Speculation and Question about Sliverism

[spinner he/him]

I didn't want to post two things, so reading I had a thought, and then I will follow up with my question.

Thoughts:

http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2012/03/cage-match-2012-round-4-moiraine-damodred-versus-kelsier.html

This may imply that Kelsier is still around, as a living god to the Survivorists. It may also imply that Sazed (Who was so interested in faith) gave the people of the planet three living gods, whom would care about them. Marsh, Kelsier, and Himself.

Question:

Sliverism. If you have a link to a discussion about it that'd be great.

I'm playing in an Allomancy of Law RPG in which my character is a member of the Yomen family. If there is no link then, feel free to add your speculations, as I don't really know where to start with that.

[Windrunner he/him]

As far as I know we haven't really got into Siverism anywhere so here's a good place.

But the link you have is to the Suvudu cage match. That isn't in any way canonical. Brandon wrote it as a fun joke on both his fans and the WoT ones. Notice his jokes about hat tricks and not being able to get through book ten of WoT. It even breaks the fourth wall with references to the length of their books. Its not meant to be taken seriously, just to laugh a bit. I can see how it would get confusing though.

[spinner he/him]

That's exactly the point though...they refer to spoilers and facts (even if they the characters shouldn't know them) ...which leads me to believe that they're true.

[Windrunner he/him]

But it's a joke. In real canon characters never refer to the book itself because they are treated as real people. Brandon wrote it this way because he was in a hurry with AMoL so he didn't have time for an epic battle. Anyway he would never tie his worlds to that of the Wheel of Time. Not only would that be disrespectful to do this without Robert Jordan's permission but Harriet wouldn't allow it. It wouldn't even fit in with the rest. Brandon builds the worlds from the ground-up so they grow into the cosmology of it all, the Wheel of Time wouldn't attach very well at all. You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but in my opinion it doesn't really make much sense.

[spinner he/him]

You're not getting what I'm saying...I'm not saying I think the world is combined...I'm saying Kelsier alludes that he may still be back among the living. Then makes the following comment... I'm very aware they are in no way canon nor it doesn't mean much on its own, but if you believe what Kelsier is saying is true (even if it is non-canon it can still be true.) I'm saying it points towards a direction Brandon could go, not necessarily that he went that way. He isn't writing it yet, anyway. Just saying, its speculation.

“Well,” Kelsier said, “I don’t think it matters if you came back. We could just say this is me from the middle of the first Mistborn book. Besides, I think I eventually got better myself.”

“Doesn’t count. You became a disembodied voice that may or may not have actually been speaking into the mind of a young boy who was probably insane.”

“Yes,” Kelsier said, “but my series has a long way to go yet. Who knows what could happen? I’ve heard that some very remarkable things can happen with spikes . . .”

Implying that -potentially- he could be back on the planet. I'm not saying that I -believe- it to be true...but I'm just saying, I think it sounds feasible. The nature of hemalurgy is that you take a piece of someone's spirit and tac it into your own. With that logic, it'd be possible to rebuild a spirit with all the appropriate spikes, or even transplant a personality/identity with them.

------Sliverism.

Do the majority of people believe that the still worship TLR or that they're object of reverence has switched to majorally Ironeyes.

Edited May 31, 2012 by spinner

[Windrunner he/him]

Oh I get what you mean. I though you were saying that the fight itself was canon. The spikes are a possibility, although Brandon might just be yanking our chain, to tease us a little bit with the possible return of many people's favorite character. But then again he could be being truthful. Who knows what the last 4 or so spikes do, or even possibly god metal alloys.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

I agree. Coming from a long line of distinguished chain-yankers, I recognize the elements of a solid yank in that there quote.

But I also believe that Brandon might do some interesting things with Kelsier's remains, if not necessarily his character...

