Moral of the story

[Nitpicking]

6 minutes ago, Fractalfire said:

 

Speaking of which, now that Odium bit the bullet and picked up two shards, what's to stop him from trying to pick up previously shattered ones too?

The other Shards, presumably.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Asininity said:

Yet somehow, Dalinar's decision guarantees even worse outcome for Roshar, in exchange for a hope that it might benefit the Cosmere in the long run.

Worse outcome than continuation of millennia of war? Because that is what would have happened, it was the only possible outcome of the contest.

Remember that the only reason there was peace on Roshar the last ~4000 years is that Heralds chose to abandon their Oaths. Dalinar does the same, for similar reason.

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I struggle to see how this situation actually favors Taravangian. The moment Dalinar ascends, balance of power on Roshar changes dramatically and I cannot see Odium winning this.

Odium has already won. Killing Gavinor would give them Alethkar back, but would freeze the conflict.
Odium would provoke humans into breaking the terms of contest, restarting the conflict and Dalinar couldn't really help humans because they broke an Oath, the Power wouldn't stand for that.

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Even if we take at face value the claim that this war is as dire as it seems, can you honestly say you’d prefer being enslaved by Retribution over having the freedom to choose between Honor and Odium?

There would be no freedom to choose, Odium would force a restart to the conflict as the book explicitly lays out, and then they would be in much worse position than previously.

Rayse wouldn't do that, so against him the contest would work as intended, but they are fighting Taravangian.

[Darvys]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Odium has already won. Killing Gavinor would give them Alethkar back, but would freeze the conflict.
Odium would provoke humans into breaking the terms of contest, restarting the conflict and Dalinar couldn't really help humans because they broke an Oath, the Power wouldn't stand for that.

There would be no freedom to choose, Odium would force a restart to the conflict as the book explicitly lays out, and then they would be in much worse position than previously.

The humans swore no oath to keep the peace, Dalinar swore no oath to keep the peace, the contract only binds Odium to do so, if war ever breaks out again, Honor can support his followers as he sees fit.

Why the hell would this be worse than where they are now ? They have nothing left, the Radiants are under constant threat of annihilation if they falter in their path, remember Kaladin in WoR ? Now under Retribution's rule he'd get vaporized the moment he acts against his oaths.

The singers themselves as well as all nations that made a pact with Retribution controlled nations are now effectively slaves, bound by the letter of their word or they'll end up like Kharbranth, there is no path left for any sort of resistance that doesn't stretch suspension of disbelief. 

Why not simply tell Wit to go F himself and release Odium ? Honor wouldn't care so long as Dalinar himself remains bound, the other shards not caring about a freed Odium would make absolutely no sense. Oh right it wouldn't be honorable for good old Dalinar, better to surpercharge him before release then ???

We don't KNOW this was the only way, we kept being TOLD it was. Ah Dalinar can't be the one to help Honor learn, why ? Who knows. Ah if the contract is upheld Odium will just be such an abhorrent ruler Radiants will be compelled to oppose him, singers and Mishram won't mind though, trust me bro. Ah if a war breaks out the cycle will just repeat again for thousands of years, never mind that the Fused can be destroyed now and are barely holding on as it is, never mind that with Honor involved once again, the spren will return in a flood, never mind that the Heralds can now have the support they need from both Kaladin and a God who cares and who won't be infecting them with his mounting insanity anymore.

No, If Odium is freed and Radiants have a God, his only option will be to turn his attention to the stars, that's where he'll send his armies to train, and if the Shards still choose to ignore him after that, then Taravangian is right, they all deserve to die.

And Gavinor ? Stick him to the floor and keep him there until he listens to sense, and if he doesn't accept that you have failed to protect him and end him. Dalinar is capable of making such a decision difficult though it would be. Brandon didn't want it, so we have to just believe that the ending he chose is what makes the most sense, Wit said it after all.

"Wait and see, it'll be worth it", sure, we'll get plenty of epic moments no doubt, but going forwards, this will be a "keep your brain at the door" type of series for me, expecting any kind of satisfaction or complexity from the narrative has just left me disappointed for a few books now.

Edited January 11, 2025 by Darvys

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

The humans swore no oath to keep the peace, Dalinar swore no oath to keep the peace, the contract only binds Odium to do so, if war ever breaks out again, Honor can support his followers as he sees fit.

