Elantrian innate investiture and the mechanics of AonDor

[Oraiyu]

How does an Elantrian's innate investiture allow them to perform AonDor? Does it allow them to push through the Physical & open a mini perpendicularity to the Cognitive, as well as shaping said perpendicularity to suit their needs? 

Is this the only reason for them to be personally invested? 

Also, is this why Elantrians need to be so heavily invested? 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

Here I disscused using the Elantrian symbols to enter the cognitive realm, and the answer was, (Paraphrased) Unless the Aon Collopases or gets ruined, you couldn't use the aons to enter Shadesmar. Because of this, I don't think that they are exactly perpendicularities, but close!

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Oraiyu said:

How does an Elantrian's innate investiture allow them to perform AonDor? Does it allow them to push through the Physical & open a mini perpendicularity to the Cognitive, as well as shaping said perpendicularity to suit their needs? 

Is this the only reason for them to be personally invested? 

Also, is this why Elantrians need to be so heavily invested? 

We don't have the full story yet - but based on current Data, an Elantrian is heavily Invested because the peoples that populated what is now Arelon Created Elantris specifically to increase their ability to Access and use the Dor. It likely has to do with the Shaod - which does not seem to have been a part of the magic before the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion. 

References:

Spoiler

Annotations to Elantris Ch 62:

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WEAK AONS

Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris.

If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to Elantris and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

 

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Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

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Questioner

Was the wall around Elantris Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, good question! It was not Soulcast. Excellent question.

Questioner 2

So what was *inaudible* find out later, maybe?

Brandon Sanderson

Their own magic was involved in the creation of Elantris. The local magic was involved.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

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chalkonthewall

In Elantris did Elantris ever not exist? like before it was built did the Shaod choose people? and if it did was their power the same? I'm mostly asking that if they were to build another Elantris in Teod would Elantrians be just as powerful over there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a point where Elantrians didn't exist. Excellent question. The rest is a RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 20, 2016)

 

Hope that helps

[Oraiyu]

1 hour ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Here I disscused using the Elantrian symbols to enter the cognitive realm, and the answer was, (Paraphrased) Unless the Aon Collopases or gets ruined, you couldn't use the aons to enter Shadesmar. Because of this, I don't think that they are exactly perpendicularities, but close!

Thanks

However, I would say that just because it's limited does not necessarily negate the fact that it's a perpendicularity of sorts. 

Depends how you define "perpendicularity" in technical terms, I guess. To me, a perpendicularity is a bridging of realms allowing for passage between them. The details might be different for various types or magnitudes of the perpendicularity. 

Consider what the Coppermind says about what happens when [SP: Stormlight Archive] 

Spoiler

A Knight Radiant swears to an ideal

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Whenever a Radiant swears an Ideal, they Connect to their spren and to the Spiritual Realm, creating a miniature perpendicularity and allowing them to take in an influx of Investiture from the Spiritual Realm.

From this Coppermind entry

 

[Treamayne]

27 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

I would say that just because it's limited does not necessarily negate the fact that it's a perpendicularity of sorts. 

The difference is that a Perpendicularity is, by definition, peircing all three realms - such as your example (Stormlight Spoilers)

Spoiler

Swearing an Oath to the Spren in the Congnitive Connects to the Spiritual and allows the investiture to Saturate the Radiant 

However, Aons only break the barrier to the Cognitive, because that is where the Dor dwells - it is not a Perpendicularity because it does not pierce all three realms. 

WoBs (Stormlight Spoilers):

Spoiler

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TheFulgid

Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. 

TheFulgid

...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

No. 

TheFulgid

Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible. 

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

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Questioner

In the cosmere we've seen Investiture manifest in different ways all across the systems. So I was wondering, when it comes to the powers of Dalinar, is it possible for that power to open a Perpendicularity anywhere, say on Scadrial or any different planet? In a different way, where you could potentially combine all the Realms, open the doors for the Realms.

Brandon Sanderson

Let me say this very carefully. I'm being recorded now... Any time where you gather the right amount of Investiture in the right way, you are going to have kind of a version of a cosmere singularity, right? Which is where you are pulling the different Realms together into a kind of-- you are piercing between them with a large amount of Investiture. So what's happening with Dalinar is both the bug and the feature at the same time. But it is not necessarily the only way. And once things are kind of, once the Spiritual Realm is being involved, time and space don't mean anything anymore on the Spiritual Realm. That's your answer.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

For Aons, it is more that the Aon is Connecting to the Dor in the Cognitive Realm and allowing it to flow through the Aon and into the Physical realm. 

