Identity Compatibility and Powers

[Trusk'our he/him]

Identity is an important concept for harnessing Investiture. A Feruchemist cannot tap another Feruchemist's Metalmind because they have different Identities. 

So, how is it that powers with Identities independent from a person can be used by them? 

Radiant Spren and Aviar have their own Identities, and Unsealed Metalminds have even more an Identity than regular Metalminds! (Hemalurgic spikes have an Identity too, but they're a whole separate beast) 

I think that there must be something more going on. 

We see that Ruin and Preservation, despite being held by different Vessels and having opposite Intents were capable of working together to create Scadrial. I believe that a similar phenomenon happened when Navani merged Stormlight and Voidlight to create Voidlight- by tweaking both of their Tones, their Identities, they were able to be alloyed into a form that could make them compatible. 

We even know Resonances are supposed to be an extrapolation of Shards blending together, just on an incredibly small scale. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309-miscellaneous-2016/#e8115

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

 

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.

So, here's my hypothesis: when a Spren bonds a person or an Unsealed Metalmind is used, the Spiritweb of the person and the power being bonded both change slightly, just enough that they can use Connection to bridge souls and become a sort of chimeric entity. Just like the Tones of Stormlight and Voidlight needing to be tweaked to merge into Warlight. 

This may also be why there is an upper limit to the number of bonds you can have at any given time. If Resonances get washed out by too many interactions, then so would Identity alloying, assuming it uses similar underlying principles.

 

While on the topic of Identity, I feel it wise to address the two other methods of cooperation. 

Breaths and natural powers from Allomancy and Feruchemy seem different. They aren't independent. They are more a part of you than a fully independent being or construct, less of an independent Identity (though Breaths carry "some things" with them and Metallic Arts I think may still have an Identity/Connection linked to their Shardic Intents and their specific powers). 

Hemalurgic spikes are a bit funkier. I think that they either work by bypassing Identity all together or maybe by breaking down/suppressing the bearer's Identity but not (usually) changing their own. 

Ruin is more yell than listen, more invasive than receptive. Not changing their own Identity could explain why spikes don't interfere with Unsealed Metalminds (Set members with three spikes still using weight medallions in BoM), why Resonances don't show up with them, and why Identity contamination prevents Compounding via Hemalurgy- if the spikes stick to affecting their host and not each other, they'd probably have a hard time forming Resonances and wouldn't suffer from interference like malleable, symbiotic bonds would. 

Basically, my thought is that most independent powers like Spren, Aviar, and Unsealed Metalminds work with you, Breaths and natural Metalborn powers work as a part of you, and spikes work on you.

[ChickenBonanza]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Basically, my thought is that most independent powers like Spren, Aviar, and Unsealed Metalminds work with you, Breaths and natural Metalborn powers work as a part of you, and spikes work on you.

That’s a pretty apt succinction, I think.

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

believe that a similar phenomenon happened when Navani merged Stormlight and Voidlight to create Voidlight- by tweaking both of their Tones, their Identities, they were able to be alloyed into a form that could make them compatible.

How does random loose Investitutere have Identity, I wonder? To me, Identity was always the differentiation of one individual’s Investiture from another. Would Stormlight be aligned to Tanavast, or perhaps the pseudo-Identity of the Shard of Honor, assuming that Shard has not become truly sentient?

Personally, I would think Intent would cause the expected misalignements with foreign magics, but perhaps that would be entirely Identity-related. Does Unkeyed loose Investiture retain Intent?

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

when a Spren bonds a person or an Unsealed Metalmind is used, the Spiritweb of the person and the power being bonded both change slightly, just enough that they can use Connection to bridge souls and become a sort of chimeric entity.

This was how I always saw such things. At least for Nahel bonds. With literal merging of souls. If such a thing were a scale, Nahel Bonds with Truesren would be far and away the highest of such, followed perhaps by Aviar, Luhel Bonds, and Unsealed Metalminds. Perhaps even in that order.

How such things interact with Identity is an interesting subject. I am inclined to say something along the lines of ‘more bonding = less separation of Identity in bonded portion of soul.’ Or something like that.

