Lashings

[CalamityBorn]

I'm currently reading the third book of the storm light archives (Oath bringer), so I don't know everything that happens in the series. For lashings, how much can you control them, can you control how long they last and the strength of them, or is it just like the more storm light you put in the stronger it is. For example, if i wanted to create a boomerang thing, could I make two lashings, one with a force of like two and a duration of 5 seconds, and also create one with the force of one, but the duration of 10 seconds. Or would I need to make multiple lashings to increase the force or duration. I just the physics of lashing is interesting.

[Treamayne]

 

7 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

51 minutes ago, CalamityBorn said:

I'm currently reading the third book of the storm light archives (Oath bringer), so I don't know everything that happens in the series. For lashings, how much can you control them, can you control how long they last and the strength of them, or is it just like the more storm light you put in the stronger it is. For example, if i wanted to create a boomerang thing, could I make two lashings, one with a force of like two and a duration of 5 seconds, and also create one with the force of one, but the duration of 10 seconds. Or would I need to make multiple lashings to increase the force or duration. I just the physics of lashing is interesting.

@CalamityBorn
So

A Full lashing isn’t something you can change

This is essentially what a lashing is:

A ) First, it applies a force equal opposite to gravity, cancelling it out.

B ) Second, it applies a force equal to gravity in the direction of the lashing.

However, you can use relative Lashings - given some positive number x, which would be the modifier (i.e. A half lashing would have a x of 0.5)

i) If x > 1,  the magnitude of both forces is multiplied by b

ii) Otherwise, only the force defined by B would by multiplied by x.

Not entirely correct - there is no force applied that is opposite to the force of Gravity. The lashing is (temporarity) severing gravitational connection to the planet such that the lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that is affecting the person or thing. WoB:

Spoiler

AonarFaileas

That's just an issue of phrasing. As Lashings work by creating localized gravitational forces (don't think, it's magic ) it would have created a localized gravitational force of approximately 0.63Gs upwards relative to Szeth's current position on Roshar, which after competition from Roshar's 0.7Gs of gravity, would have left Szeth feeling only 0.07Gs, or, one tenth of the regular gravitational force.  

Peter Ahlstrom

No. Lashing is not a vector addition to the planet's gravity. When you use a Lashing, you dismiss the planet's gravity's influence on you entirely.

AonarFaileas

So it would have been a 9/20ths (45%) Lashing, then?  (0.7-0.7*0.45*2=0.07)

Or do Lashings completely cancel out gravity and then reapply the gravitational force at a different strength?

Peter Ahlstrom

The general rule when you do a Basic Lashing is that it replaces all other Basic Lashings (including the planet's gravity) on you or the object. The default Basic Lashing strength is 1 Roshar gravity.

As you get more practiced you can use partial lashings or multiple Lashings, or (Kaladin does this accidentally one time) NOT dismiss the previous Lashings entirely, so that different Lashings are pulling in different directions. But usually when someone does a Lashing, you should assume that Lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that currently exists for that person or thing.

Miscellaneous 2014 (Oct. 10, 2014)

Additional WoBs (Mistborn Era 2 minor spoilers):

Spoiler

Quote

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MoriWillow

Hello, I hope this message finds you well. I was wondering if you might be able to answer a question. Was going back through the Stormlight books in prep for Rhythm of War, and I realized I didn't actually understand what was happening with the Stormlight when someone used a Basic Lashing. What actually happens to the Stormlight in the creation and maintenance of a Basic Lashing? (Especially when someone is Lashing themselves?)

Brandon Sanderson

Whew. It's complicated. Basically, the magic is persuading the Lashed object that it is not actually bound to the gravity of the planet--but to the gravity of a supermassive object in the direction indicated. (But which doesn't actually exist.) Imagine it as a Lightweaving that creates an illusion, but the illusion is of something massive that only is seen by the Spiritual aspect of the Lashed object/individual.

It works pretty well inside of the cosmere's magical framework, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you approach it from the physics of our realm.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020)

Bat_Mannington

If a Windrunner lashed Wax upwards, could he dump all of his weight into his metalminds and be unaffected or would the lashing affect his clothes and whatever else he had on him too?