Edited April 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Oraiyu]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

The difference is that a Perpendicularity is, by definition, peircing all three realms - such as your example (Stormlight Spoilers)

  Hide contents

Swearing an Oath to the Spren in the Congnitive Connects to the Spiritual and allows the investiture to Saturate the Radiant 

However, Aons only break the barrier to the Cognitive, because that is where the Dor dwells - it is not a Perpendicularity because it does not pierce all three realms. 

WoBs (Stormlight Spoilers):

  Hide contents

 

For Aons, it is more that the Aon is Connecting to the Dor in the Cognitive Realm and allowing it to flow through the Aon and into the Physical realm. 

But an Elantrian does peirce a realm. 

I guess it depends if Brandon meant to be exclusive in his definition, or if any piercing of realms is technically a perpendicularity. 

Honestly, the WoBs you quoted don't, IMHO, rule out what the application of a limited concentration of investiture might do.

An Elantrian may focus and express a given amount of their innate investiture when they draw Aons. That might be enough to peirce through to the Cognitive, but not to the Spiritual. 

With Gravity - the same rules apply regardless of concentration amount. This results in some objects having some features of black holes but not others. Earth itself causes enough spacetime curvature to keep the moon in orbit. Yet it has a relatively reasonable escape velocity and time dilation that's basically unnoticeable. A black hole, however, has an escape velocity that makes impossible for just about anything to escape, as well as time dilation that is so extreme a distant observer sees things close to the black hole just stop at the event horizon. 

As far as astrophysicists can discern or hypothesize, neutron stars have some really weird features that black holes don't have, yet both are governed by the intensity of gravity caused by a high density of mass. 

What's the difference between a high concentration of investiture that bridges/punctures 3 realms by melding them into a sort of singularity, as opposed to a lesser concentration doing the same to only 2 realms? 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Oraiyu said:

But an Elantrian does peirce a realm. 

I guess it depends if Brandon meant to be exclusive in his definition, or if any piercing of realms is technically a perpendicularity. 

Honestly, the WoBs you quoted don't, IMHO, rule out what the application of a limited concentration of investiture might do.

An Elantrian may focus and express a given amount of their innate investiture when they draw Aons. That might be enough to peirce through to the Cognitive, but not to the Spiritual. 

With Gravity - the same rules apply regardless of concentration amount. This results in some objects having some features of black holes but not others. Earth itself causes enough spacetime curvature to keep the moon in orbit. Yet it has a relatively reasonable escape velocity and time dilation that's basically unnoticeable. A black hole, however, has an escape velocity that makes impossible for just about anything to escape, as well as time dilation that is so extreme a distant observer sees things close to the black hole just stop at the event horizon. 

As far as astrophysicists can discern or hypothesize, neutron stars have some really weird features that black holes don't have, yet both are governed by the intensity of gravity caused by a high density of mass. 

What's the difference between a high concentration of investiture that bridges/punctures 3 realms by melding them into a sort of singularity, as opposed to a lesser concentration doing the same to only 2 realms? 

This isn't that realavent, but one could argue that Elantrian's magic isn't from their innate investiture, but from a really big forgery around the (castle?) of the elantrians.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

Honestly, the WoBs you quoted don't, IMHO, rule out what the application of a limited concentration of investiture might do.

An Elantrian may focus and express a given amount of their innate investiture when they draw Aons. That might be enough to peirce through to the Cognitive, but not to the Spiritual. 

The WoBs were just two examples about Perpendicularities I could find quickly to try answering that question. Aons are a key (Focus) that creates a Connection to the Investiture it is drawing for power (the Shape being the Filter that determines the effect of the Power as it enters the physical realm). Mistborn Spoilers in WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

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tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals acts, for Allomancy, in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

 

Hope that helps

[Oraiyu]

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The WoBs were just two examples about Perpendicularities I could find quickly to try answering that question. Aons are a key (Focus) that creates a Connection to the Investiture it is drawing for power (the Shape being the Filter that determines the effect of the Power as it enters the physical realm). Mistborn Spoilers in WoB:

  Hide contents

 

 

Hope that helps

So you're saying it's more that the Dor bursts through via the filter/key/conduit that is the Aon, just that its flow is directed wherever the Aon function directs it? 

[SPOILER MB] 

Spoiler

As opposed to investing the user the self, as in Allomancy... 

Huh. Got it. 

Also interesting that, as you said, the Elantrian's extreme invested nature is just a state manufactured by the founders of Elantris just to make their use of AonDor more effective and powerful. 

I wonder if the same can be accomplished with other invested arts... 

[SPOILERS MB & SA] 

Spoiler

I feel like Raboniel, Gavilar & Kelsier would have been all over that 

 

Edited April 10, 2025 by Oraiyu
Likely characters & series

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

So you're saying it's more that the Dor bursts through via the filter/key/conduit that is the Aon, just that its flow is directed wherever the Aon function directs it? 

[SPOILER MB] 

  Hide contents

As opposed to investing the user the self, as in Allomancy... 

