Nohadon

[LeondeBowa]

So in the latest book dalinar has conversations with the a spirit posing as Nohadon, I've seen in this fourm a few supposing it's Valor in disguise, after rereading it seems really obvious it's Cultivation.

Nohadon was a man who was focused on building and growing the correct attitude towards ruling and eventually wrote a book on it.

It's made clear that shards need to have a connection to a person to influence them or send them visions, we know this as it was discussed by odium and moash in the previous book to have the visions of blaze sent to Kaladin.

dalinar has connections to 3 shards honour, odium and cultivation, we have no evidence of any chance for a theoretical Valor shard to have connections to him, leaving the only option to be cultivation.

It's been repeated multiple times cultivation hates acting directly, and considering this was in the middle of the contest, she may not have been allowed to act directly.

This also supports the idea that this could all still be part of cultivations plan, which I admit I just like the idea of.

WDYT?

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

woah, I never considered that Nohadon was anything other than honor's recreation of him based on memories. I admit I was kind of confused by the parts where Nohadon talks to Dalinar about Honor and Tanavast. This theory explains that so much better, I can't wait to see how her plans unfold in the next arc. I wonder if Dalinar figured that out before he passed into the beyond? 

[Nitpicking]

If you've read Dragonsteel Prime, you might agree with my contention that Nohadon acts a lot like Frost did in that unpublished, not-all-canon book.

[AonSoo he/him]

On 4/8/2025 at 4:08 PM, Obeythelaw7 said:

I admit I was kind of confused by the parts where Nohadon talks to Dalinar about Honor and Tanavast. This theory explains that so much better, I can't wait to see how her plans unfold in the next arc.

Same here.

On 4/6/2025 at 7:24 AM, LeondeBowa said:

it seems really obvious it's Cultivation.

Yeah this whole scene makes a lot more sense now that you point that out, and I always thought the Valor idea was weird because we have so much evidence that they were never on Roshar and it would be hard to have a connection to Dalinar.

[LeondeBowa]

13 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

If you've read Dragonsteel Prime, you might agree with my contention that Nohadon acts a lot like Frost did in that unpublished, not-all-canon book.

I'll admit I haven't, but I will say it's possible. Hopefully we'll get a canon dragonsteel some time soon so we can make a canon comparison

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

13 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

If you've read Dragonsteel Prime, you might agree with my contention that Nohadon acts a lot like Frost did in that unpublished, not-all-canon book.

Frost does have a non-intervention policy though. It could be him anyway but how would he have gotten there?

[Nitpicking]

On 4/11/2025 at 9:35 AM, SpartanBrigade said:

Frost does have a non-intervention policy though. It could be him anyway but how would he have gotten there?

Dragonsteel Prime is out of the Spoiler Zone, right? In DSP, Frost has a non-intervention policy and repeatedly violates it, notably by ordering the Sho Del to let the humans retreat. "They have earned their victory." He also has the draconic ability to communicate mentally with anyone in the Cosmere with no time delay, so he could commune with Dalinar without leaving Yolen. The only flaw in my crackpot theory about Nohadon being Frost would be, Dalinar doesn't have an obvious a tamu kek, which seems necessary for draconic communication. I keep wondering if I missed something in an earlier book.

This is a SPOILER for an unpublished work (not yet in the Spoiler Zone):

Spoiler

In Isles of the Emberdark we see Frost has worshipers who he spends most of his time helping.

EDIT: Frost actually said, "They have earned their retreat." I hate when I do that.

Edited April 13, 2025 by Nitpicking

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Dragonsteel Prime is out of the Spoiler Zone, right? In DSP, Frost has a non-intervention policy and repeatedly violates it, notably by ordering the Sho Del to let the humans retreat. "They have earned their victory." He also has the draconic ability to communicate mentally with anyone in the Cosmere with no time delay, so he could commune with Dalinar without leaving Yolen. The only flaw in my crackpot theory about Nohadon being Frost would be, Dalinar doesn't have an obvious a tamu kek, which seems necessary for draconic communication. I keep wondering if I missed something in an earlier book.

