Moash and Gemstone Types

[Fauxsaurus he/him]

Building off of what happened to Moash in WaT, does anyone have theories about crystal spike gemstone types affecting Hemalurgic powers gained? For example, do we think that:

1.  The type of gemstone used to make a crystal spike affects the type powers the spiked gain? (e.g., Would embedding sapphire spikes created from a Windrunner grant Adhesion and Gravitation abilities?)
2. This WoB seems to hint that multiple powers could be harvested at once, but if that were not the case, is it more likely that only one ability could be gained?
3. If only one ability could be gained, would any given crystal spike have the capacity to grant either of a Radiant's surges? (In which case, the power transferred would ultimately be determined by the spike's placement in the host.)
   1. Note: It's been too long since I read Mistborn, so I can't recall if the insertion site on the poor soul donating their abilities affected what type of power was collected. So if someone can recall this, feel free to point it out!
4. Alternatively, since Spren are an integral part of granting Surges, would they, not their Radients, need to be used as donors?
5. Irrespective of the source of the donor, would it be possible to grant additional, alternative abilities by trapping different types of Spren in crystal spikes instead of/before/during/after skewering a donor?
6. Or would attempting to use a gemstone housing a Spren simply not work for Hemalurgy? (Similar to how a Feruchemist's stored abilities are off limits to an Allomancer attempting to burn said Metalmind due to them containing Investiture connected to another individual).

Well, that's all I have for now. Thanks for reading this far and I look forward to any discussion that may follow!

PS Special thanks to the lovely crew on this episode of the Shardcast, because despite having a less optimistic (and perhaps more realistic/informed) theory on how things might actually unfold with "Rosharan Hemalurgy", they nonetheless prompted me to share this idea (because even it turns out to be wrong, the world builder in me loves the implications and interactions of the theoretical mechanics too much not to share).

PPS To further illustrate the idea--and serve as a handy visual aid for those of us who don't have everything memorized--here's an image on gemstones and their corresponding Radiant orders from Skaa originally used on this thread.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Fauxsaurus
Re-adjusted to remove spoiler box (since spoilers are allowed in this forum).

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Fauxsaurus said:

Note: Spoilers for WaT & Mistborn Era 1.

  Hide contents

Building off of what happened to Moash in WaT, does anyone have theories about crystal spike gemstone types affecting Hemalurgic powers gained? For example, do we think that:

1.  The type of gemstone used to make a crystal spike affects the type powers the spiked gain? (e.g., Would embedding sapphire spikes created from a Windrunner grant Adhesion and Gravitation abilities?)
2. This WoB seems to hint that multiple powers could be harvested at once, but if that were not the case, is it more likely that only one ability could be gained?
3. If only one ability could be gained, would any given crystal spike have the capacity to grant either of a Radiant's surges? (In which case, the power transferred would ultimately be determined by the spike's placement in the host.)
   1. Note: It's been too long since I read Mistborn, so I can't recall if the insertion site on the poor soul donating their abilities affected what type of power was collected. So if someone can recall this, feel free to point it out!
4. Alternatively, since Spren are an integral part of granting Surges, would they, not their Radients, need to be used as donors?
5. Irrespective of the source of the donor, would it be possible to grant additional, alternative abilities by trapping different types of Spren in crystal spikes instead of/before/during/after skewering a donor?
6. Or would attempting to use a gemstone housing a Spren simply not work for Hemalurgy? (Similar to how a Feruchemist's stored abilities are off limits to an Allomancer attempting to burn said Metalmind due to them containing Investiture connected to another individual).

Well, that's all I have for now. Thanks for reading this far and I look forward to any discussion that may follow!

PS Special thanks to the lovely crew on this episode of the Shardcast, because despite having a less optimistic (and perhaps more realistic/informed) theory on how things might actually unfold with "Rosharan Hemalurgy", they nonetheless prompted me to share this idea (because even it turns out to be wrong, the world builder in me loves the implications and interactions of the theoretical mechanics too much not to share).

PPS To further illustrate the idea--and serve as a handy visual aid for those of us who don't have everything memorized--here's an image on gemstones and their corresponding Radiant orders from Skaa originally used on this thread.

 

It's alright, you don't have to put Cosmere spoilers in spoiler boxes on this forum, as it's designed for both WaT and Cosmere spoilery content.

1. Probably. Spren are attracted to and can only be trapped in certain types of gemstones, so having only certain Spren-related Investiture types being affected by gemstone type should matter.

Spoiler

https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:Navani1.jpg

2. It's kinda iffy.

Identity contamination should be a serious issue, but the Set were working on combining Hemalurgic charges.

I feel like it could be done in theory, but would require serious tweaking.

3. 1. Yes, it does matter where the donor is spiked, especially if multiple powers exist in their Spiritweb. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12283

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

4. If you're using standard Hemalurgy and want to steal a Radiant's Surgebinding, you typically must spike both.

It's usually power from the Spren, Connection from the Radiant. But multiple methods may work.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135-gencon-2017/#e3347

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

If it's gemstone Hemalurgy, I don't know. We don't have a lot of info on it yet.