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This may also be why there is an upper limit to the number of bonds you can have at any given time. If Resonances get washed out by too many interactions, then so would Identity alloying,

Thing is, in most Bonds, who knows how well Identities ‘alloy,’ and how does such limit further Bonding? Unsealed Metalminds seem to conflict greatly with eachother, possibly from Identity confliction, though others do not seem so limited. Like with Aviar, or even Hemalurgic spikes, if such a thing could be considered a Bond. (Powers from differing spikes might not mesh well with one another, but the only real thing preventing the addition of more is possessing too many and dying.)

Regarding Truespren Bonds, I’ve always seen the difficulties in forming multiple to derive from the limitations of the Invested souls from gaining more power, not necessarily Identity conflictions. Like how Truespren form Bonds easier with ‘broken’ people—those with ‘cracks’ in the Spiritweb. Though, of course, cannot be sure of how Identity interacts with such Bonding, and how extensively it applies. The whole point of this post, ain’t it?

Resonances, I would say, would be limited in certain circumstances by Identity. Most often, with an array of powers, it’s a question of ‘Spiritual space.’ As in, the Spiritweb cannot and does not stretch potentially endlessly. It’s a container filled partially by the necessities of the soul, and partially by something extra. Yet, it theoretically possible for a spike to form a Resonance.

Spoiler

Questioner

As far as Hemalurgy, when you give that-- when it's done to somebody, would that create a new resonance?

Brandon Sanderson

It's possible that it could. Though I'm gonna say, most of the time, no... Lots of things are possible, but I'll give you a "mostly no" on that one.

Questioner

What about savantism? Is that possible with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

Granted, such might not take the differences of Era 2 Hemalurgy into account. (Sazed’s preference for Preservation might lessen Hemalurgy’s aspects. Before, Identity might’ve been damaged more when stolen, or perhaps receiving powers better integrated in exchange for more spiritual damage. Who knows.)So, Resonances might be significantly impacted by Identity. An intermingling of powers is necessary, after all, and separate Identities would logically impede that. However, in the natural soul, the powers present would inherently all share the Identity of whoever they are attached to.

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

(though Breaths carry "some things" with them and Metallic Arts I think may still have an Identity/Connection linked

Thing about this, is that I instinctively want to say ‘no,’ but things like Unkeyed Investiture force me to say ‘maybe, probably.’

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgic spikes are a bit funkier. I think that they either work by bypassing Identity all together or maybe by breaking down/suppressing the bearer's Identity but not (usually) changing their own. 

Ruin is more yell than listen, more invasive than receptive. Not changing their own Identity could explain why spikes don't interfere with Unsealed Metalminds (Set members with three spikes still using weight medallions in BoM), why Resonances don't show up with them, and why Identity contamination prevents Compounding via Hemalurgy- if the spikes stick to affecting their host and not each other, they'd probably have a hard time forming Resonances and wouldn't suffer from interference like malleable, symbiotic bonds would. 

I think this aligns to my interpretation, mostly. That Hemalurgic Spikes—really just the powers stored inside them, technically. The metal itself would not possess Identity, I would think—possess their own shreds of Identity, and maintain that separate Identity even while attached to a Spiritweb. Would make forming Resonances harder, and prevent Hemalurgically-derived powers from working together in such ways as Compounding. Two entirely separate Identities practically act like an Allomancer trying to burn someone else’s Metalmind. Perhaps a natural Allomancer with a relevant Hemalurgically-derived Feruchemical power could achieve Compounding, even in Era 2. That Feruchemy, even with a conflicting Identity, would still be storing an attribute belonging to the Allomancer. Perhaps not though. Perhaps even the slightest mismatch shuts the whole process down.

Once again, I must call Unsealed Metalminds weird. Their Identities interact to a degree with their host that they prevent other Unsealed Metalminds from being used. Does it take the space of a certain process, wherein only one thing can apply? Who knows.

lotta ‘maybes’ in here, gosh

Edited April 22, 2025 by ChickenBonanza

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/22/2025 at 6:07 PM, ChickenBonanza said:

How does random loose Investitutere have Identity, I wonder? To me, Identity was always the differentiation of one individual’s Investiture from another. Would Stormlight be aligned to Tanavast, or perhaps the pseudo-Identity of the Shard of Honor, assuming that Shard has not become truly sentient?

