Tinfoil Hat Theory [WaT]

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Ok. So we all know about Dalinar opening up a perpendicularity in Oathbringer and saying “I am Unity” to Rayse/Odium, who then freaks out and says “We killed you!”

Popular explanations for this:

1. We = combo and Rayse and Odium, meant to be a callout to the growing divide between the shard’s power and vessel. Odium is referring to how they killed Honor and Dalinar wa downing Honor’s perpendicularity. I think this is a pretty plausible explanation
2. We = the group of 17 that killed Adonalsium, meaning that Dalinar’s claim as Unity had echoes of Adonalsium vibes. Combined with the idea that Nohadon could be some aspect of Adonalsium or the original Vessel’s cognitive shadow or something. I get it, but I’m not sold.

Now, what about a new way of looking at this? We know that ROdium killed a few other vessels and splintered their shards. Devotion and Dominion specifically were stuffed into the cognitive realm and created the Dor.

Is it possible that Devotion and Dominion were combined together as Unity?? And is that why Rayse has the reaction that he did at Dalinar’s statement?

Here are my reasonings:

1. The parent religion of Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (Shu-Keseg) had a central tenet of unity of all mankind, specifically the unity of “mind”
2. The two religions split off with one focusing on dominion and the other focusing on devotion. Does that give precedent for their combination being focused on Unity?
3. Shu-Keseg followers believed in a single omnipotent god named Dashu - not two separate gods
4. Dominion and Devotion are based on yin and yang which is a paradoxical unity

Not convinced yet? Harmony is the combination of Ruin and Preservation, which are supposedly opposing intents. We know that Devotion and Dominion have polarization effects on each other… I don’t think it would be outlandish for the combined intents to be held together as Unity.

Dominion as Unity of nations and Unity of people. Devotion as Unity of heart and Unity of purpose. What if they merged their shards into one singular shard and held it together as two joint forces?

Ok so if the overall premise here is true, then when Dalinar did some crazy rust and called himself Unity (not saying he literally ascended to Unity and absorbed those shards or anything like that, just that he was aligned with that specific Intent) it gave Rayse and Odium some PTSD and a call back to the whole interaction he had with Unity/Devotion/Dominion when he splintered them and stuffed them into the cognitive realm. The additional question is whether the Dor (Unity?) is becoming self aware and perhaps reaching out and asking Dalinar to “Unite them”….?

I’ve mainly been of the opinion that Valor is in Roshar making waves, but could this be possible?

Feel free to prove me wrong on all counts

Edited March 28, 2025 by CognitiveShadow
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[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

I think proving or disproving this is impossible, since it is trying to read specific intention into a single word, but I do think the general thing of "someone is going to be putting mono-God back together" is a theme we will be seeing more and more of going forwards.

Honestly, this just feels like the obvious arc when you consider the theology that is ken to Sanderson is one where the it is great there there is a single God. I am not versed in the distinctions between how members of the church of LDS handle the trinity matter compared to the other Christian churches I have experience with, but I do not know them to identify as polytheists. 

I can't know the man's hearts, I have never even seen him in the flesh, but I imagine part of why he has made such an effort at inclusivity and diversity in his books is to try to develop an argument, not in logic but in example, of how one can synthesize the attributes of a singular god who is superior to a multitude of gods.

So, yes. I think the reading where Rayse was saying "God is dead and we have killed him. How can his reincarnation be before me? We divided the body so as to ensure it could not be reassembled, as Osiris without Isis to gather his remains from the underworld." in far fewer words is a valid reading. I don't think confirmation on this is likely, but it will probably be a standout moment for setting the stage for the rebirth of God later in the grander narrative.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

6 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I think proving or disproving this is impossible, since it is trying to read specific intention into a single word, but I do think the general thing of "someone is going to be putting mono-God back together" is a theme we will be seeing more and more of going forwards.

Honestly, this just feels like the obvious arc when you consider the theology that is ken to Sanderson is one where the it is great there there is a single God. I am not versed in the distinctions between how members of the church of LDS handle the trinity matter compared to the other Christian churches I have experience with, but I do not know them to identify as polytheists. 