[Chaos he/him]

Since Brandon confirmed that Kelsier is still meddling, Kelsier is absolutely still manipulating things, in some way or form. And spikes would be a way for him to communicate even more. We don't know what he's doing, but he's doing something, that's for sure.

He can never let well enough alone

[spinner he/him]

Indeed, and as I said, It is just speculation. Something to think about.

So, back to this Sliverism topic...anyone have ideas?

The concept I'm running for the character currently is that he is a Spinner Ferring and several steps down the Yomen line of succession (5-6th in line for house title, not a contender, really.) He is so used to being lucky that life is somewhat boring, so he is setting up a Private Eye business. (That's for setting up the characters in a 'crew.')

I imagine Sliverism is going to be a very interesting part of his background, but I have no idea how it would have evolved...and short of making things up, I was wondering if anyone else had any ideas. (Or you can make things up with me, if you like, haha.)

[Windrunner he/him]

Okay, I'm gad were all cleared up on that.

As for your character, let's see. Well you could logically follow Yomen's belief's in HoA. He believe's that the Lord Ruler's death is a trick, and that he is just waiting to see who remain faithful to him. So you could go with something in the vein of Christianity. Yomen's family and the others waiting for the second coming of their God. A whole bunch of stuff about the faithful few and things like that. The whole "worshiping Ironeyes," sounds like an outsider perspective. I'd say his place would be as a sort of archangel type deal, dispensing the Lord Ruler's will on Scadrial. Make sure you refer to him as the Sliver of Infinity. That's just the best guess I've got.

[Eric]

To the first, I think Kelsier is referring to talking to people through spikes, and potentially taking control of them directly. He'd have heard that it was possible from his brother, what with the bazillion spikes Marsh has letting Ruin control him almost entirely. Who knows? Marsh might be able to willingly lend Kelsier his body.

For the second, I wonder if it isn't worship of the Lord Ruler and Vin. She did claim to be the heir to TLR to Yomen, and they did a pretty bang-up job of getting the world in position to be saved. Yomen would have seen Vin and Elend laid out after Sazed took up the Shards, as well, which was a pretty clear miracle.

[spinner he/him]

Hmm, I like that. So it's just the worship of all known Slivers? Do they have the account of when Kelsier was the Sliver, you think, in the origin book? Or, do you think it would simply be the Silver of Infinity and the Ascended Warrior? And at that point, I suppose you'd worship Ironeyes as the living hand of the Sliver. Hmm...interesting notion, I like it.

[Eric]

Actually, if they know of Kelsier's time holding the power before Vin came to the Well, that puts Ironeyes as the immortal brother of one of their deity figures, and goes a lot further to explain why they might revere him. He does speak of supporting his brother's work, which dovetails nicely with all of that.

So the list would go:

The Lord Ruler - The Sliver of Infinity (first known, anyway)

Kelsier - The Survivor (holding the power in trust)

Vin - The Ascendant Warrior (heir to the Lord Ruler)

Marsh - Ironeyes (Metatron figure)

Sazed, or rather Harmony, would likely be seen as above them all, but perhaps too far removed for direct worship and prayer. I wonder if they pray or simply venerate... I do agree that Marsh is most likely a Metatron figure.

[spinner he/him]

Very nice. I like it as well, and it works nicely. Harmony will be seen as "the God" where the rest were slivers, humans who attempted to create a better world for their ilk. (Harmony was a human too, but is still currently "God.") The equivalent of Demigods in Mythology(mayhaps). I like it.

[Zas678 he/him]

To the first, I think Kelsier is referring to talking to people through spikes, and potentially taking control of them directly. He'd have heard that it was possible from his brother, what with the bazillion spikes Marsh has letting Ruin control him almost entirely. Who knows? Marsh might be able to willingly lend Kelsier his body.

For the second, I wonder if it isn't worship of the Lord Ruler and Vin. She did claim to be the heir to TLR to Yomen, and they did a pretty bang-up job of getting the world in position to be saved. Yomen would have seen Vin and Elend laid out after Sazed took up the Shards, as well, which was a pretty clear miracle.

