Are The Shin Hiding Something?

[Prince]

The Way of Kings pg 24 wrote:

He had heard the Voidbringers could hold it perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.

This quote prompted my thinking "Why would Szeth's Honor and Punishment as Truthless conflict on the subject of Voidbringers?" Then my mind went crazy and began to pull ideas from the Aether to form this theory: The Stone Shamans don't want to acknowledge Voidbringers. Maybe Szeth spoke out against the stone shamanistic belief betraying his people's culture. He was punished for this.

This also lead me to assume Szeth's devotion to Honoring the Truth about Voidbringers is the source of his surgebinding powers. He could well be bound to a TruthSpren and all he has to do to gain greater Surgebinding powers is tell the truth.

[name_here]

Well, yeah, clearly something is up with Stone Shamanism. I'm dubious that Szeth was punished for saying Voidbringers exist, especially since he doesn't seem terribly certain that they do.

It seems likely to me that he did something, potentially killing someone with his Shardblade, that would have been justified by the existance of Voidbringers. Thus, his punishment is a statement that they do not exist.

I think he draws Radiant powers from the Oathstone, since Radiant powers seem to come from various sorts of obligation to others.

[Aethling he/him]

Isn't the blade part of his penance? I got the impression that he got the blade after being declared truthless.

[name_here]

It is not actually clear. However, using a normal weapon apparently automatically drops people to the warrior class, so picking up a Shardblade might justify Truthless status all by itself. He could have committed some sort of other major crime, but Shardblades were designed to fight Voidbringers in the first place and so it might be that using them against Voidbringers would not violate Stone Shamanism.

[Shivertongue he/him]

I always figured that line had to do with the idea that Shardblades were made to fight Voidbringers. It could be in the Shin culture, that picking up a Shardblade is acknowledgement that you think that Voidbringer's are real, as the only reason to wield one is to fight them. But Shin culture denies the existence - so Szeth's punishment, to become Truthless, is to remind him that he believed a lie, and so his honor demands that Voidbringer's be real.

That is all pure speculation, of course.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Isn't the blade part of his penance? I got the impression that he got the blade after being declared truthless.

Me too. Doesn't Tavarangian say that he was given the Blade after being cast out?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yeah he did. Of course, T. could be wrong but Szeth doesn't correct him.

[Asha'man Logain]

I always figured that line had to do with the idea that Shardblades were made to fight Voidbringers. It could be in the Shin culture, that picking up a Shardblade is acknowledgement that you think that Voidbringer's are real, as the only reason to wield one is to fight them. But Shin culture denies the existence - so Szeth's punishment, to become Truthless, is to remind him that he believed a lie, and so his honor demands that Voidbringer's be real.

That is all pure speculation, of course.

I like this line of reasoning.

Also, Seth while a surgebinder, is NOT a Radiant in training. Something different is happening with him, which i take to mean his powers are NOT coming from the Naheel Bond.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I like this line of reasoning.

Also, Seth while a surgebinder, is NOT a Radiant in training. Something different is happening with him, which i take to mean his powers are NOT coming from the Naheel Bond.

And remember, not all Nahel-bonded surgebinders are Radiants.

[spirit he/him]

I was wondering is it possibly that the parshedi aren't the only parshman to have transformed and that Seth took up his blade to kill one(or more) presumably to save some one and that taking up the blade is what made him truth less so his his punishment demands that they not exist but his own honer demains that what he did was right and so the danger had to be real

just an idea

[kari-no-sugata]

What aren't the Shin hiding?

Consider just the second interlude...

Normal warrior servants can't be traded with outsiders yet Szeth was approx 7 years ago. Why the distinction? As a side note: Galivar's death was nearly 6 years ago, so it took a bit over 1 year between Szeth leaving Shinovar and him assassinating Galivar - and he probably spent a good chunk of that as Vstim's servant.

That Shin farms are "holy" seems suspicious too. I can't believe all farmers are super special - there would just be too many of them. They don't use fabrials it seems, so I presume they grow all their food. Unless they have super skills in farming (seems unlikely considering they have problems getting metal) 70-90% of the population would have to be farmers. Maybe only some of the farmers are special - eg use "magic" in farming.

In Szeth's bit there's brief mentions the "valley of truth" and the list of people to be killed he's given is written in the "warrior's script of his homeland". Bit surprising for the lowly warriors to have their own script.

