Storing Spikes

[Trusk'our he/him]

It's been proposed before that a Hemalurgic construct might be able to store more of certain Feruchemical attributes, like how a Koloss has vastly more strength to stow away in a Pewtermind (though there's been questions on whether the spike's Identity interferes too much for this).

I wonder though, why not just cut out the middleman and just hook an Unsealed Metalmind to a Hemalurgic spike?

We've seen that inanimate objects like airships can be rigged to store certain Feruchemical attributes like weight, so if a spike contains something like physical strength, could that be continuously filling a Pewtermind on its own?

Or, maybe instead of spiking yourself with stolen Allomantic or Feruchemical power, you have it siphoned off into an Unsealed Nicrosilmind to tap later.

We know Identity doesn't prevent Unsealed Metalminds from storing other's attributes, so neither should spike Identity. 

We don't know how easy it is to tap another's stores via Unsealed Metalmind yet, but given the existence of the South's Brassminds I don't think it's too difficult an obstical.

Edited March 6, 2025 by Trusk'our

[therunner he/him]

I'd say that would not work, because spike on its own is 'inert', i.e. the spiritweb is not doing anything, not expressing itself in PR in any way.

Feruchemists get explicitly weaker, and lose muscle mass as they store strength, because they are storing strength of their muscles. Spike does not have that, so there is nothing to store.

For Nicrosil, it would quite likely not work, since I think we can be sure that Nicrosil Ferrings don't remove pieces of their soul (rendering them like Drabs) whenever they use their powers, so even if you would move the charge, you would get something different from what Ferring would store there. It would have invalid 'code' so to speak.

Possibly flawed analogy, Feruchemy is like diverting part of the output of water plant and storing it in battery, and requires the water to flow (link between SR and PR). Spike that is not used, is stagnant water, so cannot provide any power.

Edited March 7, 2025 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:05 AM, therunner said:

I'd say that would not work, because spike on its own is 'inert', i.e. the spiritweb is not doing anything, not expressing itself in PR in any way.

Feruchemists get explicitly weaker, and lose muscle mass as they store strength, because they are storing strength of their muscles. Spike does not have that, so there is nothing to store.

Sorry for the late response, I had extra responsibilities to take care of and forgot about this for a while.

 

Spikes aren’t normally exerting an influence, true, but they should still have the components to do so. 

For example, when a Kandra bears the Blessing of Potency, they have no noticeable physical changes made to their bodies, yet they receive a boost to many if not all the attributes Allomantic pewter effects. 

If the only Investiture involved in this scenario is that of the spikes, how could this not be used as a fuel line for Feruchemy? The spike is providing power on its own, and as long as its preserved correctly I don't see a reason for it being incapable of filling a Metalmind. 

On 3/7/2025 at 2:05 AM, therunner said:

For Nicrosil, it would quite likely not work, since I think we can be sure that Nicrosil Ferrings don't remove pieces of their soul (rendering them like Drabs) whenever they use their powers, so even if you would move the charge, you would get something different from what Ferring would store there. It would have invalid 'code' so to speak.

I'm not sure I follow.

If Hemalurgic theft moves a functional power from a Metalborn to a spike and if a Soulbearer does the same but with their Metalmind, how come the spike's contents become an invalid source for a Nicrosilmind? 

I mean, Hemalurgy does twist what it takes, but the powers themselves still function identically from what we've seen. I don't understand why siphoning off the power to be used in a Metalmind would not work when the spike would have had a functional power on its own, as a natural Metalborn should have the same requirement.

If I've misstated your thoughts, please correct me.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

For example, when a Kandra bears the Blessing of Potency, they have no noticeable physical changes made to their bodies, yet they receive a boost to many if not all the attributes Allomantic pewter effects.

1) Kandra spikes are not ordinary spikes.
2) Kandra are not humans, they are hemalurgic constructs and spikes are literally part of their 'natural' makeup. For Kandra, they serve as organs to some extent.

As such, Kandra are not good starting point for any discussion on spikes and hemalurgy, because they are literally designed to function in this manner, and unlike even Koloss or Inquisitors, the original host is no longer human.

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If the only Investiture involved in this scenario is that of the spikes, how could this not be used as a fuel line for Feruchemy? The spike is providing power on its own, and as long as its preserved correctly I don't see a reason for it being incapable of filling a Metalmind. 

No, it is providing something as its function in Kandra biology.

I.e. Blessing of Potency implanted in human would not provide the same benefit, because human are not kandra.

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If Hemalurgic theft moves a functional power from a Metalborn to a spike and if a Soulbearer does the same but with their Metalmind, how come the spike's contents become an invalid source for a Nicrosilmind? 

Because I don't think soulbearer does do the same.

Again, Soulbearer likely does not render themselves Drab or worse when they store, someone would have noticed that.

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I mean, Hemalurgy does twist what it takes, but the powers themselves still function identically from what we've seen. I don't understand why siphoning off the power to be used in a Metalmind would not work when the spike would have had a functional power on its own, as a natural Metalborn should have the same requirement.