This is a SPOILER for an unpublished work (not yet in the Spoiler Zone):

  Hide contents

In Isles of the Emberdark we see Frost has worshipers who he spends most of his time helping.

 

Oh ok good to know. It sounds like it would be possible I just don’t think it’s him for narrative reasons. Frost’s only played a role in non-canon/unpublished work (besides his letters to Hoid) and it would feel weird for him to randomly appear at this pivotal moment. It could have been somewhat set up with Wit speaking to his sister but it still feels random and a bit out of place (plus the missing Tamu Kek)

[LeondeBowa]

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Dragonsteel Prime is out of the Spoiler Zone, right? In DSP, Frost has a non-intervention policy and repeatedly violates it, notably by ordering the Sho Del to let the humans retreat. "They have earned their victory." He also has the draconic ability to communicate mentally with anyone in the Cosmere with no time delay, so he could commune with Dalinar without leaving Yolen. The only flaw in my crackpot theory about Nohadon being Frost would be, Dalinar doesn't have an obvious a tamu kek, which seems necessary for draconic communication. I keep wondering if I missed something in an earlier book.

This is a SPOILER for an unpublished work (not yet in the Spoiler Zone):

  Reveal hidden contents

In Isles of the Emberdark we see Frost has worshipers who he spends most of his time helping.

 

Question nitpicking, did cultivation and frost have any relationship in the dragonsteel novel? Could this be then working together? They are both dragons from the same world

I do have to agree with Spartanbrigade, frost is too out of context to be a satisfying answer, but if they're acting as a catspaw for cultivation, I think it works

Edited April 12, 2025 by LeondeBowa

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Question nitpicking, did cultivation and frost have any relationship in the dragonsteel novel? Could this be then working together? They are both dragons from the same world

I do have to agree with Spartanbrigade, frost is too out of context to be a satisfying answer, but if they're acting as a catspaw for cultivation, I think it works

More Dragonsteel Prime spoilers:

Spoiler

Dragonsteel Prime takes place before the Shattering, so Cultivation didn't exist.

The context of the reveal would be the Back Five, by which time things will be different. Don't forget, Hoid was arguing with Frost way back in the epigraphs of Part Two of The Way of Kings. Confirmed by Word of Brandon. The ending of WaT is actually a related DP reference, where Hoid uses a Tamu Kek to commune with draconic spirits.

On 4/11/2025 at 11:13 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

Oh ok good to know. It sounds like it would be possible I just don’t think it’s him for narrative reasons. Frost’s only played a role in non-canon/unpublished work (besides his letters to Hoid) and it would feel weird for him to randomly appear at this pivotal moment. It could have been somewhat set up with Wit speaking to his sister but it still feels random and a bit out of place (plus the missing Tamu Kek)

That's only true at this exact instant. Isles of the Emberdark will be along any day now and Frost is an on-screen major character there, although not a main one (I don't think). Brandon is very much a planner, I would bet that he knew about Emberdark before he finished WaT.

[LeondeBowa]

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

More Dragonsteel Prime spoilers:

  Hide contents

Dragonsteel Prime takes place before the Shattering, so Cultivation didn't exist.

The context of the reveal would be the Back Five, by which time things will be different. Don't forget, Hoid was arguing with Frost way back in the epigraphs of Part Two of The Way of Kings. Confirmed by Word of Brandon. The ending of WaT is actually a related DP reference, where Hoid uses a Tamu Kek to commune with draconic spirits.

That's only true at this exact instant. Isles of the Emberdark will be along any day now and Frost is an on-screen major character there, although not a main one (I don't think). Brandon is very much a planner, I would bet that he knew about Emberdark before he finished WaT.

Nitpicking, the woman who became cultivation was a dragon who worked with Hoid to kill/separate god. Did that woman have a relationship to frost

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

4 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

More Dragonsteel Prime spoilers:

  Hide contents

Dragonsteel Prime takes place before the Shattering, so Cultivation didn't exist.