[Aeshdan he/him]

In Szeth's bit the list of people to be killed he's given is written in the "warrior's script of his homeland". Bit surprising for the lowly warriors to have their own script.

Not really. It would probably be sacrilegious for warriors to read and write the language used by farmers or merchants.

[kari-no-sugata]

Not really. It would probably be sacrilegious for warriors to read and write the language used by farmers or merchants.

Why do the lowest of the low need to know how to read and write anyway though?

[Aethling he/him]

Farmers produce food, that is a pretty important vocation in any culture at any time.

Remember, the prohibition against males reading is a tradition among the Alethi. Even they allow certain men to read without any additional stigma. It is seen as a non-warrior thing to do, but we do not have any listed instances of someone actually being punished for having the ability to read, at least not that I can remember.

It is pretty evident that Szeth can read. He is given a hit list that includes fairly involved directions on how to pull them off. I have never been a hitman, but it would be a little risky to have another person read the hitlist and tell you what is required. Very early, he even writes something down after he kills the king.

Not all planets have monolithic cultures. Even today, there are certain cultures on earth that discourage certain genders from reading and driving. Even in the west, it is a fairly recent occurence that women have had the right to own property. Voting for women is less than 100 years old in the US. Voting for 18 year olds is a Vietnam era....

Some people say we tend to focus on the main characters in the book. That is because they are the main characters and we know the most about them. We know what it is like for a darkeyed Alethi to grow up in a privileged family, but we do not have any clue what the Shin culture is actually like. All of what we know is second hand or through the view of one person.

[kari-no-sugata]

Farmers produce food, that is a pretty important vocation in any culture at any time.

Yes, but the people actually working in the fields are generally at or near the bottom in terms of importance. Can you think of any Earth culture where farmers out-ranked warriors?

Now, I realise the Shin are considered "odd" by everyone else. But I still find it especially odd for farmers in general to be privileged in a society in which they should also be the biggest group - it's not like it's hard to become a farmer. So why doesn't everyone want to become a privileged farmer?

Let me put it another way: I fail to see how farmers can continue to be privileged in a rural society unless there is some additional way to differentiate between them. I suspect this comment from an outsider about farmers being special and privileged is incomplete and there's more too it (eg some farmers are genuinely special while most are ordinary).

Remember, the prohibition against males reading is a tradition among the Alethi. Even they allow certain men to read without any additional stigma. It is seen as a non-warrior thing to do, but we do not have any listed instances of someone actually being punished for having the ability to read, at least not that I can remember.

It is pretty evident that Szeth can read. He is given a hit list that includes fairly involved directions on how to pull them off. I have never been a hitman, but it would be a little risky to have another person read the hitlist and tell you what is required. Very early, he even writes something down after he kills the king.

I'm certainly not arguing that Szeth can't read or write, or that Vorin culture is universal on Roshar. I'm expressing surprise that Shin warriors can read and write at all given what else we know about their society - they seem to be treated like slaves. Is it normal for slaves to have their own specialised writing system? Also remember that warriors cannot be traded with outsiders (Szeth was a special exception being Truthless) - so are you suggesting that Shin warriors commonly assassinate other Shin? But why would it be normal to given written instructions rather than simply tell them? Also, if the warriors master writes out an order they would have to learn the warriors script - doesn't that strike you as being odd at all, considering how Shin treat warriors?

In short, I find it curious that Shin warriors have their own specialised writing system. What I'm not saying is "Brandon screwed up". I think we should read between the lines and not take at face value what characters say about the Shin. For example, maybe this warriors writing system is an ancient historical artifact from the days when warriors weren't the lowest of the low and has been preserved for some reason.

[Aethling he/him]

Remember, the warriors do not start off as warriors. The warrior's script could be something as simple as stylized letters that are essentially the same, but look a little different. Until we know more, we just do not know how different it is from the regular text. Modern caligraphy is essentially a different script, but it uses exactly the same basic characters. I remember an incident where a German girl was explaining how hard it was for the younger generation (born 70s) to read the WW2 era print letters. The words are the same, but the print was more gothic. For all we know, the warrior script may be the precursor to their other written forms, that actually makes sense if you believe the have a link to the old radiant orders.