The end result of the IA might look the same, but I think the underlying mechanism is different. Feruchemy does not literally remove and store parts of your spiritweb (otherwise you would have to tap to get back to regular state), but Hemalurgic spikes do. As such, they are fundamentally not the same thing.

Also, Nicrosil metalmind alone does not allow anyone to use that power, that is why Medallions are so interesting. So you need to do something to Nicrosil metalmind to allow it to bestow powers, and that also grants measure of sentience to Medallions. This is not at all like Spikes.

Edited April 18, 2025 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/18/2025 at 2:56 AM, therunner said:

Because I don't think soulbearer does do the same.

Again, Soulbearer likely does not render themselves Drab or worse when they store, someone would have noticed that.

Ah, sorry. For some reason my brain scrambled it and thought you said you did think they were the same.

Overall I don't think I'm convinced that spikes cannot be used to directly fuel Feruchemy, but I don't have definitive proof for my argument either, just hunches. 

 

I suppose even if spikes aren’t enough on their own to fuel a Metalmind there still may be possibility for spiking a rat or cockroach, then trying to siphon off of their new augmentations. Not super humane, but definitely less psychotic than using human hosts and turning them into Koloss or something worse.

There still might be issues if you're trying to fuel human abilities with a very inhuman source, but since it's the human parts that are being drawn from on the constructs the Investiture harvested might still be compatable with human Feruchemists.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, sorry. For some reason my brain scrambled it and thought you said you did think they were the same.

No problem, miscommunication happens.

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Overall I don't think I'm convinced that spikes cannot be used to directly fuel Feruchemy, but I don't have definitive proof for my argument either, just hunches.

Fair enough.

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I suppose even if spikes aren’t enough on their own to fuel a Metalmind there still may be possibility for spiking a rat or cockroach, then trying to siphon off of their new augmentations. Not super humane, but definitely less psychotic than using human hosts and turning them into Koloss or something worse.

There still might be issues if you're trying to fuel human abilities with a very inhuman source, but since it's the human parts that are being drawn from on the constructs the Investiture harvested might still be compatable with human Feruchemists.

Hmm, with rat maybe? But cockroach I strongly doubt would be compatible, their physiology is too different.

Same way I think that Feruchemist simply coudn't tap a sense they don't have (i.e. tapping metalmind full of magnetoreception wouldn't let them detect it, because they lack the organ to do so), I don't think e.g. strength or sight, etc. from cockroach would be in any way compatible, not without gross distortion of the body.

Another issue would be that they possess far smaller amount of attribute to store, e.g. rat is ~300-400x smaller by weight than human, so to obtain human-level stores would take correspondingly larger amount of time.

[QuantumAce]

On 4/17/2025 at 8:42 PM, Trusk'our said:

For example, when a Kandra bears the Blessing of Potency, they have no noticeable physical changes made to their bodies, yet they receive a boost to many if not all the attributes Allomantic pewter effects. 

This indicates a Kandra is using a non-consumable spike to establish a link to the power of Preservation, similar to the one an allomancer normally achieves by burning metal. It is established Kandra spikes would not provide the same effect in a human, so this is presumably a characteristic of being a hemalurgic construct. It sounds like you are suggesting trying to find a mechanical way to replicate that. I was skeptical at first, but that actually might be theoretically possible. 

On 5/1/2025 at 7:12 PM, Trusk'our said:

There still might be issues if you're trying to fuel human abilities with a very inhuman source, but since it's the human parts that are being drawn from on the constructs the Investiture harvested might still be compatable with human Feruchemists.

What about using it fuel something mechanical, like an allomantic grenade? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 5/7/2025 at 1:09 PM, QuantumAce said:

This indicates a Kandra is using a non-consumable spike to establish a link to the power of Preservation, similar to the one an allomancer normally achieves by burning metal. It is established Kandra spikes would not provide the same effect in a human, so this is presumably a characteristic of being a hemalurgic construct.

To nitpick, I'd argue Kandra don't get warped probably because they're shape-shifters, so they simply sidestep such phenomena. Regardless, their power is ground for Hemalurgic Investiture that doesn't necessarily need the body to change to use attribute spikes (it isn't concrete given their unique interactions, but at least worth taking note of).

On 5/7/2025 at 1:09 PM, QuantumAce said:

It sounds like you are suggesting trying to find a mechanical way to replicate that. I was skeptical at first, but that actually might be theoretically possible. 

I think so, yes. I was mostly reasoning along the lines of using an alternative source to fuel Feruchemy (that isn't Compounding) that did not require you to sit a Feruchemist down and actively weaken them to charge a Metalmind.

Spiking a person to get the necessary attributes instead of just using the person. . . well, it doesn't really quite follow through with this original idea but once done you could theoretically drain the spike round the clock without needing a human host. Just hook up a spike for centuries to come, maybe fueling spike production with the dying, perhaps use F-gold to regenerate lost Spiritweb fragments, or maybe just take tiny, tiny slivers from many people.