Personally, I would think Intent would cause the expected misalignements with foreign magics, but perhaps that would be entirely Identity-related.

I think Identity itself can have a couple distinct components relating to who a given Investiture belongs to.

A person's Investiture obviously has an Identity keyed to them, as we see with Metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes. However, I suspect that Investiture is also keyed to the Shard (and possibly planet). In WaT one of the Ghostblood agents mentions that they now know Investiture can be blanked of its Identity, presumably relating to Navani's creation of Warlight, which relies on changing two Lights' Tones to make them compatible.

Spoiler

Mraize didn't reply, instead sighting his target and loosing. He finally hit the red center circle.

"We should be working on our plan," Icy Tongue said, "to transport Stormlight offworld, now that we know it can be blanked of Identity and transferred between realms. How does chasing down some ancient spren further Master Thaidakar's orders to provide him a renewable source of Investiture?"

WaT, pg. 241

Given my previous theory on what Identity is, and how it's essentially a personalized Rhythm/Tone of sorts, I think that an Investiture's Tone is a reflection of its shared Identity with its parent Shard.

Quote

Does Unkeyed loose Investiture retain Intent?

I think so. I'm guessing that's why Ruin couldn't sense his lost Atium, though it still was of his essence- a fully severed Connection and Identity caused by Preservation's meddling, but not a true loss of Intent.

On 4/22/2025 at 6:07 PM, ChickenBonanza said:

Thing is, in most Bonds, who knows how well Identities ‘alloy,’ and how does such limit further Bonding? Unsealed Metalminds seem to conflict greatly with eachother, possibly from Identity confliction, though others do not seem so limited. Like with Aviar, or even Hemalurgic spikes, if such a thing could be considered a Bond. (Powers from differing spikes might not mesh well with one another, but the only real thing preventing the addition of more is possessing too many and dying.)

Regarding Truespren Bonds, I’ve always seen the difficulties in forming multiple to derive from the limitations of the Invested souls from gaining more power, not necessarily Identity conflictions. Like how Truespren form Bonds easier with ‘broken’ people—those with ‘cracks’ in the Spiritweb. Though, of course, cannot be sure of how Identity interacts with such Bonding, and how extensively it applies. The whole point of this post, ain’t it?

Resonances, I would say, would be limited in certain circumstances by Identity. Most often, with an array of powers, it’s a question of ‘Spiritual space.’ As in, the Spiritweb cannot and does not stretch potentially endlessly. It’s a container filled partially by the necessities of the soul, and partially by something extra. Yet, it theoretically possible for a spike to form a Resonance.

You have a good point.

Returned would have a harder time bonding a Spren, mostly because they're already Invested. So, it may be less a matter of a true Resonance in how the power becomes accessible to a person.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e69

Argent

Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

Argent

And they have a lot of it.

Brandon Sanderson

And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--

I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--

Argent

There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Argent

So, possible but difficult is--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

There is also the matter of Twinborn having access to two separate powers, but those powers must be used before a Resonance can be formed.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9494

yulerule

Okay, so Twinborn have [resonances], but full Mistborn don't, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

yulerule

So then I assume that a nonmagical person, like someone who doesn't have magic, holding the Bands of Mourning will not have no perks.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say they would not.

yulerule

Will a Twinborn that's holding the Bands of Mourning still have their original perk?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

yulerule

Or, if a Ferring is holding the Bands, and they use just one ability, will they develop a perk, tied to the one second ability they are using?

Brandon Sanderson

The longer they use it, the more likely that this is to happen.

yulerule

Using Investiture a lot over a long period changes your Spiritweb. So what happens if a nonmagical uses the Bands for a while?

Brandon Sanderson

Same thing that would happen to someone else, um, it would have a definite effect on them. *laughter* It would change them, as... in similar ways. Not exactly the same, but in similar ways.

So, perhaps bonding isn't quite like an actual Resonance, though I still think Identities get tweaked to facilitate them.