Brandon Sanderson

Wax could mitigate the effect (unless he was in a vacuum) but not eliminate it completely.

faragorn

Vacuum or freefall?

It can be easy to confuse them in the context of surface to orbit.

Brandon Sanderson

I was talking about a Vacuum, but it's good to clarify. What I'm saying is that without wind resistance, his mass doesn't matter--and the books have established that what Wax does is a freakish transformation of his mass, not just his weight.

Kaladin changes how much gravity pulls on someone, and in what direction. Wax (basically, it's more complex than this) changes how much mass he has. The two, then, have some very distinctive effects.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 5, 2015)

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shinarit?

There is that scene where Kaladin takes a sharp turn at high speeds and he almost blacks out. That is normal for jet pilots, since they experience high G forces when their airplane tries to accelerate them by their backs and bottoms.

But Lashing doesn't work that way, it generates fake gravity. Accelerating your whole body shouldn't cause you anything, you can't even feel it.

Is this something that is an admitted physics hiccup or I misunderstood this kind of Investiture usage?

Brandon Sanderson

This one is actually in the process of flux, as I do more research on the effects of acceleration (including interviews with fighter pilots, which has been fun.) Basically, I realized I needed to beef up my understanding of all this, and then make some decisions on exactly how this all works, because I've been relying on instinct too much in some of these sequences.

So...that's a RAFO, I'm afraid. More because I'm still tweaking some of the little details of how I want this all to work. (In ways that become increasingly relevant as I look forward toward things like Windrunners in space.)

There are a ton of details to consider, even if I eventually hand-wave some of it with the magic. (For example, the heart pumping blood in a high-g environment. How does that interact, if at all, with stormlight? And the direct oxygenation of the brain implied by not needing to breathe while holding stormlight...)

We have several very large math-ish projects going on behind the scenes.

Phoenixdown

I think it depends on if lashing independently impacts each atom within your body simultaneously, or if it is only a subset.

Brandon Sanderson

There's one important fact you're not considering, but which is vital: reader expectation.

One of the questions I have to ask myself is this: What will the reader expect to happen? How will they expect to feel? Granted, none of us have ever flown like this before--but we generally imagine similar things, similar feelings.

As a writer, one thing I need to balance is when I go against reader expectations and when I don't. Going against the expectations can be interesting, but often takes a large burden of words and explanation to keep reminding them something is not how they'd imagine it to be.

For example, it took a relatively large amount of reader attention (and explanation) to keep reminding people in Mistborn that plants weren't green and the sky wasn't blue. In many ways, making something new (like a chull) is easier on readers than making something familiar into something strange (like the horses in Dragonsteel, which were smaller than Earth horses--and kept causing confusion problems in my alpha readers.)

As annoying as this example can me, this is why Lucas had sound, fire, gravity, etc in space. Starships banking in formation felt real to the viewers, even if it didn't make sense in context. I hope to not go that far, but these questions are something in my mind.

I try to be careful not to remove the sensations of magic, in order to keep the movements of characters grounded. Windrunning has left me having to decide how far I want to go with things like this, in order to preserve the visceral feelings for the reader.

General Reddit 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

 

Quote

could I make two lashings, one with a force of like two and a duration of 5 seconds, and also create one with the force of one, but the duration of 10 seconds.

If a Radiant were to get practiced enough with Surgebinding to be able to use two different lashings without the second cancelling the first (as the first WoP above says is possible with practice) then this should be possible since the amount of stormlight used in the lashing determines duration. The problem then becomes how fast you want it to act, because if you are using multiple lashings (for increased acceleration) then actually holding on to the object long enough to apply the different directions will be a problem.

Hope that helps.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

@CalamityBorn
So

A Full lashing isn’t something you can change

This is essentially what a lashing is:

A ) First, it applies a force equal opposite to gravity, cancelling it out.

B ) Second, it applies a force equal to gravity in the direction of the lashing.