Honor is kinda dumb, that is literally a plot point.

Even if, Dalinar couldn't really do much to help directly, he would no longer be Bondsmith and would be bound by prior deals Tanavast made with Odium, which prevent him from interfering.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Why not simply tell Wit to go F himself and release Odium ? Honor wouldn't care so long as Dalinar himself remains bound, the other shards not caring about a freed Odium would make absolutely no sense. Oh right it wouldn't be honorable for good old Dalinar, better to surpercharge him before release then ???

The only way for Odium to get released is for Honor to rescind the deal/oath made, which is exactly what makes Honor reject Dalinar.

Honor only care that Oaths be kept, you cannot just rescind them without angering the power.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

We don't KNOW this was the only way, we kept being TOLD it was.

...if book is telling you something, that is what it is.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

 Ah if the contract is upheld Odium will just be such an abhorrent ruler Radiants will be compelled to oppose him, singers and Mishram won't mind though, trust me bro.

You forget that there are humans in Odiums territories, either way contract goes.

Odium can have them all tortured or enslaved, and vast majority of Singers won't care, since after all, that is what humans were doing to them for millenia. Mishram as well, she just barely does not want to kill all humans herself.

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Ah if a war breaks out the cycle will just repeat again for thousands of years,

Yeah, it will, like literally the entire history of Roshar shows.

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never mind that the Fused can be destroyed now and are barely holding on as it is,

Fused being destroyed would likely let Odium make more and keep to the deal made with Honor.

Plus, so can spren, and those were never mortal, unlike Fused.

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never mind that with Honor involved once again, the spren will return in a flood,

Citation needed, Honorspren didn't even listen to Stormfather.

Spren will do what they want, not what Honor tells them. Like people. And now, they would have to risk their live to do so, thanks to anti-light.

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never mind that the Heralds can now have the support they need from both Kaladin and a God who cares

Heralds cannot turn the tide themselves, and Oathpact no longer works due to Everstorm (even before it became the True Everstorm).

At that stage Heralds are only super-Radiants, but still broken by millennia of fighting and dying and being tortured.

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and who won't be infecting them with his mounting insanity anymore.

Honor didn't infect them with insanity, that was Ishar after he used Odium's power.

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No, If Odium is freed and Radiants have a God, his only option will be to turn his attention to the stars, that's where he'll send his armies to train, and if the Shards still choose to ignore him after that, then Taravangian is right, they all deserve to die.

Odium went to Rosharan system on purpose, even when Tanavast opposed him on Ashyn he stayed until it broke the planet. Why would he leave now, when Dalinar cannot touch him without destroying the planet?

And humans were slowly losing the Desolations, even with Radiants and Honor and Heralds.

Nothing substantial changed about that, in fact, humans are in even worse situation, since Odium directly controls over half of Roshar in either outcome, and has his own Storm now.

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And Gavinor ? Stick him to the floor and keep him there until he listens to sense, and if he doesn't accept that you have failed to protect him and end him. Dalinar is capable of making such a decision difficult though it would be.

If you think Dalinar is capable of killing what is to him a child, his grandnephew even, you have payed zero attention to him.

Even before his character development, Dalinar didn't kill a child, that led to the entire Rift situation later on. And that was Dalinar in his Blackthorn phase, not Bondsmith Dalinar, who puts Journey Before Destination.

Dalinar couldn't kill Gavinor without breaking his Oaths, and hence killing Stormfather.

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"Wait and see, it'll be worth it", sure, we'll get plenty of epic moments no doubt, but going forwards, this will be a "keep your brain at the door" type of series for me, expecting any kind of satisfaction or complexity from the narrative has just left me disappointed for a few books now.

Sure feel free to do that, no one is forcing you to do anything else.

Edited January 11, 2025 by therunner

[MagicMaggot]

 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

We don't KNOW this was the only way, we kept being TOLD it was.

I agree that that is a problem. I do think it follows directy from the setup, though. We couldn't have Dalinar actually thinking through all of the relevant possible futures on the page, because that would be full of spoilers for the rest of the story. If we are told that a divine intellect above Taravangian's best days with divine foresight sees something as the best solution, we kind of have to take it at face value, because it can't go on the page. What will go on the page is book 6-10 proving Dalinar right. I understand why one might not like being shut out from the reasoning, or rather, Sanderson just deciding that a certain conclusion is what would come out of it, without having Dalinar's capacities himself. But that problem has been built in with shards from the start. 