Something interesting... Kelsier's bones are still around.

BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson

IWINULOSE2

In Mistborn 3, What happened to Kelsier's bones, and will they play any significance in any of the sequels?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The bones survived the events of the last book. We might see them again. Speaking of relic-like items, Sazed's rings survived as well. We might see those again.

And if TenSoon is still around, that means that TenSoon could be going around appearing as Kelsier. Especially since we have a report of "The Survivor" and "Iron Eyes" meeting (from crazy-Mortician Tan).

[spinner he/him]

Yes, indeed. And tales of the Faceless Immortals...hmm. Its really just where BS decides to take it all I suppose...and everything else is ...speculation... Personally, I'd like to know what all the Hemulergic spikes do...

ANother question in regards to Sliverism. Do you think they would carry on getting the Obligator tattoos if they were devote, or if they were higher members of the church?

[Eric]

The Obligator tattoos are a funny thing. You wouldn't have the various traditional Cantons anymore, so while there might be tattooing going on, I wouldn't expect it to be quite the same. But the 'simple to ornate' progression and positioning around the eyes and up the forehead, I would expect that to continue.

[spinner he/him]

Yeah, I think they'd do a stylized version that evolved over time. Since Yomen was still around, and founded House Yomen (We can assume). So they're probably based on the Canton of Resources (if I'm not mistaken, which I might be.)

[Windrunner he/him]

The Cantons aren't gone though. The Canton of Cartography made the map you see of the Elendel Basin and the Northern Roughs. Its possible that they enfolded the former Cantons into their new government due to the obligator's bureaucratic experience. (although Elend had some trouble with this) The tattoos might still be around, but maybe not too.

[Eric]

I didn't mean that there were no Cantons, but that they weren't the same Cantons we'd heard of before. I really wouldn't expect anyone to submit to a new Canton of Inquisition, and back when the Lord Ruler had created every speck of land and told you where you could put new towns and roads and such, a Canton of Cartography wouldn't make any sense. The Canton of Orthodoxy is going to need to adapt really quickly with the sudden changes in the world or it will fall by the wayside. The Cantons of Resource and Finance might still be around, but I don't think so because we didn't hear of them in Alloy of Law, and that's a scheme where I'd really expect to at least meet an Obligator if they're still around. So my assertion is that there are new Cantons and few of the old ones likely remain.

[spinner he/him]

I don't think they have "Cantons" in the traditional sense. I think the houses in each place would take care of that as far as the city/cities are concerned. Since it is set up some odd amalgamation of vassals and free wages.

[Eric]

Yeah, I'm thinking the 'Cantons' are now closer to Guilds or Unions than religious secretarial groups. Same specialties in some cases, similar forms, but a pretty different reasoning behind them.

[Oxinabox]

My take is that Sliverism is the worship of the "Sliver of Infinity", ie the lord rules.

It wasone of the religions Sazed studied in the old world, so would have come across in the books.

I also beielve that people have got confused (In character),

as to the difference between: The Lord Ruler, IronEyes (Marsh),and all Steel Inquisitors.

Whic is why some people sys Silverism is the worship of IronEyes.

I would also spculate that around 50 years after the battle of Scandeil,

a large number (50-300) of Silverists would have left the Elandrel Basin, heading overseas, or perhaps into the Southern Roughs. To Set up a society, as they thought it was before.

With Skaa, Obligators, nobles, but a absent (but "real") Sliver of Infinity watching over them.

Some might say that no one would agree to be a Skaa, but not having to ever make descions is attractive to some.

[Asha'man Logain]

Since Brandon confirmed that Kelsier is still meddling, Kelsier is absolutely still manipulating things, in some way or form. And spikes would be a way for him to communicate even more. We don't know what he's doing, but he's doing something, that's for sure.

He can never let well enough alone

There's always another secret!