makes me wonder if Vin could have continued the fight had she not needed to be conscious long enough to drink another vial. 

A spool of pewter that is spring loaded and feeds into a port on the body with a catheter that allows the flesh to touch the length of metal that is inserted there. As the individual burns the metal it automatically gets pressed in to the end of the catheter again. 

My understanding is that duralumin will burn everything available of a metal you are currently burning at once and you get all of that benefit instantly. 

But with this port and catheter only a predetermined amount of metal is capable of being burnt at once before it reloads the metal via the spring loaded spool. 

Back to Vins case, if she were utilizing something like this, I theorize she could have continued fighting even beyond this via an immediate refresh of pewter stores that she could burn or even flare following the duralumin dump. 

Obviously this would put the pewterarm at more risk of pushing themselves to the point of death thanks to them not realizing the severity of their own wounds until it is too late. But... it is still a fun thought experiment for the potential possibilities of a mistborn or pewterarm / hemalurgist who could duralumin boost multiple strikes in quick succession. Between the insane boosts of Strength and toughness this user could be a true nightmare on a battle field. 

If you set up the catheter to offer 5 minutes of pewter to burn in one shot wouldnt that give each duralumin burst of pewter that much power in a single moment?  

We dont know if duralumin can be burnt over a second or two or 5 or whatever. It seems that they would use it all at once and thus 5 minutes of doubled strength would be funneled into 1 second of 600x strength for a single second no?  Im not sure of diminishing returns. It doesn't mention them but I dont know that anyone has mathed it in the books. 

It's funny, I had a similar idea a while back, but with my Hemalurgist's perspective I thought of a device that would rapidly impale the Pewterarm/Duralumin Gnat with more pewter.

I think the spool could work too, maybe even better depending on how uncomfortable it is to wear and whether the spool of pewter burns through the whole object at once despite only a portion being in the body at a time.

Kind of like how only a small part of a person's body needs to touch a Speed bubble to get pulled in, it might be that you can burn metals largely outside the body as long as a small part pierces you.

[DoctaDajman]

55 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It's funny, I had a similar idea a while back, but with my Hemalurgist's perspective I thought of a device that would rapidly impale the Pewterarm/Duralumin Gnat with more pewter.

I think the spool could work too, maybe even better depending on how uncomfortable it is to wear and whether the spool of pewter burns through the whole object at once despite only a portion being in the body at a time.

Kind of like how only a small part of a person's body needs to touch a Speed bubble to get pulled in, it might be that you can burn metals largely outside the body as long as a small part pierces you.

If it worked like that I wonder if a pewter arm with duralumin could take on so much pewter at once to punch through thick steel?  Massively stacked pewter strength plus the durability and enhancements to the physical bodies toughness... going back to Vin, she was able to crush an already enhanced pewterarms skull with a short motion headbutt... 

But beyond that... duralumin burning of steel would allow the user to avoid being stabbed because as soon as the steel punctured their skin they could burn away the entire weapon with a duralumin push. For that reason I think it is unlikely. 

Another possibility that would probably make this not possible is to think of an iron compounder... with a pile of iron that they have filled.... if it were all one massive chunk and they simply needed to burn the first tiniest bit to chain reaction yourself into being a blackhole... 

I personally like the idea that it will only react with what is currently available to be burnt which would be what is laying inside of that catheter. 

Aluminum casing hiding the spool from view would be a good addition too. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

But beyond that... duralumin burning of steel would allow the user to avoid being stabbed because as soon as the steel punctured their skin they could burn away the entire weapon with a duralumin push. For that reason I think it is unlikely. 

I mean, it would have to specifically be Allomantically viable and they'd have to be ready for it, so it's pretty circumstantial. 

I had an idea before when thinking of combat Twinborn, where a Bloodmaker/Aluminum Gnat could burn away aluminum bullets, then tap health to recover. If the aluminum could be burned as it enters the body (with a great deal of practice) the Twinborn may even be able to reduce the overall damage initially done by such attacks. Basically a Bloodmaker that specializes in soft-countering aluminum Hazekiller rounds.

7 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Another possibility that would probably make this not possible is to think of an iron compounder... with a pile of iron that they have filled.... if it were all one massive chunk and they simply needed to burn the first tiniest bit to chain reaction yourself into being a blackhole... 

I personally like the idea that it will only react with what is currently available to be burnt which would be what is laying inside of that catheter. 

I think it would be really hard to actually get enough mass to create a black hole, but I suppose another meta issue would be if a Mistborn/Hemalurgist amassed a ton of pewter, steel, and some duralumin, then pierced their body with a small portion. 

This could give them a supernova of power, destroying everything nearby with an uber-Steelpush.