I don't really think you have to understand and agree with Dalinar's decision to enjoy the series, though it might help. But trusting the author to make the result entertaining should be enough. 

50 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Honor can support his followers as he sees fit.

So we would be back at Tanavast's untenable situation. Constant war and constant escalation.

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 Twenty-five hundred years I had protected the cosmere with the blood and lives of my followers. Still the other Shards looked away. As for me … I had promised my people peace and tranquility in death, but in life I gave them only terror and ash.

“You make it as bad as you can each time, don’t you?” I whispered. “You want to break me.”

“You want to know what breaking you could be like, Tanner? I barely attack the children during Desolations. I could order them to slaughter, instead of to war. I’m toying with that for next time. Merely to see your reaction.”

 

And from what we have seen Todium wouldn't have been any nicer than Rayse. The status quo was one that sent humanity back into the stone age every few years, and it could still have become worse. Yeah, oppression until the other shards can deal with it sounds like a much better option to me. 

Time might have ground down the Fused, and they might be kind of mortal now, but there is nothing stopping Todium from creating new ones. Or new Unmade, for that matter. We'll still have to see if Heralds can actually be made functional again, but we know That they can be killed just the same as any fused now. And well, if amateur therapy actually works on heralds, why wouldn't it work on fused? Todium is perfectly able to steal a good idea, if he sees it. Or just to kill the therapists, I guess.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Why not simply tell Wit to go F himself and release Odium ?

That's  question for RoW Dalinar, not WaT Dalinar. He probably should have, if he valued Roshar over the rest of the cosmere, but he didn't have divine foresight then, and his cosmere advisor wasn't exactly neutral. In WaT the rules of the contest had been set. Of course Dalinar could have freed Todium independent of the contest, but the contest would still have happened, and Todium would have had no reason whatsoever to leave Roshar after being freed. He'd just have better  access to ressources from outside. Of course he could have trained forces in the cosmere now, but whyever would he want to just take his whole attention away from the two shards that are on his prime recruitment ground, if he wants to kill them all?

53 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Now under Retribution's rule he'd get vaporized the moment he acts against his oaths.

We actually don't know how Retribution's rule will look like, yet, and how much he can actually personally interfere without leaving him open to the other shards that are now all looking at and for him. 

[Asininity]

10 hours ago, Fractalfire said:

Speaking of which, now that Odium bit the bullet and picked up two shards, what's to stop him from trying to pick up previously shattered ones too? He seems very Ambitious and has Dominion over Roshar and he is Devoted in a twisted way. Plus, Odium shattered those Shards, so perhaps Taravangian knows how to undo that and claim them.

Indeed, Taravangian finds himself backed into a corner, leaving him with little choice but to resort to desperate measures. It’s a plausible scenario, and one that fits his personality and narrative.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Worse outcome than continuation of millennia of war?

The war continues regardless, but it’s no longer a conflict between Honor and Odium. Instead, it’s Retribution versus the rest of the Cosmere. In other words, the conflict has escalated from a planetary scale to a universal one. However, the people of Roshar no longer have a say in which deity they wish to fight for - their agency has been completely stripped away. To me personally, this is the worst outcome.

@Darvys
Exactly, we've been told it's bad but never shown that Final Desolation is actually a big issue. The way I see it, Taravangian got himself in very unfavorable situation when Dalinar ascends.

Dalinar is now effectively the second coming of the Almighty - symbol uniting humanity, spren and some of parshendi. He controls the Highstorm, possesses a level of foresight comparable to Odium’s. The Skybreakers return to his side, the Heralds are improving, the Radiants demolish Fused in combat, and the Unoathed exist.

Azir stays with the coalition, the Shattered Plains lean in their favor. Tukar, Marat, and Shinovar are likely to join now that the “real god” has returned. Optionally winning the contest, gives Alethkar and Herdaz back.