5-6. I strongly suspect that Moash's spikes are simply using trapped Voidspren stapled to his Spiritweb. Less directly a part of Ruin, more a Cosmere-wide phenomenon related to the concept of Spiritweb splicing.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Fauxsaurus he/him]

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It's alright, you don't have to put Cosmere spoilers in spoiler boxes on this forum, as it's designed for both WaT and Cosmere spoilery content.

Ah, so my initial instincts were right--thank you for the clarification! (And patience with a first-time poster on this particular forum.)

 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

1. Probably. Spren are attracted to and can only be trapped in certain types of gemstones, so having only certain Spren-related Investiture types being affected by gemstone type should matter.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:Navani1.jpg

I'd forgotten about that--love the depth in this magic system (and how even the art is designed to be informative)!

 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

2. It's kinda iffy.

Identity contamination should be a serious issue, but the Set were working on combining Hemalurgic charges.

I feel like it could be done in theory, but would require serious tweaking.

Interesting. I must admit that I'm not familiar with Identity contamination, but I'll certainly be hopping into that rabbit hole. Additionally, I look forward to what sorts of shenanigan's characters from future/upcoming eras will be able to get into once they've learned & further expanded upon the potential setup in the magic systems[1].

 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

3. 1. Yes, it does matter where the donor is spiked, especially if multiple powers exist in their Spiritweb. 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12283

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Excellent, thanks for clearing that up and citing a source I'd never seen--which naturally addresses implications that I never thought of (e.g., impression leading to getting the wrong thing, or spiking the recently deceased).

 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

4. If you're using standard Hemalurgy and want to steal a Radiant's Surgebinding, you typically must spike both.

It's usually power from the Spren, Connection from the Radiant. But multiple methods may work.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135-gencon-2017/#e3347

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

If it's gemstone Hemalurgy, I don't know. We don't have a lot of info on it yet.

Wow, that sounds pretty complicated (especially given how the Spen appear in a partial/incomplete form to many in the Physical realm (at least that's how I was interpreting some of the reasons for the differences in their appearances between realms).

 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

5-6. I strongly suspect that Moash's spikes are simply using trapped Voidspren stapled to his Spiritweb. Less directly a part of Ruin, more a Cosmere-wide phenomenon related to the concept of Spiritweb splicing.

Ah, I see. Looks like I'm overdue for diving into the Spiritweb proper. There's always another secret. And by extension, more to learn .

 

In sum, thank you for the thoughtful, in-depth responses! 

 

[1] Tangentially, I've been yearning to find more SFF works where subsequent generations expand upon magic (or tech) overtime via advances in R&D being distributed more broadly throughout the populace via common knowledge and public education (i.e., feats that were once difficult or impossible to fathom in prior eras becoming common place in the future). Off the top of my head, Metal Bending in ATLoK is the only example that I can think of (but then again, it's late).

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/18/2025 at 10:06 PM, Fauxsaurus said:

Ah, so my initial instincts were right--thank you for the clarification! (And patience with a first-time poster on this particular forum.)

It's no problem. It's always a pleasure to have a new 17th Sharder, and honestly it's one of my favorite things to geek out and discuss the nitty-gritty of Cosmere mechanics.

On 4/18/2025 at 10:06 PM, Fauxsaurus said:

I'd forgotten about that--love the depth in this magic system (and how even the art is designed to be informative)!

Indeed, Fabrials are pretty cool. WaT even introduces the concept of Intent being important to new Fabrials. Previously they were all mechanical in nature, though some perception mattered, like with Spanreeds.

But having the ability to directly influence how the Fabrial performs based on thought alone is very intriguing. Reminds me think of Unsealed Metalminds.

On 4/18/2025 at 10:06 PM, Fauxsaurus said:

Interesting. I must admit that I'm not familiar with Identity contamination, but I'll certainly be hopping into that rabbit hole. Additionally, I look forward to what sorts of shenanigan's characters from future/upcoming eras will be able to get into once they've learned & further expanded upon the potential setup in the magic systems[1].

Yeah, it's a newer development that came around in TLM.

Apparently, Sazed's disposition towards Preservation over Ruin has some consequence for Hemalurgy. It no longer leaks into Spiritwebs as easily and can be outright rejected if there's too much corruption.

Hence the reason there's now a stricter limit on the number of Hemalurgic spikes a person can benefit from and their individual Identities (taken from the spikes' donors) now prevent Compounding.

There are plenty of ideas on how to overcome this, but the most common is to either grant the donor access to aluminum Feruchemy to blank their Identity before excising the desired portion of their Spiritweb, or perhaps to just use a non-lethal duralumin spike to remove Identity before taking their other power(s).

On 4/18/2025 at 10:06 PM, Fauxsaurus said:

Excellent, thanks for clearing that up and citing a source I'd never seen--which naturally addresses implications that I never thought of (e.g., impression leading to getting the wrong thing, or spiking the recently deceased).