I can't know the man's hearts, I have never even seen him in the flesh, but I imagine part of why he has made such an effort at inclusivity and diversity in his books is to try to develop an argument, not in logic but in example, of how one can synthesize the attributes of a singular god who is superior to a multitude of gods.

So, yes. I think the reading where Rayse was saying "God is dead and we have killed him. How can his reincarnation be before me? We divided the body so as to ensure it could not be reassembled, as Osiris without Isis to gather his remains from the underworld." in far fewer words is a valid reading. I don't think confirmation on this is likely, but it will probably be a standout moment for setting the stage for the rebirth of God later in the grander narrative.

Fair points. I think it’s very reasonable to assume that Brandon’s religious worldview could influence the direction of the Cosmere, but I also think he has done a really good job of balancing multiple different religious perspectives, subverting them, and even pointing out flaws with dogmatic religious beliefs and control. Many of his stories include things that would be completely contrary to the LDS perspective and have even led to some conflict among active LDS believers who may not support him as strongly as they did in the past.

I grew up LDS but am no longer a believer or a member of the organization. I’m very familiar with the ins and outs of LDS theology and philosophy. When it comes to monotheism, it’s a little bit complicated for Mormons. The standard belief is that God/Jesus/Holy Ghost are 3 distinct and different beings that work together in complete harmony/unison and are therefore one in ‘purpose’ without literally being the same. So no trinity - instead they call these three the godhead. They also believe the whole point of living on the earth is so that we can all progress and prove ourselves to eventually become like God himself. The idea truly is (despite what some Mormon apologists may claim) that men will become like God and will with their wife or wives create spirit children who will populate worlds without number that they then manage/run. And then the people on those planets worship them as the only god, with the promise that they can do the same thing and make the same progress. So then God (and eventually each of us) then continue to progress through the eternities by having our spiritual children become gods/exalted which therefore exalts us further, which therefore exalts our god further.

So there is quite a lot of polytheistic understanding there, but with emphasis placed on one single god as the only relevant one for us at this time. So its actually more akin to Henotheism where you acknowledge the existence of multiple deities but only worship one… or 3 kind of

So anyway, hope that helps provide context for LDS beliefs surrounding monotheism/polytheism. There is an argument to be made that Brandon would follow the emphasis on a single deity and try to bring all the shards back together as one single entity. But you could also make the argument that those shards could eventually be split into smaller parts whose power is held by a larger qty of people with less omnipotent powers/capabilities.

But regardless, the point of my post was that the response Odium had at Dalinar calling himself Unity has not been explained directly, which is interesting because I’d have expected that to be made clear by the end of this last book, especially with Dalinar dying.

And given the explanation of religions on Sel and their history and the emphasis on Unity from the parent religion of the two prominent ones we see in Elantris, I think it’s very possible that Odium’s reaction was a reference to the fact that he/his shard’s power (they) had killed Unity already.

[QuantumAce]

On 3/28/2025 at 4:42 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Not convinced yet? Harmony is the combination of Ruin and Preservation, which are supposedly opposing intents. We know that Devotion and Dominion have polarization effects on each other… I don’t think it would be outlandish for the combined intents to be held together as Unity.

 

Ruin and Preservation are more direct opposites. While they may complement each other in certain situations, there is no overlap. With Dominion and Devotion I see more overlap, but also more volatility. If you try to work with both of them together, there is always a risk of something snapping and the whole thing imploding. More tension from multiple points that just two opposing forces. Just spitballing here, I wonder if the vessels trying to shape their intent to reach equilibrium could have, intentionally or unintentionally, created some sort of proto-Unity. Odium either saw this as a threat, or the process weakened the vessels enough to make them easy targets. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

28 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

 

Ruin and Preservation are more direct opposites. While they may complement each other in certain situations, there is no overlap. With Dominion and Devotion I see more overlap, but also more volatility. If you try to work with both of them together, there is always a risk of something snapping and the whole thing imploding. More tension from multiple points that just two opposing forces. Just spitballing here, I wonder if the vessels trying to shape their intent to reach equilibrium could have, intentionally or unintentionally, created some sort of proto-Unity. Odium either saw this as a threat, or the process weakened the vessels enough to make them easy targets. 