Taravangian faces rebellion on every front. Each sentient Unmade we’ve seen so far has displayed a willingness to betray him. The Singers already have. Ba-Ado-Mishram will rival him for power and drive a schism among the Fused. Meanwhile, human nations are almost guaranteed to convert to Dalinarism, as it’s clearly a better option than following the embodiment of hatred controlled by a backstabbing megalomaniac. What did he gain? Thaylenah. Maybe proved his philosophy.

A ceasefire gives both sides the time to plan, recuperate, and prepare for the final clash. But who’s more likely to emerge victorious? On one side, you have Honor - now controlled by the most accomplished general of the current era, supported by the Radiants and the most militaristic nations of Roshar. On the other, you have Odium - a pseudo-philosopher with no experience in warfare, backed by merchant nations and a host of insane spirits.

Also can someone explain, how freezing Gavinor didn’t end the contest outright? Being unable - or unwilling - to continue should result in an automatic forfeit. Where are the Cosmere lawyers when you need them?

[Darvys]

56 minutes ago, therunner said:

Honor only care that Oaths be kept, you cannot just rescind them without angering the power.

Shards can be cajoled and reasoned with, would Honor like releasing someone else from an Oath ? Probably not, would it permit it ? Yes, if you tell that the result of doing so is in keeping with the Oaths YOU swore, to protect Roshar. Tanavast released the Heralds from most of their responsibilities, against the shard's wishes, and still kept it for 2 thousand years.

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if book is telling you something, that is what it is.

If the book is telling me something that doesn't make sense, I'll call it out, if it keeps stacking incoherent developments I'll drop it and move on.

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Citation needed, Honorspren didn't even listen to Stormfather.

Spren will do what they want, not what Honor tells them. Like people. And now, they would have to risk their live to do so, thanks to anti-light.

Seriously ? 

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Honor didn't infect them with insanity, that was Ishar after he used Odium's power.

By Tanavast's own admission, his deteriorating control of his power, contributed to the Heralds unstability.

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Odium went to Rosharan system on purpose, even when Tanavast opposed him on Ashyn he stayed until it broke the planet. Why would he leave now, when Dalinar cannot touch him without destroying the planet?

He went to Roshar to gain access to the Surges, he has them now. Rayse himself realized in the end that the endless wars were counter productive, that with the Tower reborn, anti-light discovered, he simply could not subdue the Radiants without completely crippling his own forces in the process, and above all ODIUM wants out of the planet, it does not want an endless war.

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If you think Dalinar is capable of killing what is to him a child, his grandnephew even, you have payed zero attention to him.

Gavinor is no longer a child, he is a man deceived, as I said, stick him to the tower and take as much time as you need to reach him, Odium cannot interfere without surrendering the contest. If Gavinor, the man, insists on dying on his deluded hill, then let him.

 

47 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Of course he could have trained forces in the cosmere now, but whyever would he want to just take his whole attention away from the two shards that are on his prime recruitment ground, if he wants to kill them all?

For the same reason Rayse did, the power itself demands its freedom, make it conditional on never returning to harm Roshar and its people, and Odium will force Taravangian to take the deal.

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We actually don't know how Retribution's rule will look like, yet, and how much he can actually personally interfere without leaving him open to the other shards that are now all looking at and for him. 

Odium seemed perfectly capable of massacring the singers who opposed him by El's testimony, I have no clue how shardic battles even occur, so that opens the door to unlimited handwaving, Oh retribution couldn't do this or he'd be killed, but that was fine to do due to nebulous rules we know nothing about. A story only dictated by the whims of the author where speculation is meaningless because the rules are never explained doesn't really appeal to me.

[MagicMaggot]

20 minutes ago, Darvys said:

For the same reason Rayse did, the power itself demands its freedom, make it conditional on never returning to harm Roshar and its people, and Odium will force Taravangian to take the deal.

Taravangian is no more forced to make the deal than Rayse was forced to reject it. The power doesn't like it, but it is by no means a dealbreaker. Todium probably wouldn't have much of a problem focussing it on all the passion there was to be had in the divine cagematch, instead of what it couldn't do outside for now. And given some strategic cruelty Dalinar would only have gotten more desperate over time, not less, so the deals on offer certainly wouldn't have gotten worse. 