IF you look at farmers in the sense of landowners with their ground under cultivation, they need not do the actual work in the fields themselves. Would you say that southern plantation owners were not farmers? Medieval landowners are probably more removed from the title of farmer, but they and plantation owners would have time to do stuff that many people just would not have the time to do.

Any society that abhors violence would hold farmers at higher levels than warriors, especially in pre-industrial times. It might not be the best example but what about modern Amish? They dislike violence and find value in manual labor.

[Aeshdan he/him]

IF you look at farmers in the sense of landowners with their ground under cultivation, they need not do the actual work in the fields themselves. Would you say that southern plantation owners were not farmers? Medieval landowners are probably more removed from the title of farmer, but they and plantation owners would have time to do stuff that many people just would not have the time to do.

Vstim explicitly states that it's the actual workers that are sacred, not just the landowners.

As for kari-no-sugata's point, my argument is that there needs to be some way to leave written instructions for warriors, and it's probably sacrilegious to give instructions for killing in the Adder's Tongue (name i just made up for the ordinary Shin language.)

P.S. I think kari-no-sugata might be Shin herself.

[kari-no-sugata]

Any society that abhors violence would hold farmers at higher levels than warriors, especially in pre-industrial times. It might not be the best example but what about modern Amish? They dislike violence and find value in manual labor.

Hmm...

I know very little about the Amish, even with a quick bit of research, but it seems like they could be a reasonable counter-example. Anyone else care to comment?

[kari-no-sugata]

Vstim explicitly states that it's the actual workers that are sacred, not just the landowners.

Yep.

As for kari-no-sugata's point, my argument is that there needs to be some way to leave written instructions for warriors, and it's probably sacrilegious to give instructions for killing in the Adder's Tongue (name i just made up for the ordinary Shin language.)

This would imply that it's relatively common enough for Shin to use their warrior-slaves to assassinate each other. Common enough that a "warriors script" would have been invented if it didn't already exist. The Shin really do seem to be anti-violence so this strikes me as quite odd.

Of course, we dont know what the warriors do on a day-to-day basis - I dont think being escorts for farmers would be common enough. I guess they get involved with protecting/controlling the borders at least.

P.S. I think kari-no-sugata might be Shin herself.

Er, what?

For what it's worth, I'm British (mostly) and male. You may be reading too much into my chosen handle.

[Aethling he/him]

Scale down the example then and have it as a yeoman farmer. They worked their own land for the most part, but were also widely respected, at least in the early republic history of the US. There is a book named "Masters of Small Worlds" that goes into that type or relationship. Also, while farming is extremely labor intensive during the cultivation seasons, if you live in an area that gets cold during the winter, you basically have a several month period between the reaping and the spring plantings that there is no planting or picking that needs to be done, depending on your chosen crops. If you are a small farmer, you have time where you are not as busy to study and learn. The perfect counter argument would be serfs, but we do not really know if their is really a serf type class in Shin.

[Windrunner he/him]

As for kari-no-sugata's point, my argument is that there needs to be some way to leave written instructions for warriors, and it's probably sacrilegious to give instructions for killing in the Adder's Tongue (name i just made up for the ordinary Shin language.)

Any reason for this name? Non-canonical terms get confusing quickly if they aren't widespread in their use, leading to misunderstandings if it is mentioned elsewhere by someone who hasn't read this topic.

[Aeshdan he/him]

This would imply that it's relatively common enough for Shin to use their warrior-slaves to assassinate each other.

Huh? I just said that there needed to be a way to give instructions to warriors, not that they had to be assassination orders.

As for your question, Windrunner, I picked that because the Shin seem to draw a pretty sharp line between those who add and those who take away, and because there isn't a real name for that language that we know of.

[kari-no-sugata]

Huh? I just said that there needed to be a way to give instructions to warriors, not that they had to be assassination orders.

Well, you did say "instructions for killing" in the same line, so I thought that's what you were getting at.

But yes, you could imagine general purpose instructions and orders being written for warriors in a generic society but the Shin seem to have pretty simple lives and no armies - for the Shin warriors, there's a very flat command structure in that they simply have to obey the person who owns their Oathstone. Verbal instructions seem simplest and best way.

Shrug... I dunno... there's no way I can disprove this but it just feels more natural and has better potential story-wise if this "warriors script" is some ancient leftover rather than a more modern development for bureaucracy's sake.

Edited June 30, 2012 by kari-no-sugata