DoctaDajman Posted May 8, 2025 Posted May 8, 2025 I know this is probably an odd topic but I heard the zoo tier guy talk about 100 men vs 1 silverback gorilla and he mentioned the gorilla being 6x stronger than a man. Which instantly made me think about pewter allomancy and think of a pewter arm vs a gorilla. Which then led me of an army of lifeless gorillas and chimps... While thinking further about the lifeless chimps and gorillas I had, what I consider to be a totally natural progression of thought, the idea of how apes are able to communicate and feel. Do they have enough sapience to use emotional allomancy against? @Trusk'our I might as well tag you in this next one, since I am asking about emotional allomancy... how would the weakness of hemalurgy transfer over? Do you suspect the bindpoints may be more similar to humans due to the closeness in anatomy and the gene pool? Would an ape need less spikes to make them vulnerable to hemalurgic control? Does anyone think enough innate investiture could kick an ape up to human levels of sapience and intelligence? I could take this list of questions on and on... but current thoughts are that they would be far more effective than my pack of lifeless dogs for 2 major reasons... #1 sapience / intelligence. I think the great apes would be able to understand far more complicated communication than dogs and this would translate to more complex commands and more exactness in carrying them out. #2 anatomy. The apes still have terrifying bite forces and chompers. They have hands and feet and their bodies can just move in so many more useful ways. Could this translate to them being able to use primitive tools and weapons via command? I know this is a whacky topic but I have been yearning for some shard talk and a squad of lifeless armored apes running around doing their awakeners bidding forced me to make a new one. 2
Trusk'our he/him Posted May 8, 2025 Posted May 8, 2025 13 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said: @Trusk'our I might as well tag you in this next one, since I am asking about emotional allomancy... how would the weakness of hemalurgy transfer over? Do you suspect the bindpoints may be more similar to humans due to the closeness in anatomy and the gene pool? Would an ape need less spikes to make them vulnerable to hemalurgic control? Since apes and humans have such a similar anatomy, yes, I am fairly certain bindpoints would be very similar too. Also, since a weaker mind makes a construct more susceptible to Allomantic control (see Koloss in Era 1 and TenSoon's Blessing countering some of his weakness), I think Hemalurgic apes would be easier to dominate than humans with spikes. Don't know about controlling spiked Lifeless with Emotional Allomancy, but I suspect they'd at least be easier to break than normal Lifeless as an Awakener. And perhaps Emotional Allomancy can make it easier too, as Lifeless are effected by it in some way (I actually suspect it's similar to Command breaking or controlling a Hemalurgic construct). Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395-icon-2019/#e13062 Questioner I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless. Brandon Sanderson Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person. Questioner Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO. Questioner I meant like breaking the Command. Brandon Sanderson Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it. 18 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said: Does anyone think enough innate investiture could kick an ape up to human levels of sapience and intelligence? I don't think so. Breath is basically just innate Investiture that can be given to others and shaped a little through Commands, but you couldn't give something like a Mistwraith sapience with it. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137-general-signed-books-2015/#e7249 PhantomMonstrosity How many Breaths would be fair to turn a mistwraith into kandra-ish? Brandon Sanderson Turning a mistwraith to a kandra would be hard with Breath. It doesn't give sentience. Now, if you juice then up to Nightblood levels I think you'll see a real cognitive enhancement, but that's not exactly cost effective. 1
DoctaDajman Posted May 8, 2025 Author Posted May 8, 2025 15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Since apes and humans have such a similar anatomy, yes, I am fairly certain bindpoints would be very similar too. Also, since a weaker mind makes a construct more susceptible to Allomantic control (see Koloss in Era 1 and TenSoon's Blessing countering some of his weakness), I think Hemalurgic apes would be easier to dominate than humans with spikes. Don't know about controlling spiked Lifeless with Emotional Allomancy, but I suspect they'd at least be easier to break than normal Lifeless as an Awakener. And perhaps Emotional Allomancy can make it easier too, as Lifeless are effected by it in some way (I actually suspect it's similar to Command breaking or controlling a Hemalurgic construct). Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395-icon-2019/#e13062 Questioner I have a question about emotional Allomancy and ways it can affect things that aren't from Scadrial. Specifically, I had a conversation about what it would do to Lifeless. Brandon Sanderson Emotional Allomancy would have a more compelling effect on Lifeless than on a regular person. Questioner Like breaking Lifeless with Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Oh... to break Lifeless. This... I'll RAFO that for now, just because the actual details there I'm gonna RAFO. So, you're really asking, "Can emotional Allomancy bring back the person behind the Lifeless," and that I'll have to RAFO. Questioner I meant like breaking the Command. Brandon Sanderson Oh, breaking the command of a Lifeless. Ohhhh... I'll still RAFO that. *laughter and applause from audience* That's not nearly as difficult a question, but yeah... I would say if you're doing that in a roleplaying game, I would call that a viable use of the magic as currently understood. So you could make that happen and have my authority to do it. I don't think so. Breath is basically just innate Investiture that can be given to others and shaped a little through Commands, but you couldn't give something like a Mistwraith sapience with it. Hide contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137-general-signed-books-2015/#e7249 PhantomMonstrosity How many Breaths would be fair to turn a mistwraith into kandra-ish? Brandon Sanderson Turning a mistwraith to a kandra would be hard with Breath. It doesn't give sentience. Now, if you juice then up to Nightblood levels I think you'll see a real cognitive enhancement, but that's not exactly cost effective. Becoming a little nitpicky with words here. So please forgive me. Sentience and sapience are totally different. Sentience is something that the ape already has. I feel like Sentience is almost a you have it or you dont sort of thing. Sapience is consciousness and the ability to reason, that is something that apes already have. In this case you aren't trying to give anything to them but enhance what they have already. However, perhaps the more direct route, and far less costly would be via copper hemalurgy. A couple of spikes of that could maybe find a gorilla at Winston from Overwatch levels. Great... now I am picturing Rocket Racoons backstory in the cosmere being all hemalurgic experimentation related.
Trusk'our he/him Posted May 10, 2025 Posted May 10, 2025 On 5/8/2025 at 2:52 PM, DoctaDajman said: Becoming a little nitpicky with words here. So please forgive me. Sentience and sapience are totally different. Sentience is something that the ape already has. I feel like Sentience is almost a you have it or you dont sort of thing. Sapience is consciousness and the ability to reason, that is something that apes already have. In this case you aren't trying to give anything to them but enhance what they have already. True. I'd actually argue that Breath does grant sentience, as inanimate objects Awakened are capable of sensing and interacting with the world around them in a meaningful way and even Awakeners have their perception changed and enhanced. Sapience not being granted (most of the time) makes more sense though, as it doesn't give a lot of higher cognitive functions to type III and IV BioChromatic entities. On 5/8/2025 at 2:52 PM, DoctaDajman said: However, perhaps the more direct route, and far less costly would be via copper hemalurgy. A couple of spikes of that could maybe find a gorilla at Winston from Overwatch levels. Great... now I am picturing Rocket Racoons backstory in the cosmere being all hemalurgic experimentation related. That would probably be the best route to take in granting true sapience to an animal, though I'm sure Elantrians can do it too.
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