I could totally see that! Especially with their sort of balance being inspired by yin and yang. That imagery is helpful for me when imagining how they sort of mix while maintaining a polarity in their relationship in the cognitive realm.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 3/30/2025 at 3:01 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

So anyway, hope that helps provide context for LDS beliefs surrounding monotheism/polytheism.

It actually is extremely helpful. Thank you for putting in the effort of explaining it.

I have kind of been dreading a sort of "one or the other" outcome to this kind of an arc to the grander narrative, since there is a lot of absolutism around God in the forms of Christianity I have experience with, but the way you explained your understanding of LSD beliefs makes me think there is a way to imagine an outcome of "Yeah, we built a mono-god, but we'll treat that god like a tree from which scions may be drawn or a aspirational figure for others to see as a role model instead of as a sole ruler of the whole cosmos".

Honestly, a lot of forms of religion feel like they are yet to process the genuine awe that the scale of the universe effects, being stuck with the impression that the stars and planets are simply decorations of the night sky instead of things comparable to the Earth itself.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

16 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Honestly, a lot of forms of religion feel like they are yet to process the genuine awe that the scale of the universe effects, being stuck with the impression that the stars and planets are simply decorations of the night sky instead of things comparable to the Earth itself.

Wow, love how you put this. Definitely agree!

19 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I have kind of been dreading a sort of "one or the other" outcome to this kind of an arc to the grander narrative, since there is a lot of absolutism around God in the forms of Christianity I have experience with, but the way you explained your understanding of LSD beliefs makes me think there is a way to imagine an outcome of "Yeah, we built a mono-god, but we'll treat that god like a tree from which scions may be drawn or a aspirational figure for others to see as a role model instead of as a sole ruler of the whole cosmos".

Definitely an understandable concern! I would be disappointed if things ended in that spot as well, but I'm hopeful that Brandon will continue to subvert expectations and explore new and interesting ways for the idea of what 'god(s)' could or should be to society. As far as traditional/orthodox LDS beliefs and viewpoints go, most people I've talked to would classify him as 'nuanced' or 'progressive'. I wouldn't dare speak for him personally, as belief and religious practice are super personal - just from his writing and the things he tends to promote as good/wholesome are sometimes in opposition with orthodox beliefs and practices. So he doesn't appear to just hold on to dogma for the sake of holding on to dogma. I guess what I'm saying is that Brandon has shown an impressive understanding of nuance and an intentional avoidance/subversion of the typical tropes. He also seems to avoid making anything mirror things in the real world too closely - like even with Kelsier being kind of a Jesus Christ-like character with the Church of the Survivor, he shows how that was clearly a deception from the beginning. Of course with Kelsier still being alive and technically being Preservation for a short time, there's something to it, but it's nothing close to what the believers in the Survivor profess to be true. So I've very much enjoyed that we, as the audience, understand a lot of what is going on in the Cosmere and how things work, while many of our main characters who hold religious beliefs are shown to have some reasons for their belief but only a tiny piece of the true story going on.

That's actually another theme in Mormonism though - the belief that all other religions have some truth, but theirs is the only one that has the 'fulness' of truth restored. So that could be at play, but again I expect he will continue to surprise us and keep his final intentions for the Cosmere hidden and murky and hard to predict!

[Jult]

On 3/28/2025 at 5:42 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Dominion as Unity of nations and Unity of people. Devotion as Unity of heart and Unity of purpose. What if they merged their shards into one singular shard and held it together as two joint forces?

Reviving this because I was just about to propose a very similar theory and found that you beat me to it...

I was wandering the Coppermind and this particular quote at the top of Keseg's page stood out to me:

Quote

"Keseg taught of unity. But what did he mean? Unity of mind, as my people assume? Unity of love, as your priests claim? Or is it the unity of obedience, as the Derethi believe? In the end, I am left to ponder how mankind managed to complicate such a simple concept."

