Before the dragons …

[Eahlendell]

On my third reread I noticed this comment from on Wit

Spoiler

“Trust me,” Wit said. “I’ve tried. Before us were the dragons. Before them, the gods. Everything has been done. Every story has been told. Every idea has been thought.”

I have been assuming that the Dragons who had a mighty civilisation when Humans were not as developed on Yolen that the only thing that would predate them would be Ado himself.

 

Spoiler

“They reminded me of my own people, who had been so primitive compared to the dragons and their great civilization. ”

Who would these gods be? I always remember the WOB about an opposing force which I do understand could have been the original vessels.

Ado in my opinion can’t represent a being like the Anrahamic God as he would be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and much means he either planned the Shatterting or he didn’t. 
 

Could there be some smaller gods running around or more Like Ado himself!

[Ripheus23]

Could be the aethers. They represent themselves as independent of Ado and as rather deity-like.

Maybe they tried to use Midnight Essence during the earlier attempt to kill Ado...

[ShatteredDiamond She/Her]

Might not be exactly what you are looking  for, but in dragonsteel prime, a race of immortal human beings is mentioned to have existed before they are destroyed and replaced with mortal people. There also are some gods akin to what you would see in greek/roman mythology. Although I'm not certain these would carry over into actual cosmere cannon, and immortal humans might not be considered "gods"

[TheoreticalMagic]

I remember aaaaages ago when I read the original Liar of Partinel intro chapters, there was a reference to "the corpses of dead gods" being strewn across Yolen, and the source of some of the fainlife, I believe? But I never read Dragonsteel Prime so I don't know if those are the immortals or gods Phendorana is referencing or if these dead gods from Liar of Partinel were something else. And of course, I have no idea where they stack comparative to Adonalsium, let alone if any of that is even still canon or in the plans. 

But then, personally, I've always had the hunch that Adonalsium was the creator of the cosmere galaxy but not the original or only god of the universe. In fact, it wouldn't shock me (thematically) if it turned out the Shards were just the latest in a cycle of godhood, replacing Adonalsium the way Adonalsium possibly replaced older gods or was the last of a previous generation of gods, or just the one local to this galaxy, etc.....and then the cosmere cycle will ultimately end with either Adonalsium being reformed - or more likely IMO, with the rise of the next generation of gods, which might be four "Super Shards" comprising four of the original sixteen Shards each.

There's a WoB that a combination of four Shards would be much more stable than either Harmony or Retribution, so I'm kinda expecting the cosmere finale to split the difference between Adonalsium and the Sixteen.....make the case that the original Vessels weren't necessarily wrong to think that too much power concentrated in the hands of one single unchecked being wasn't ideal, but at the same time, the solution was never the sixteen Shards because that made the pieces of Ado's power too contextually limited and lacking the proper framing needed to keep the Sixteen Intents from becoming obsessions bereft of nuance. So I think by the end of it all, we'll have four Gods instead of one or sixteen, and Harmony is the basis of one but will be combined with two more Shards (possibly Autonomy for one) and Retribution is the basis of another, possibly fated to combine with Reason and Valor, at a guess. And then whatever the Dor is becoming might combine the vestiges of Dominion and Devotion with two more Shards somewhere down the line, and the four remaining Shards (or reassigned Investiture of Splintered Shards like Ambition and Virtuosity) will make up the fourth God.

And thus the cosmere cycle will ultimately be something more akin to the cycle of mythologies like Greek mythology for instance....with its primordial powers which gave way to the Titans who were overthrown by the Olympians, who feared being supplanted by the Giants or other children of the gods or Titans, etc.

Adonalsium, his potential peers or predecessors, the Shards, their eventual final combined forms or successors, etc....they're all gods in their own ways, but they represent different generations of godhood, each being different KINDS of gods for a different era of the cosmere's arc of history.

Edited January 26, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Ripheus23]

24 minutes ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I remember aaaaages ago when I read the original Liar of Partinel intro chapters, there was a reference to "the corpses of dead gods" being strewn across Yolen, and the source of some of the fainlife, I believe? But I never read Dragonsteel Prime so I don't know if those are the immortals or gods Phendorana is referencing or if these dead gods from Liar of Partinel were something else. And of course, I have no idea where they stack comparative to Adonalsium, let alone if any of that is even still canon or in the plans. 

But then, personally, I've always had the hunch that Adonalsium was the creator of the cosmere galaxy but not the original or only god of the universe. In fact, it wouldn't shock me (thematically) if it turned out the Shards were just the latest in a cycle of godhood, replacing Adonalsium the way Adonalsium possibly replaced older gods or was the last of a previous generation of gods, or just the one local to this galaxy, etc.....and then the cosmere cycle will ultimately end with either Adonalsium being reformed - or more likely IMO, with the rise of the next generation of gods, which might be four "Super Shards" comprising four of the original sixteen Shards each.

There's a WoB that a combination of four Shards would be much more stable than either Harmony or Retribution, so I'm kinda expecting the cosmere finale to split the difference between Adonalsium and the Sixteen.....make the case that the original Vessels weren't necessarily wrong to think that too much power concentrated in the hands of one single unchecked being wasn't ideal, but at the same time, the solution was never the sixteen Shards because that made the pieces of Ado's power too contextually limited and lacking the proper framing needed to keep the Sixteen Intents from becoming obsessions bereft of nuance. So I think by the end of it all, we'll have four Gods instead of one or sixteen, and Harmony is the basis of one but will be combined with two more Shards (possibly Autonomy for one) and Retribution is the basis of another, possibly fated to combine with Reason and Valor, at a guess. And then whatever the Dor is becoming might combine the vestiges of Dominion and Devotion with two more Shards somewhere down the line, and the four remaining Shards (or reassigned Investiture of Splintered Shards like Ambition and Virtuosity) will make up the fourth God.

And thus the cosmere cycle will ultimately be something more akin to the cycle of mythologies like Greek mythology for instance....with its primordial powers which gave way to the Titans who were overthrown by the Olympians, who feared being supplanted by the Giants or other children of the gods or Titans, etc.

Adonalsium, his potential peers or predecessors, the Shards, their eventual final combined forms or successors, etc....they're all gods in their own ways, but they represent different generations of godhood, each being different KINDS of gods for a different era of the cosmere's arc of history.

This would fit pretty well into deep LDS metaphysics/cosmology, too, like the thing in "If You Could Hie to Kolob" about finding out "the generation where gods began to be."

[Eahlendell]

Thanks for your responses.

 

i have also had the idea that Ado created the small cluster of stars that is the Cosmere.otherwise its a very limited and young “universe” so to speak.

The aethers believe that they predate Ado and that may be the case. 

In terms of the future I often wonder what will become of the shards and the races. All these attributes of god without context  are always going to prove a challenge for humanity. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/26/2025 at 12:01 AM, Eahlendell said:

On my third reread I noticed this comment from on Wit

  Hide contents

“Trust me,” Wit said. “I’ve tried. Before us were the dragons. Before them, the gods. Everything has been done. Every story has been told. Every idea has been thought.”

I have been assuming that the Dragons who had a mighty civilisation when Humans were not as developed on Yolen that the only thing that would predate them would be Ado himself.

It would seem that entities like Wind and Truth are really ancient and not limited to Roshar.

[Eahlendell]

Do you think Wind, Night and Stone existed on different cosmere planets. Not so sure about Truth?