 

20 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I have no clue how shardic battles even occur, so that opens the door to unlimited handwaving,

We don't know all the rules, yet, but we do know that the more they interfere, the easier they are to get hold of, and the more their limited attention is bound. Connection and all that. That's enough for now and it is the reason why the last chapters have a timeskip of a few months before Retribution even has the breathing room to focus on Roshar at all. What Odium could do while no one cared is totally irrelevant, this is a new situation that will be explored in new novels. 

And with Sanderson and his rules of magic you can be quite sure that the mechanics of divine confrontations will be explained more in depth the more they are relevant to solving plot issues. 

Edited January 11, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Asininity said:

The war continues regardless, but it’s no longer a conflict between Honor and Odium. Instead, it’s Retribution versus the rest of the Cosmere. In other words, the conflict has escalated from a planetary scale to a universal one. However, the people of Roshar no longer have a say in which deity they wish to fight for - their agency has been completely stripped away. To me personally, this is the worst outcome.

That escalation was invetiable, it was the entire goal of Rayse to do that. And Retribution does not start any universal conflict, instead he goes into hiding because he is not ready.

That is a straight up upgrade, Odium/Retribution cannot be as present on Roshar as he was.

People of Coalition also won't be forced to fight in that conflict, and have peace for now, which is again improvement. Neither do people of Theylen, or of the Listener nation.

So no, people of Roshar still have some choice in the matter.

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Shards can be cajoled and reasoned with, would Honor like releasing someone else from an Oath ? Probably not, would it permit it ? Yes, if you tell that the result of doing so is in keeping with the Oaths YOU swore, to protect Roshar. Tanavast released the Heralds from most of their responsibilities, against the shard's wishes, and still kept it for 2 thousand years.

Honor was cajoled for millennia by Tanavast, and didn't like it, since then developed rudimentary mind.

Do you really think it could be reasoned with?

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

If the book is telling me something that doesn't make sense, I'll call it out, if it keeps stacking incoherent developments I'll drop it and move on.

If you think it does not make sense, sure.

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By Tanavast's own admission, his deteriorating control of his power, contributed to the Heralds unstability.

At most I am seeing that Heralds cannot hold so much of Honor's power, nothing about Tanavast deteriorating control, but perhaps I am just not searching properly.

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Citation needed, Honorspren didn't even listen to Stormfather.

Spren will do what they want, not what Honor tells them. Like people. And now, they would have to risk their live to do so, thanks to anti-light.

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Seriously ? 

Yes. If you think spren will blindly follow Honor, please do provide any evidence.

Per Tanavast himself, they were created to have ideas of their own. And indeed they do, some aligned with Odium even. Some chose to sit the war out entirely. Some chose third side. They are not monolith.

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He went to Roshar to gain access to the Surges, he has them now. Rayse himself realized in the end that the endless wars were counter productive, that with the Tower reborn, anti-light discovered, he simply could not subdue the Radiants without completely crippling his own forces in the process, and above all ODIUM wants out of the planet, it does not want an endless war.

He had access to them back on Ashyn, if it was so simple, why didn't he leave when confronted?

Invested Arts are dependent on Shard, but also on the planet/star system, so he likely couldn't just get up and recreate Surgebinding from scratch, at least not very easily.

And he does not need to subdue Radiants, as has been repeated ad nausem, Shardbearers/Radiants cannot keep ground, you need conventional forces for that. And Odium has advantage there.

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Gavinor is no longer a child, he is a man deceived, as I said, stick him to the tower and take as much time as you need to reach him, Odium cannot interfere without surrendering the contest. If Gavinor, the man, insists on dying on his deluded hill, then let him.

To you he is man grown, because you are reading a book.

To Dalinar, he is his grandnephew he saw few hours ago. He won't just mentally switch like that, no one would.

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For the same reason Rayse did, the power itself demands its freedom, make it conditional on never returning to harm Roshar and its people, and Odium will force Taravangian to take the deal.

While the power wants to be free, it also wants conflict. So staying, while maintaing conflict to get free, is valid, while suboptimal.

Power didn't stop Rayse from making deal that would see its imprisonment continue, so there is no way it would force Taravangian to accept that deal.
 

[Darvys]

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

TPeople of Coalition also won't be forced to fight in that conflict, and have peace for now, which is again improvement. Neither do people of Theylen, or of the Listener nation.