The context of the reveal would be the Back Five, by which time things will be different. Don't forget, Hoid was arguing with Frost way back in the epigraphs of Part Two of The Way of Kings. Confirmed by Word of Brandon. The ending of WaT is actually a related DP reference, where Hoid uses a Tamu Kek to commune with draconic spirits.

That's only true at this exact instant. Isles of the Emberdark will be along any day now and Frost is an on-screen major character there, although not a main one (I don't think). Brandon is very much a planner, I would bet that he knew about Emberdark before he finished WaT.

Cultivation didn’t exist yet but the Vessel Korevellium Avast the dragon did. Was Kor in Dragonsteel? I did know about the letters to Frost (I mentioned them earlier) but like I said that’s the only way Frost’s been in the story (aside from Hoid Tamu Kek dming his sister). While Brandon certainly has prior context for Dragonsteel and Isles Of Emberdark, many readers don’t. He’s said he never wants to force fans to read a different novel to understand a part of his books. For that reason I don’t think he’d go “Hey confused by this essential scene in WaT? Go buy my new novel Isles Of Emberdark coming soon!” It’s just not his style.

[Nitpicking]

6 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Nitpicking, the woman who became cultivation was a dragon who worked with Hoid to kill/separate god. Did that woman have a relationship to frost

She doesn't appear in Dragonsteel Prime. Presumably, she will appear in the actual Dragonsteel when Brandon writes it.

5 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Cultivation didn’t exist yet but the Vessel Korevellium Avast the dragon did. Was Kor in Dragonsteel? I did know about the letters to Frost (I mentioned them earlier) but like I said that’s the only way Frost’s been in the story (aside from Hoid Tamu Kek dming his sister). While Brandon certainly has prior context for Dragonsteel and Isles Of Emberdark, many readers don’t. He’s said he never wants to force fans to read a different novel to understand a part of his books. For that reason I don’t think he’d go “Hey confused by this essential scene in WaT? Go buy my new novel Isles Of Emberdark coming soon!” It’s just not his style.

We're getting into the time he predicted from the beginning, where you would in fact have to know the background. In my estimation, obviously I can't read the mind of Brandon Sanderson (just his writing).

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 4/10/2025 at 6:49 PM, AonSoo said:

Same here.

Yeah this whole scene makes a lot more sense now that you point that out, and I always thought the Valor idea was weird because we have so much evidence that they were never on Roshar and it would be hard to have a connection to Dalinar.

What evidence do we have that Valor is not on Roshar?

I actually think it would make sense for a 4th shard to be involved on Roshar, and they would need to be either Reason or Valor who Taravangian can’t locate for some reason. I think it makes sense for Valor to be hiding behind enemy lines and trying to arrange things the way they turned out at the end of WaT. It was a very bold plan to let Odium take Honor as well.

Then there is the 4th moon reference and the reference to a surge of bravery and courage that Taravangian feels when Rayse visits which is what gives him the courage to actually follow through with his plan and attack Rayse with Nightblood.

Dalinar would have built a connection with Valor over time through his study of the Way of Kings which Nohadon wrote (assuming Valor had a hand in Nohadon’s creation of the book, which I think has themes of Valor throughout), and from the conversations/special visions with Nohadon that that Stormfather is completely unaware of. Each of those visions led to Dalinar choosing to follow the suggested path from Nohadon, which arguably gives him more of a connection and alignment with the Shard.

Cultivation also seemed to be caught off guard by Odium taking up Honor as well. That move put her in particular danger/risk and she fled Roshar completely.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

What evidence do we have that Valor is not on Roshar?

I actually think it would make sense for a 4th shard to be involved on Roshar, and they would need to be either Reason or Valor who Taravangian can’t locate for some reason. I think it makes sense for Valor to be hiding behind enemy lines and trying to arrange things the way they turned out at the end of WaT. It was a very bold plan to let Odium take Honor as well.