Mistborn Spoilers 

Spoiler

It's not that Allomancy invests the allomancer, so much as the investiture has to flow through their body to do Work; whiile an Aon is already external to teh Elantrian when it accesses the Dor.

 

15 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

I wonder if the same can be accomplished with other invested arts... 

The primary clue to this question that we have so far is:

Spoiler

DrogaKrolow

OK, I’ve got a question about AonDor.

Brandon Sanderson

Ok.

DrogaKrolow

So it's a lot like functional programing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

And my question is: could you write a higher-level language of programming with that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

Oh...

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm. But. Only an Elantrian could make it, like, work, right? Not compile but could execute the function. They would have to type it out and execute it. Like if you were just-- Even if you just gave it to them, they would have to retype it and go. But yes, you could.

DrogaKrolow

Couldn't you like-- Is there an Aon for define, definition? So like you could go and define some really long sequence of Aons and then assign it to a simple shape.

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

DrogaKrolow

Then draw the symbol, and would it work?

Brandon Sanderson

Right right, object-oriented. This is realistically plausible, you would have to write all this stuff and call the function and have this constantly in a state of kinetic Investiture. But that is reasonable. I mean it's not so far off from things they actually did with much fewer-- much fewer lines of code, if you wish, in the past. It's what Elantris itself was.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

The problem is that, based on current knowledge, the only "programming style" MoI is AonDor (SA Spoilers below), so while an Elantrian may be able to "make" something that could achieve similar effects for another MoI - it's unlikely that they could do something like Elantris for themselves. 

Spoiler

Navani's linked and chained Fabrials may be heading in a mechanically similar direction, but I still don't see a path from those the kind of effect created by Elantris' many internal Aons. 

Hope that helps

[Oraiyu]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Spoiler

It's not that Allomancy invests the allomancer, so much as the investiture has to flow through their body to do Work; whiile an Aon is already external to teh Elantrian when it accesses the Dor

 

That's what I meant. 

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Brandon Sanderson

Right right, object-oriented. This is realistically plausible, you would have to write all this stuff and call the function and have this constantly in a state of kinetic Investiture. But that is reasonable. I mean it's not so far off from things they actually did with much fewer-- much fewer lines of code, if you wish, in the past. It's what Elantris itself was.

To clarify - Does he mean that Elantris was made by the original inhabitants to be a higher-level function based in many Aon instructions? Did I get that right? 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

Does he mean that Elantris was made by the original inhabitants to be a higher-level function based in many Aon instructions? Did I get that right?

It is implied to be at least a similar construction, further clarified in this WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

The updated Elantris map (from the anniversary edition) includes a city map, and the interior of Elantris looks awfully like Aon Ela. Was it indeed designed so the streets for Ela, and if so - does this merely augment/support the giant Aon Rao, or does it have a separate effect?

Brandon Sanderson

This was designed this way! It is separate from the shape of the city itself.

Argent

But does it have an actual effect, or is it just aesthetic?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't have an effect at the moment. It might once have.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

So it seems that features from the City incorporate additional components to whatever the city-sized Aon-Fabrial the City was designed to be. 

[Oraiyu]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It is implied to be at least a similar construction, further clarified in this WoB:

  Hide contents

Argent

The updated Elantris map (from the anniversary edition) includes a city map, and the interior of Elantris looks awfully like Aon Ela. Was it indeed designed so the streets for Ela, and if so - does this merely augment/support the giant Aon Rao, or does it have a separate effect?

Brandon Sanderson

This was designed this way! It is separate from the shape of the city itself.

Argent

But does it have an actual effect, or is it just aesthetic?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't have an effect at the moment. It might once have.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

So it seems that features from the City incorporate additional components to whatever the city-sized Aon-Fabrial the City was designed to be. 

As a programmer myself, I find this all fascinating. 

Thanks

[Treamayne]

52 minutes ago, Oraiyu said:

As a programmer myself, I find this all fascinating. 

Thanks

Ditto (but long ago - Cobol and C++ 93-96; and a smattering since, but not professionally until recent use of basic and powershell batch scripting)

It's more obvious in Emperor's Soul with the way Shai links stamps (each stamp is an object, the plate "calls" the stamps, the final Stamp "calls" the plate).

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Ditto (but long ago - Cobol and C++ 93-96; and a smattering since, but not professionally until recent use of basic and powershell batch scripting)

It's more obvious in Emperor's Soul with the way Shai links stamps (each stamp is an object, the plate "calls" the stamps, the final Stamp "calls" the plate).

2 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

As a programmer myself, I find this all fascinating. 

Thanks

I to am a prgramer. When Shai does the things, I'm like: "FUNCTIONS! SHE'S MAKING FUNCTIONS WITH STAMPS"