So no, people of Roshar still have some choice in the matter.

Yay 10% of Roshar is free to live in isolation and misery, while the rest either joins his armies or dies from lack of war-light to keep their lands fertile.

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Do you really think it could be reasoned with?

Yes, even after Dalinar broke all the Oaths, Honor STILL wanted him as a vessel so long as he agreed to fight, had he kept his own side of the bargain there is no doubt in my mind that Honor would have been content to release Odium. 

Though it was in vision, Dalinar stood with the Heralds and swore he would protect Roshar and its people, Honor witnessed that Oath, if freeing Odium is how it's done, Honor should by all rights consent.

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Yes. If you think spren will blindly follow Honor, please do provide any evidence.

The spren hold back because they believe the humans betrayed them in the Recreance, we now know that not only the decision was shared by the Radiant spren, but that it was also motivated by a vision from Honor that the Radiants misinterpreted, with Honor back to correct that mistake and once again limit the surges, with Dalinar's ascension and Kaladin's elevation as proof that humans' honor is alive and well, give me a single reason why the spren would not come back, cowardice ? From the younger spren maybe, but the old Radiant spren are healing, when THEY rejoin the fight do you really think the rest would dishonor themselves by sitting it out ? I have a hard time imagining it.

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To Dalinar, he is his grandnephew he saw few hours ago. He won't just mentally switch like that, no one would.

Again, as I said, stick him to the roof for years on end if you have to, there's no deadline on the contest, keep him there till he dies of old age if that's what it takes and if you think Gavinor is that stupid.

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He had access to them back on Ashyn, if it was so simple, why didn't he leave when confronted?

That was seven thousand years ago when both vessel and shard thought they were raising armies with the constant wars, when Ashyn was destroyed he lost his surgebinders, he raised new armies on Roshar and was confident he could eventually dominate the planet and gain the Radiants to his cause. 

Taln said no you can't do that, and that led to where we are, a power desperate to leave the planet, a vessel scrambling to salvage an army sufficient for his plans, then Taravangian happened.

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While the power wants to be free, it also wants conflict. So staying, while maintaing conflict to get free, is valid, while suboptimal.

Power didn't stop Rayse from making deal that would see its imprisonment continue, so there is no way it would force Taravangian to accept that deal.

Staying means there is no conflict for who knows how long until the humans attack, all Dalinar would have to do is keep the humans in line until Odium rejects Taravangian. 

You say he would torture his people to force a war ? Have you forgotten what fuels Odium's anger ? Why it wants all the other shards dead ? It's for the misery they cause to innocents with their neglect, what do you think it'll make of its own Vessel if he decides to just start oppressing its own people for no fault of their own ?

[Asininity]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That escalation was invetiable, it was the entire goal of Rayse to do that. And Retribution does not start any universal conflict, instead he goes into hiding because he is not ready.

That is a straight up upgrade, Odium/Retribution cannot be as present on Roshar as he was.

People of Coalition also won't be forced to fight in that conflict, and have peace for now, which is again improvement. Neither do people of Theylen, or of the Listener nation.

So no, people of Roshar still have some choice in the matter.

The whole point of Sunmaker Gambit was forcing other players to escalate, so obviously Retribution has no say in starting anything. The war has already begun. Shards outnumber him and would happily destroy him, along with the whole system in open clash. But since they cannot force a direct confrontation with him in hiding, the second best option is to go after his power base - Roshar itself. 

I disagree with every other point you made, but we’ve strayed far enough from the original point of this thread.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

Yay 10% of Roshar is free to live in isolation and misery, while the rest either joins his armies or dies from lack of war-light to keep their lands fertile.

You say he would torture his people to force a war ? Have you forgotten what fuels Odium's anger ? Why it wants all the other shards dead ? It's for the misery they cause to innocents with their neglect, what do you think it'll make of its own Vessel if he decides to just start oppressing its own people for no fault of their own ?

So which is it, is Odium unwilling to hurt his subjects, or will he force them to suffer due to lack of warlight?
You can't have it both ways.

Plus, Odium didn't seem to have problem with Desolations, hells Rayse mentions that next time he will purposefully go after innocents, just to see what Tanavast will do. His entire reaction to destruction of Ashyn was "Well, that got out of hand, lol". Odium is not as caring as you portray it as being.