Then there is the 4th moon reference and the reference to a surge of bravery and courage that Taravangian feels when Rayse visits which is what gives him the courage to actually follow through with his plan and attack Rayse with Nightblood.

Dalinar would have built a connection with Valor over time through his study of the Way of Kings which Nohadon wrote (assuming Valor had a hand in Nohadon’s creation of the book, which I think has themes of Valor throughout), and from the conversations/special visions with Nohadon that that Stormfather is completely unaware of. Each of those visions led to Dalinar choosing to follow the suggested path from Nohadon, which arguably gives him more of a connection and alignment with the Shard.

Cultivation also seemed to be caught off guard by Odium taking up Honor as well. That move put her in particular danger/risk and she fled Roshar completely.

I like this theory. For the bit about a 4th Shard having to be Reason or Valor, it seems like it couldn't be Reason and would have to be Valor. We get this section in WaT
 

 

"He kept his thoughts from Cultivation as she tried showing him peaceful nations on many planets. He instead was most curious about the fact that two of the Shards appeared to be missing, completely vanished from interacting with the others. Hidden. One he understood with some effort. But Valor—where had Valor gone, and how did she hide from even his eyes?"

From what I can tell he actually found Reason here meaning the only hidden Shard left is Valor. Additionally, the fact he's looking for Valor and can't find her here was important enough to seed here, I think that lends even more credit to the theory

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

44 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I like this theory. For the bit about a 4th Shard having to be Reason or Valor, it seems like it couldn't be Reason and would have to be Valor. We get this section in WaT
 

 

"He kept his thoughts from Cultivation as she tried showing him peaceful nations on many planets. He instead was most curious about the fact that two of the Shards appeared to be missing, completely vanished from interacting with the others. Hidden. One he understood with some effort. But Valor—where had Valor gone, and how did she hide from even his eyes?"

From what I can tell he actually found Reason here meaning the only hidden Shard left is Valor. Additionally, the fact he's looking for Valor and can't find her here was important enough to seed here, I think that lends even more credit to the theory

Totally agree! I’ve seen others speculate that it would be Reason because that might be a more suitable intent for Nohadon, but for the reason you shared above I agree that Reason does not seem to be totally missing in the same way that Valor is.

Plus, I believe Reason is confirmed to be the shard that went off on their own to try and just survive and stay away from all the conflicts which is completely opposed to what we are speculating this 4th shard would be doing on Roshar

[LeondeBowa]

My main argument against is that it is an out of context threat in the story, which doesn't make much sense at this point.

Also it would require the shards described to have access to a special power which is unique to them that is outside of their theme which doesn't make sense.

I would consider the idea it is frost to be more likely than another shard as the shards are so large, they influence the environment around them to the degree they cannot hide themselves.

Why if another shard is involved has there not been more signs of their influence, more than a strange moon, especially if you're insisting they were around long enough for them to have influenced Nohadon too?

Why have the other shards not been able to find him so close by?

Also how exactly was she caught off guard? All the information we had was she fled once retribution came into existence, we know future sight works on possibilities, she probably at most knew retribution was possible and could have waited ready in case it didn't.

Cultivation works as an intent for Nohadon equal or better than reason or Valor, and she has the means, motive and opportunity if she wanted to influence and grab his cognitive shadow on death

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

1 hour ago, LeondeBowa said:

My main argument against is that it is an out of context threat in the story, which doesn't make much sense at this point.

Also it would require the shards described to have access to a special power which is unique to them that is outside of their theme which doesn't make sense.

I would consider the idea it is frost to be more likely than another shard as the shards are so large, they influence the environment around them to the degree they cannot hide themselves.

Why if another shard is involved has there not been more signs of their influence, more than a strange moon, especially if you're insisting they were around long enough for them to have influenced Nohadon too?

Why have the other shards not been able to find him so close by?