On 4/22/2025 at 6:07 PM, ChickenBonanza said:

I think this aligns to my interpretation, mostly. That Hemalurgic Spikes—really just the powers stored inside them, technically. The metal itself would not possess Identity, I would think—possess their own shreds of Identity, and maintain that separate Identity even while attached to a Spiritweb. Would make forming Resonances harder, and prevent Hemalurgically-derived powers from working together in such ways as Compounding. Two entirely separate Identities practically act like an Allomancer trying to burn someone else’s Metalmind. Perhaps a natural Allomancer with a relevant Hemalurgically-derived Feruchemical power could achieve Compounding, even in Era 2. That Feruchemy, even with a conflicting Identity, would still be storing an attribute belonging to the Allomancer. Perhaps not though. Perhaps even the slightest mismatch shuts the whole process down.

That's an interesting thought regarding a natural Allomancer trying to Compound with stolen Feruchemy.

Though, the original Feruchemist's Identity is still present and is mooshed together with the Hemalurgist's, preventing it from being tapped by someone sharing the old Feruchemist's Identity. I don't think this would allow Compounding then, because Identity is still interfering to a large degree.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e872

Lucadaw

If someone used Hemalurgy to take someones Feruchemical abilities would they be able to use that persons personal metalminds? Most relevantly perhaps to take that person's knowledge from their copperminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Lucadaw

If someone stored their identity in an aluminium metalmind, then had their powers and metalminds stolen via Hemalurgy, then the person who took the powers used the aluminium metalmind to draw out the first persons identity would it permanently overwrite their personality with the original persons ? ( would kind of be a long winded way of stealing someone else's body and becoming immortal )

Brandon Sanderson

All Identity questions are a RAFO until I deal with it more in the books. (Sorry.)

WeiryWriter (in response to the first answer)

If the spike granting Feruchemy were to be reforged/split into two distinct spikes which are then implanted into two different people, could those two people "share" a metalmind (as in actually be able to tap something the other stored and vice versa?).

Brandon Sanderson

It's complicated, but no.

There would be too much of the other person mixed in. Both could use the metalminds of the person the Feruchemy was stolen from, but when they made their own, their own Identity would "muddy" the creation.

 

[Oraiyu]

On 4/22/2025 at 3:37 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgic spikes are a bit funkier. I think that they either work by bypassing Identity all together or maybe by breaking down/suppressing the bearer's Identity but not (usually) changing their own. 

From the Coppermind:

Quote

Someone who has been granted Feruchemical abilities via Hemalurgy can access the metalminds of the Feruchemist whose abilities were stolen, presumably because they obtain some portion of the original person's Identity in the spike... 

... More generally, Hemalurgy can overwrite anything attached to the soul, including Identity.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Identity

As I understand it, the spikes literally rip out the part of the spiritweb associated with the donors power + a bit of associated Identity. On application, it forcefully splice it with the recipient's spiritweb and overwrites their Identity, applying the donors bit of Identity to the extent and in a way that the recipient can use the power. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

From the Coppermind:

As I understand it, the spikes literally rip out the part of the spiritweb associated with the donors power + a bit of associated Identity. On application, it forcefully splice it with the recipient's spiritweb and overwrites their Identity, applying the donors bit of Identity to the extent and in a way that the recipient can use the power. 

That explanation would also make sense.

If a person received two Hemalurgic spikes (or one if they're already Metalborn), each bearing an Allomantic or Feruchemical power of the same metal, it would should make their Spiritweb compatible with the new abilities.

I suppose the weirdness then would be that the spikes don't change other spikes' Identity, so there's some layer of separation going on not present in natural Allomancy or Feruchemy. 

[Oraiyu]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

That explanation would also make sense.

Thanks 

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If a person received two Hemalurgic spikes (or one if they're already Metalborn), each bearing an Allomantic or Feruchemical power of the same metal, it would should make their Spiritweb compatible with the new abilities.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Would you mind clarifying? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Would you mind clarifying? 

Ah, sorry. I have a tendency to let the insane voices in my head froth out before I can process them into a coherent statement.

Since it seems like all Invested powers require some cooperation or unity of Identity to be used, Hemalurgy by that logic must require some extra weirdness with Identity to get it to work, especially as it almost always comes with its own.