However, you can use relative Lashings - given some positive number x, which would be the modifier (i.e. A half lashing would have a x of 0.5)

i) If x > 1,  the magnitude of both forces is multiplied by b

ii) Otherwise, only the force defined by B would by multiplied by x.

 

That said, you can enact multiple Lashings on one thing - the only rule with this is that the forces defined in A will never add up to be more than gravity.

This, however, will be instinctual, so you do have direct control over this.

 

About duration…

My fist instinct is that they all have the same duration, because if you pump more investiture into it, it’s going to be going faster and therefore taking in more investiture. (This in itself is prolly not accurate - the values may not increase directly proportionally.)

However, it’s also gonna leak out at some rate - so it will depend also upon the rate of leakage - that rate might, in turn, depend on surface area, volume, and investiture.

The bottom line, however, is that it is too complicated to intuitively enact a given duration - with enough maths, you could do it, but otherwise, you’re stuck with intuitive magnitude.

 

Edited April 26, 2025 by SpiritOfWrath

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

 

Not entirely correct - there is no force applied that is opposite to the force of Gravity. The lashing is (temporarity) severing gravitational connection to the planet such that the lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that is affecting the person or thing. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

AonarFaileas

That's just an issue of phrasing. As Lashings work by creating localized gravitational forces (don't think, it's magic ) it would have created a localized gravitational force of approximately 0.63Gs upwards relative to Szeth's current position on Roshar, which after competition from Roshar's 0.7Gs of gravity, would have left Szeth feeling only 0.07Gs, or, one tenth of the regular gravitational force.  

Peter Ahlstrom

No. Lashing is not a vector addition to the planet's gravity. When you use a Lashing, you dismiss the planet's gravity's influence on you entirely.

AonarFaileas

So it would have been a 9/20ths (45%) Lashing, then?  (0.7-0.7*0.45*2=0.07)

Or do Lashings completely cancel out gravity and then reapply the gravitational force at a different strength?

Peter Ahlstrom

The general rule when you do a Basic Lashing is that it replaces all other Basic Lashings (including the planet's gravity) on you or the object. The default Basic Lashing strength is 1 Roshar gravity.

As you get more practiced you can use partial lashings or multiple Lashings, or (Kaladin does this accidentally one time) NOT dismiss the previous Lashings entirely, so that different Lashings are pulling in different directions. But usually when someone does a Lashing, you should assume that Lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that currently exists for that person or thing.

Miscellaneous 2014 (Oct. 10, 2014)

Additional WoBs (Mistborn Era 2 minor spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

If a Radiant were to get practiced enough with Surgebinding to be able to use two different lashings without the second cancelling the first (as the first WoP above says is possible with practice) then this should be possible since the amount of stormlight used in the lashing determines duration. The problem then becomes how fast you want it to act, because if you are using multiple lashings (for increased acceleration) then actually holding on to the object long enough to apply the different directions will be a problem.

Hope that helps.

Oh

Ye

I meant to put a customary “This is guesstimation”

[CalamityBorn]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

 

Not entirely correct - there is no force applied that is opposite to the force of Gravity. The lashing is (temporarity) severing gravitational connection to the planet such that the lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that is affecting the person or thing. WoB:

  Hide contents

AonarFaileas

That's just an issue of phrasing. As Lashings work by creating localized gravitational forces (don't think, it's magic ) it would have created a localized gravitational force of approximately 0.63Gs upwards relative to Szeth's current position on Roshar, which after competition from Roshar's 0.7Gs of gravity, would have left Szeth feeling only 0.07Gs, or, one tenth of the regular gravitational force.  

Peter Ahlstrom

No. Lashing is not a vector addition to the planet's gravity. When you use a Lashing, you dismiss the planet's gravity's influence on you entirely.

AonarFaileas

So it would have been a 9/20ths (45%) Lashing, then?  (0.7-0.7*0.45*2=0.07)

Or do Lashings completely cancel out gravity and then reapply the gravitational force at a different strength?

Peter Ahlstrom

The general rule when you do a Basic Lashing is that it replaces all other Basic Lashings (including the planet's gravity) on you or the object. The default Basic Lashing strength is 1 Roshar gravity.