Also how exactly was she caught off guard? All the information we had was she fled once retribution came into existence, we know future sight works on possibilities, she probably at most knew retribution was possible and could have waited ready in case it didn't.

Cultivation works as an intent for Nohadon equal or better than reason or Valor, and she has the means, motive and opportunity if she wanted to influence and grab his cognitive shadow on death

That's the only thing that makes me doubt this theory is that a new Shard would feel pretty out of left field since this is the Honor-Odium-Cultivation series (although if Valor is on Roshar she'd be a out of context ally not an out of context threat). That being said there have been hints that Valor could be influencing events, mainly the ones CognitiveShadow listed. As far as Valor remaining undetected it's a bit of a plot point we don't know how she's doing it. Taravangian doesn't know, Wit doesn't know, and neither do we. It's been mentioned multiple times in story that they don't know where she is or how she's hidden. The number of times it's brought up does lend credit to the theory Brandon is seeding this for the backhalf of the series. As far as there not being more signs of her influence, there have been as listed by CognitiveShadow. For changing the environment Shards can just choose not to, the don't need to Invest an area if they don't feel like it. With Cultivation being caught off guard the text says this

"Cultivation, terrified, had ejected herself from Roshar."

Cultivation didn't plan for this, she was caught completely off guard. Her exit wasn't a tactical retreat it was a terrified and unplanned for flight

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Plus, I believe Reason is confirmed to be the shard that went off on their own to try and just survive and stay away from all the conflicts which is completely opposed to what we are speculating this 4th shard would be doing on Roshar

Agreed, staying out of Shardic conflicts seems like it would align with Reason's Intent while it would be the opposite of Valor's. I think Reason being the 4th Shard's out of the question. The only question is if there's a 4th Shard and if there is it's certainly Valor

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Why have the other shards not been able to find him so close by?

Why have the other shards not been able to find Valor at all? Taravangian was super freaked out by it and did not understand why he could not detect her. That seems like a pretty relevant and heavy handed hint that something important is going on with Valor.

I also think it makes sense with the pacing of the story - we just barely hit the halfway mark of the Stormlight Archive. There are still another 5 books, and SpartanBrigade and I have shown a few different bread crumbs that could very well be hints at the possibility (even likelihood) of a 4th Shard interfering on Roshar and that the 4th Shard would have to be Valor if that is the case.

I think it would track with the way Brandon leaves little hints that don’t stand out until we get the major reveal, and then when we go back on a reread we realize it fits perfectly throughout the rest of the earlier books.

The Wind is a good example - we had no idea there was more to the Wind in the first 4 books other than wind spren and their connection to the windrunners. But if you go back and read, the Wind is always doing weird stuff around Kaladin - including blowing away his poisonous leaves when he’s in the slave cart. Little nudges here and there to help ensure that Kaladin would get to the point that he needed to be so the Wind could have him become a herald and save the spren. 

But if someone had predicted the Wind being an actual entity made from Adonalsiums investiture before the shattering, I’d have thought they were reaching haha

[Espella]

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Why have the other shards not been able to find Valor at all? Taravangian was super freaked out by it and did not understand why he could not detect her. That seems like a pretty relevant and heavy handed hint that something important is going on with Valor.

We know Harmony was able to find Valor (or at least engage in conversation with her) since he tells Hoid in the RoW letter that she seems reasonable and wants to talk to Wit again. Endowment also seems to know where Valor is and implies that the two of them are the only ones who have stuck to the agreement of only one shard per planet, though she also says that Valor doesn't want to speak to Hoid which is the opposite of what Harmony said so who knows what's going on there. To me this implies that if Valor is on Roshar it's a very recent thing (as in it probably happened during the timeframe of the books) as there would need to be time for Valor to meet with Endowment and Harmony after Hoid sent his letters before going into hiding on Roshar.