It's also worth noting that Breaths get notably weaker when the donor is dying.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9-calamity-philadelphia-signing/#e7593

Questioner

I teach economics at Rutgers and in general I love the books but *inaudible* I like to tease him because he loves them, and say it doesn’t really make sense to have a fixed price for Breaths and it doesn’t make sense that if you give it away when you’re young, and his claim was that somewhere in the book it talks about how the Breath actually gets weaker as you get older.

Brandon Sanderson

So, dying Breaths can be much weaker, but not middle aged ones. So, you have a legitimate thing, my counter to you is, having listened to a ton of Freakonomics, economic people do not do what is logically economic, particularly in a closed system. You might find that Breaths sell for different things, or are treated differently, in other countries.

Questioner

In the Warbreaker world.

Brandon Sanderson

But I do think about these things.

Questioner

Oh no, it’s obvious you do. It’s pretty clear when you start looking at it, and that's not something...

Brandon Sanderson

Here’s the thing, there are fantasy writers who are actually economists, L.E. Modesit is the most famous one, and he-- I’ve been on panels where he’s complained about how writers, fantasy writers ignore economics, basic economics, all the time. So I try to listen at his feet a bit.

Trying to charge a spike with a dying person might suffer a similar fate, I think.

But it's way more ethical to spike someone already on Ironeye's doorstep than to spike someone in the prime of their life, I feel.

On 4/18/2025 at 10:06 PM, Fauxsaurus said:

Ah, I see. Looks like I'm overdue for diving into the Spiritweb proper. There's always another secret. And by extension, more to learn .

 

In sum, thank you for the thoughtful, in-depth responses! 

You're welcome! 

It was a blast for me to talk about the MoIs some more. Hope we can talk more again some time 

[Fauxsaurus he/him]

Quote

Indeed, Fabrials are pretty cool. WaT even introduces the concept of Intent being important to new Fabrials. Previously they were all mechanical in nature, though some perception mattered, like with Spanreeds.

But having the ability to directly influence how the Fabrial performs based on thought alone is very intriguing. Reminds me think of Unsealed Metalminds.

I remembering reading the intent part and was kicking myself because I felt it was obvious, but I never explicitly put two and two together until that moment! I think the Flamespren experiments in RoW (if I recall correctly) made me subconsciously suspicious that intent might matter just as it did in Hemalurgy.

Also, though I had not heard the term before, Unsealed Metalminds speaks perfectly to the medallion concepts (just another example of how I feel the terminology/magic systems themselves feel intuitive the more one discovers).

 

Quote

Yeah, it's a newer development that came around in TLM.

Apparently, Sazed's disposition towards Preservation over Ruin has some consequence for Hemalurgy. It no longer leaks into Spiritwebs as easily and can be outright rejected if there's too much corruption.

Hence the reason there's now a stricter limit on the number of Hemalurgic spikes a person can benefit from and their individual Identities (taken from the spikes' donors) now prevent Compounding.

There are plenty of ideas on how to overcome this, but the most common is to either grant the donor access to aluminum Feruchemy to blank their Identity before excising the desired portion of their Spiritweb, or perhaps to just use a non-lethal duralumin spike to remove Identity before taking their other power(s).

Ah, that sums up--and greatly expands upon--my understanding at the end of TLM (i.e., how aluminum/duralumin could theoretically be used to overcome those pesky identity issues). I can't find the relevant WoB at the moment, but I'm left wondering if Hemalurgy's Spiritweb leakage might increase going forward (i.e., future eras) since Preservation breaking a promise to Ruin opens up potential issues of the long foretold Discord eventually holding more sway than Harmony.

 

Quote

It's also worth noting that Breaths get notably weaker when the donor is dying.

Interesting, I didn't know that, but it makes sense! I read the eBook version of Warbreaker, which incidentally had all the annotations bundled in the back (so if that snippet of info was in there, I must have forgotten)--and those were such a fascinating read that it greatly elevated my thoughts on the novel and sucked me further into the Cosmere.

 

On 4/21/2025 at 9:46 PM, Trusk'our said:

Trying to charge a spike with a dying person might suffer a similar fate, I think.

But it's way more ethical to spike someone already on Ironeye's doorstep than to spike someone in the prime of their life, I feel.

Fascinating WoB (couldn't figure out how to quote that particular part) and naturally, I love the tradeoff between morality and potency. Hopefully we'll eventually get a video game where we can agonize over the implications of such intricacies in the vein of other systems where good guys/gals pay the price (e.g., BioShock, Dishonored, Web of Shadows, and Hogwarts Legacy to name a few).

 

On 4/21/2025 at 9:46 PM, Trusk'our said:

It was a blast for me to talk about the MoIs some more. Hope we can talk more again some time 

I feel the same on all fronts, thanks again for enlightening me and whoever stumbles across this thread!

PS I'm not sure how pervasive this idea is throughout the community, but continuing down the same vein of Moash & Hemalurgy, I found this Redditer's observations on Moash's foil fascinating.