As you get more practiced you can use partial lashings or multiple Lashings, or (Kaladin does this accidentally one time) NOT dismiss the previous Lashings entirely, so that different Lashings are pulling in different directions. But usually when someone does a Lashing, you should assume that Lashing's effect is the only "gravity" that currently exists for that person or thing.

Miscellaneous 2014 (Oct. 10, 2014)

Additional WoBs (Mistborn Era 2 minor spoilers):

  Hide contents

 

 

If a Radiant were to get practiced enough with Surgebinding to be able to use two different lashings without the second cancelling the first (as the first WoP above says is possible with practice) then this should be possible since the amount of stormlight used in the lashing determines duration. The problem then becomes how fast you want it to act, because if you are using multiple lashings (for increased acceleration) then actually holding on to the object long enough to apply the different directions will be a problem.

Hope that helps.

So, does this works differently than self-lashing? If I remember correctly, there have been times when Kaladin lashes himself in a direction multiple times to increase his speed. Could he only lash himself multiple times because they were all in the same direction or is there something else im missing.

[Treamayne]

21 minutes ago, CalamityBorn said:

So, does this works differently than self-lashing? If I remember correctly, there have been times when Kaladin lashes himself in a direction multiple times to increase his speed. Could he only lash himself multiple times because they were all in the same direction or is there something else im missing.

Bolded is correct - multiple lashings in one direction stack, Lashings in a new direction replace the previous direction. A good example is the RoW Fight Scene in Ch 6, as Kaladin uses repeated lashings in slightly different direction to create smooth turns. . .

[CalamityBorn]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Bolded is correct - multiple lashings in one direction stack, Lashings in a new direction replace the previous direction. A good example is the RoW Fight Scene in Ch 6, as Kaladin uses repeated lashings in slightly different direction to create smooth turns. . .

Ok thank you, i appreciate the help.

[CalamityBorn]

Would lashing yourself down once do anything? Because you said it removes the gravity then pulls you that direction with the force of gravity, so lashing yourself downwards would essentially replace gravity with gravity in the same direction?

[Kansas Stormcursed he/him]

15 minutes ago, CalamityBorn said:

Would lashing yourself down once do anything? Because you said it removes the gravity then pulls you that direction with the force of gravity, so lashing yourself downwards would essentially replace gravity with gravity in the same direction?

Pretty much

[CalamityBorn]

27 minutes ago, Kaladin Stormcursed said:

Pretty much

I think that's funny idk why

[Treamayne]

20 hours ago, CalamityBorn said:

Would lashing yourself down once do anything? Because you said it removes the gravity then pulls you that direction with the force of gravity, so lashing yourself downwards would essentially replace gravity with gravity in the same direction?

"Down" is, very rarely, actually aligned to the Core of the Planet, so it would probably come down to Intent and the context of the situation.  For example, in the OB scene with Moash (spoilers)

 

Spoiler

If he had access to lashings when he fights Leshwi - he could have used a single lashing down to negate her lashing sending him up. . .

 

Edited April 30, 2025 by Treamayne
Spoiler/SPAG

[CalamityBorn]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

"Down" is, very rarely, actually aligned to the Core of the Planet, so it would probably come down to Intent and the context of the situation.  (For example, in the OB scene where Moash kills Leshwi - he could have used a single lashing down to negate her lashing sending him up. . . )

Im not there yet lol

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, CalamityBorn said:

Im not there yet lol

I'm so sorry the notional example included a spoiler (Moash does not have Lashings - he's not a Windrunner). I've fixed my post but recognize it is too late for the spoiler part of the notional example. For some reason I thought your post said end of Oathbringer when it was early Oathbringer.

Edited April 30, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[CalamityBorn]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm so sorry the notional example included a spoiler (Moash does not have Lashings - he's not a Windrunner). I've fixed my post but recognize it is too late for the spoiler part of the notional example. For some reason I thought your post said end of Oathbringer when it was early Oathbringer.

It's completely fine, now I have something to look forward to