As far as Valor's relevance goes I definitely expect her to show up in the back half given that the end of Hoid's epilogue has him deciding it's probably time to go track her down once he's done in Scadrial. Given the fact that Taravangian couldn't find her, Endowment says she won't tell Hoid where she is, and Harmony mentioning that she seems reasonable and wants to talk again, there's two likely possibilities that come to my mind:

1. Valor is indeed on Roshar in deep hiding, after talking to Harmony about Hoid's letter she decided she did want to get involved and found some way to conceal herself from Odium (and possibly the other shards on Roshar), and she either lied about her plans so that Endowment wouldn't get angry at her for breaking isolation or she convinced Endowment to support her and Endowment is keeping the fact that she's on Roshar secret (which is why she refuses to tell Hoid where she is). Once we get to the back half of the series we'll start to see signs of her influence building up to the reveal that she's on Roshar and has plans.
2. Valor is not on Roshar and Hoid will be actively searching for her once he's done on Scadrial, and we'll get some interludes showing his search to set up for him finding her and bringing her in as an ally so that she doesn't just show up out of nowhere from another planet to save the day.

[LeondeBowa]

13 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

"Cultivation, terrified, had ejected herself from Roshar."
 

Had to double check this one, this is a thought made by retribution, how would they know what cultivation was feeling when they ejected.

If there was a plan, a key part of it would be to make sure retribution doesn't realise they're getting played. I don't think we can see this as reliable evidence that cultivation didn't uave this as a possible plan.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

7 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Had to double check this one, this is a thought made by retribution, how would they know what cultivation was feeling when they ejected.

If there was a plan, a key part of it would be to make sure retribution doesn't realise they're getting played. I don't think we can see this as reliable evidence that cultivation didn't uave this as a possible plan.

Fair point. I do feel like now we have a bit of an issue with Cultivation now though. It's Schrödinger's Cultivation Flaw. Either she's completely flubbed her plan and let the worst possible candidate take up Odium, ignore her lessons, kill thousands, take up Honor, kill one of Roshar's greatest champions, and lose 90% of the planet to him and his forces OR she's utterly overpowered and planned for all of this and she never failed at any step of this plan. Either a fool or a divine Mary Sue

[LeondeBowa]

I mean, I'm not trying to describe her as a Mary sue, mainly I'm trying to point out that she might not have been blindsided by this.

Completely honestly I actually like the idea it is frost on a level but all the talk I've seen around Cultivation has been an assumption that she f-ed up and I don't know why

If I'm being unkind, it honestly seems a little misogynistic

Each interaction between Todium and Cultivation has been her trying a different plan as each one fails, but we're ment to assume that she definitely couldn't have planned for this last one because????

Like Hoid don't expect it but that doesn't mean it's unpredictable

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

44 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

I mean, I'm not trying to describe her as a Mary sue, mainly I'm trying to point out that she might not have been blindsided by this.

Completely honestly I actually like the idea it is frost on a level but all the talk I've seen around Cultivation has been an assumption that she f-ed up and I don't know why

If I'm being unkind, it honestly seems a little misogynistic

Each interaction between Todium and Cultivation has been her trying a different plan as each one fails, but we're ment to assume that she definitely couldn't have planned for this last one because????

Like Hoid don't expect it but that doesn't mean it's unpredictable

It's because like you said we see her repeatedly adjust as each plan fails and she comes up with a new one but if she planned for him becoming Retribution it would kind of be like the books going "No she totally planned for all of this the whole time. She didn't fail nooooo each one of her 'losses' was all part of her master plan and she foresaw all of this." It's like how Palpatine can also see the future in the Prequels and has this grand plan that goes perfectly but he also makes a ton of really stupid decisions and mistakes but George Lucas was like "Nooooo see he can see the future this was his plan all along actually". I trust Brandon though I don't think he'd pull a George Lucas, this is just how it comes off as of now when we don't have further context

[LeondeBowa]

The shard is literally defined by her ability to plan for the future, why is it a bad thing that she succeeds about doing it?

There's a level of hostility to the idea she still has an influence I really don't understand