But then again, big bombs exist and aren't considered too OP to add into stories, so maybe it's not too game breaking.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

If I recall correctly she had already been injured pretty badly in this scene and then immediately following the headbutt she passes out. 

My question now is, what was it that made her pass out?  Was it all of the damage suffered earlier in the fight? Was it one massive blunt trauma to her own head as she crushed the other pewter enhanced individuals skull like an egg?  Or was it simply from the shock of suddenly not having any pewter left in her system? 

Yes - all of the above, cumulative. Blood loss, concussion, shock of seeing Elend's reaction, and aa small Pewter drag with no more Pewter available. Luckily, that was the last assassin, and there was no more fighting to be done (which is why she was willing to use the Duralumin that way). 

WoA Ch 38:

Spoiler

Where have I seen this man before?

Her vision darkened. However, as the Thug constricted his grip, he leaned closer, closer, closer . . .

She didn’t have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent’s hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

The man’s head exploded as easily as the eyeball had earlier.

Vin gasped for breath and pushed the headless corpse off her. Elend stumbled back, his suit and face sprayed red. Vin stumbled to her feet. Her vision swam as her pewter dissipated—but even through that, she could see an emotion on Elend’s face, stark as the blood on his brilliant white uniform.

Horror.

No, she thought, her mind fading. Please, Elend, not that . . .

She fell forward, unable to maintain consciousness.

 

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

My understanding is that duralumin will burn everything available of a metal you are currently burning at once and you get all of that benefit instantly.

Not precisely. Duralumin (and Chromium, likely also Aluminum and Nicrosil) burn at a rate and cause other metals to burn at higher rates (either releasing all of the effect at once, or producing no effect), so it is possible that too little Duralumin/Chromium comapred to too large a metal reserve would run out before all of the metals are burned away. WoB:

Spoiler

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

Hope that helps

[DoctaDajman]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Yes - all of the above, cumulative. Blood loss, concussion, shock of seeing Elend's reaction, and aa small Pewter drag with no more Pewter available. Luckily, that was the last assassin, and there was no more fighting to be done (which is why she was willing to use the Duralumin that way). 

WoA Ch 38:

  Reveal hidden contents

Where have I seen this man before?

Her vision darkened. However, as the Thug constricted his grip, he leaned closer, closer, closer . . .

She didn’t have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent’s hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

The man’s head exploded as easily as the eyeball had earlier.

Vin gasped for breath and pushed the headless corpse off her. Elend stumbled back, his suit and face sprayed red. Vin stumbled to her feet. Her vision swam as her pewter dissipated—but even through that, she could see an emotion on Elend’s face, stark as the blood on his brilliant white uniform.

Horror.

No, she thought, her mind fading. Please, Elend, not that . . .

She fell forward, unable to maintain consciousness.

 

Not precisely. Duralumin (and Chromium, likely also Aluminum and Nicrosil) burn at a rate and cause other metals to burn at higher rates (either releasing all of the effect at once, or producing no effect), so it is possible that too little Duralumin/Chromium comapred to too large a metal reserve would run out before all of the metals are burned away. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

Hope that helps

 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I mean, it would have to specifically be Allomantically viable and they'd have to be ready for it, so it's pretty circumstantial. 

I had an idea before when thinking of combat Twinborn, where a Bloodmaker/Aluminum Gnat could burn away aluminum bullets, then tap health to recover. If the aluminum could be burned as it enters the body (with a great deal of practice) the Twinborn may even be able to reduce the overall damage initially done by such attacks. Basically a Bloodmaker that specializes in soft-countering aluminum Hazekiller rounds.

I think it would be really hard to actually get enough mass to create a black hole, but I suppose another meta issue would be if a Mistborn/Hemalurgist amassed a ton of pewter, steel, and some duralumin, then pierced their body with a small portion. 

This could give them a supernova of power, destroying everything nearby with an uber-Steelpush.

But then again, big bombs exist and aren't considered too OP to add into stories, so maybe it's not too game breaking.

I think @Treamayne makes a good point about duralumin burning a set amount. 

While we dont have the figures in, I think it is safe to say that multiple ports could get around this as well. A person with duralumin and pewter to spare were to take the time to do the math they could probably find an appropriate ratio to have precisely enough duralumin loaded into their port to burn the amount of pewter that they wish to place in... 

Since it is a sort of indwelling catheter and port, I guess it could all be measured by gauge of wire and length of wire.  If the ratio is a 1:1 volume of duralumin for volume of pewter then make them the same gauge and length. If it Is a 1:10 ratio that duralumin will burn other metals then that can be adjusted through the catheter length and gauge fairly easily. 

This would allow for precisely calculated bursts of power which could be really fun to explore.