—Shuden on Keshu's teachings^[1]

It gave me similar suspicions to what you've proposed. It's a pretty clear callout to the Shards. After all, "Unity of love" fits very well with Devotion. And "Unity of obedience" fits well with Dominion.

My thoughts are that the Dor has gained sentience over time as Honor appears to be doing in WaT. But that it didn't start from a blank slate. I think it retained portions of Skai and Aona's Cognitive Shadows because of the weird method that Rayse used to trap the Investiture in the Cognitive Realm. I believe it is some strange fusion not just of the 2 Shards, but of the 2 Vessels as well - a Unity of mind.

From there, I think this new entity, Unity, would have sought out Rayse for revenge - since it would have some of Skai and Aona's memories. That's why Unity helps Dalinar. It's also why Rayse seems to recognize Unity. As for the 'we' in "We killed you". I think it might just be Rayse referring to himself and Bavadin. There's a WoB where Brandon dances around her involvement in the deaths of Aona and Skai:

Quote

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)

Some more tangential speculation to back this up:

There are hints in WaT that Taravangian may be sending the Blackthorn to Elantris:

Quote

"For the briefest moment, he stood on a burned hillside at night, in a land with a strange pale moon. A broken city smoldered before him, one with high walls that had been shattered, and within it a strange people. He raised what he knew was a weapon, though it was no sword or polearm, and unleased lines of light while the armies surged around him.

He wore black Shardplate"

-WaT Chapter 55

Perhaps Taravangian, through Odium, knows what Unity is and therefore brings the fight to them before they meddle with Roshar again?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 minutes ago, Jult said:

Reviving this because I was just about to propose a very similar theory and found that you beat me to it...

I was wandering the Coppermind and this particular quote at the top of Keseg's page stood out to me:

It gave me similar suspicions to what you've proposed. It's a pretty clear callout to the Shards. After all, "Unity of love" fits very well with Devotion. And "Unity of obedience" fits well with Dominion.

My thoughts are that the Dor has gained sentience over time as Honor appears to be doing in WaT. But that it didn't start from a blank slate. I think it retained portions of Skai and Aona's Cognitive Shadows because of the weird method that Rayse used to trap the Investiture in the Cognitive Realm. I believe it is some strange fusion not just of the 2 Shards, but of the 2 Vessels as well - a Unity of mind.

From there, I think this new entity, Unity, would have sought out Rayse for revenge - since it would have some of Skai and Aona's memories. That's why Unity helps Dalinar. It's also why Rayse seems to recognize Unity. As for the 'we' in "We killed you". I think it might just be Rayse referring to himself and Bavadin. There's a WoB where Brandon dances around her involvement in the deaths of Aona and Skai:

Some more tangential speculation to back this up:

There are hints in WaT that Taravangian may be sending the Blackthorn to Elantris:

Perhaps Taravangian, through Odium, knows what Unity is and therefore brings the fight to them before they meddle with Roshar again?

I love it all - this definitely frames things in a nice way and gives a bit more solid footing for the theory that there’s a connection between Unity and the Dor. I really really think there is something to this! Just feels like we don’t have enough data to actually piece anything together with confidence.

heres to hoping emberdark gives us some more useful tidbits!

[Jult]

32 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I love it all - this definitely frames things in a nice way and gives a bit more solid footing for the theory that there’s a connection between Unity and the Dor. I really really think there is something to this! Just feels like we don’t have enough data to actually piece anything together with confidence.

heres to hoping emberdark gives us some more useful tidbits!

Another thing that could tie into this is that moment towards the end of WaT where Dalinar is "claimed by another". If Unity claimed him, then we may even get to see Dalinar as Unity's champion fighting himself (the Blackthorn) as Retribution's champion in the ruins of Elantris. Which would be cool a scene, but also a part of me hopes that Dalinar's story is over and someone else needs to bring down the Blackthorn instead.