If Hemalurgic spikes overwrite the recipient's Identity, splicing in their own, that would certainly explain why the person could use them- they're now part of the Hemalurgist, even if they had to forcefully make a change to their Spiritweb/Identity to do so.

In the scenario with the two spikes, let's say one carrying Allomantic pewter and the other Feruchemical pewter, the artificial Twinborn has their Identity overwritten enough to access the contents of both spikes. However, the weird thing is that the spikes don't change each other's Identities despite both being spliced into the same Spiritweb. The Identity of the original Feruchemist doesn't align with that of the original Allomancer, so they can't Compound pewter despite the Hemalurgist now holding a portion of Identity from both spikes.

[Oraiyu]

On 4/25/2025 at 12:51 PM, Trusk'our said:

However, the weird thing is that the spikes don't change each other's Identities despite both being spliced into the same Spiritweb.

It could be that Hemalurgic spikes actively maintain the spliced segment of spiritweb. But the spiritweb is a resilient thing - barring outside stimuli, it can bounce back to the way it was either immediately or over time. We've seen that explained more than once right in the books, I believe. (Don't remember where).

Now, certain arts or sources of spiritweb alteration might permanently alter the spiritweb. A Shard's former Vessel remains a Splinter - probably carrying some vestiges of their Vessel-hood.

[SPOILER TSM]

Spoiler

A Dawnshard seems leave something as well with it's former Vessels, at least for a long time

But those lasting changes are either small & vestigial, or were applied by a SUPER powerful force, and most of the benefits do not seem to last, at least as far as we know.

It could be that Hemalurgy damages the spirit web enough so it remains scarred or deformed, but it doesn't seem that the recipient retains any power if the spikes are removed. (Which is how we get creepy spiky Inquisitors for ultimate creepy menacing coolness ).

So one spike might actively repel any attempts by another spike to overwrite it's bit of spiritweb.

Edited April 27, 2025 by Oraiyu
Difference between powerful and weak sources

[Nitpicking]

We've seen at least one person remove his spike and be OK afterward, but Spook was probably also soul-healed by Harmony.

Note:

43 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

A Shard's former Vessel remains a Splinter - probably carrying some vestiges of their Vessel-hood.

Minor point, but Brandon refers to former Vessels as "slivers" (not "splinters").

A former Dawnshard also has a modified soul with remnant power and restrictions, as seen in The Sunlit Man.

[Oraiyu]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

We've seen at least one person remove his spike and be OK afterward, but Spook was probably also soul-healed by Harmony.

Never said they weren't OK, just that they wouldn't have the power granted by the removed spike, (which is indeed what happened to Spook), and that their spiritweb would probably remain damaged or altered due to the nature of Hemalurgy being of Ruin (though perhaps temporarily?) (We don't know what Spook's status would have been if Harmony hadn't fixed / leveled him up.) 

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Minor point, but Brandon refers to former Vessels as "slivers" (not "splinters").

Oops Thanks

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

A former Dawnshard also has a modified soul with remnant power and restrictions, as seen in The Sunlit Man.

See the spoiler I put in the post  Great minds n all...

Edited April 28, 2025 by Oraiyu
Clarification

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

On 4/22/2025 at 3:37 PM, Trusk'our said:

So, here's my hypothesis: when a Spren bonds a person or an Unsealed Metalmind is used, the Spiritweb of the person and the power being bonded both change slightly, just enough that they can use Connection to bridge souls and become a sort of chimeric entity. Just like the Tones of Stormlight and Voidlight needing to be tweaked to merge into Warlight. 

You're the first person I've seen that made a similar connection to my medallions theory, that they work through a sort of bond similar to Spren!

You seem to have a similar approach to investiture and invested arts as I do, if you're open to it could I get your thoughts on my theory for the mechanics of using an unsealed metalmind?

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, DracoAdamantus said:

You're the first person I've seen that made a similar connection to my medallions theory, that they work through a sort of bond similar to Spren!

You seem to have a similar approach to investiture and invested arts as I do, if you're open to it could I get your thoughts on my theory for the mechanics of using an unsealed metalmind?

 

Sure! I'm always happy when someone actually wants to listen to my rambling.