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The spren hold back because they believe the humans betrayed them in the Recreance, we now know that not only the decision was shared by the Radiant spren, but that it was also motivated by a vision from Honor that the Radiants misinterpreted, with Honor back to correct that mistake and once again limit the surges, with Dalinar's ascension and Kaladin's elevation as proof that humans' honor is alive and well, give me a single reason why the spren would not come back, cowardice ? From the younger spren maybe, but the old Radiant spren are healing, when THEY rejoin the fight do you really think the rest would dishonor themselves by sitting it out ? I have a hard time imagining it.

Honorspren learned that in RoW, their leadership didn't care, and they didn't send anyone to help. Few left, but that was it.
They even imprisoned a Herald, when he tried to do something they didn't like.

Spren don't worship Honor, and won't blindly follow whatever he says.

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That was seven thousand years ago when both vessel and shard thought they were raising armies with the constant wars, when Ashyn was destroyed he lost his surgebinders, he raised new armies on Roshar and was confident he could eventually dominate the planet and gain the Radiants to his cause. 

But why didn't he leave Ashyn with his surgebinders in the first place? If he already has surgebidning, why not leave?

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Staying means there is no conflict for who knows how long until the humans attack, all Dalinar would have to do is keep the humans in line until Odium rejects Taravangian. 

All Taravangian has to do is provoke the humans, and Dalinar doesn't have such direct control over his people.

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Yes, even after Dalinar broke all the Oaths, Honor STILL wanted him as a vessel so long as he agreed to fight, had he kept his own side of the bargain there is no doubt in my mind that Honor would have been content to release Odium.

That was Tanavast, not Dalinar.

And fighting Odium directly is the exact thing Dalinar wants to avoid, because it would destroy Roshar.

[Darvys]

57 minutes ago, therunner said:

So which is it, is Odium unwilling to hurt his subjects, or will he force them to suffer due to lack of warlight?
You can't have it both ways.

Odium is not a benevolent Intent, I find it would be far easier to defend suffering resulting from the rejection of the help the vessel offered, than the active enslavement and oppression of subjects, you're free to disagree. 

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Plus, Odium didn't seem to have problem with Desolations, hells Rayse mentions that next time he will purposefully go after innocents, just to see what Tanavast will do. His entire reaction to destruction of Ashyn was "Well, that got out of hand, lol". Odium is not as caring as you portray it as being.

You seem unwilling to acknowledge that the passage of thousands of years could have an impact on the Shard's patience and its tolerance of the vessel's shenanigans, I can't help with that any further.

Edit: I'll add to this, that while Rayse wasn't rejected as Tanavast was, Odium was looking for a better fit, and according to Wit hated its current vessel.

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Honorspren learned that in RoW, their leadership didn't care, and they didn't send anyone to help. Few left, but that was it.
They even imprisoned a Herald, when he tried to do something they didn't like.

Spren don't worship Honor, and won't blindly follow whatever he says.

Because they rationalize it as those entities turning away from Honor, what will their justification be to refuse Honor's own directives ? That Honor is betraying itself ? 

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But why didn't he leave Ashyn with his surgebinders in the first place? If he already has surgebidning, why not leave?

He was training and preparing them in the wars he orchestrated, with Honor's intervention the escalation led to Ashyn's destruction ... At this point you're just being obtuse.

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All Taravangian has to do is provoke the humans, and Dalinar doesn't have such direct control over his people.

Dalinar, King of Urithiru now ascended to godhood as Honor couldn't keep his followers from war ?

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That was Tanavast, not Dalinar.

True, I got mixed up. The tidbit wasn't needed for the point I was making, I see no reason for Honor to refuse Odium's release, if it could forgive Tanavast for his immense transgressions.

At this point I think I've said all that needs to be said to present my views on this matter, no need to keep repeating myself, and as was pointed out, while relevant, this discussion is rather tangential to the thread. 

Edited January 11, 2025 by Darvys

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 1/6/2025 at 5:23 AM, clowncarcrash said:

Eh, I think the therapy stuff was always there. Like, in all the books Kaladin struggles with depression and obviously Shallan has her Dissociative identity disorder. Like, the entire premise of Knights Radiants are people with broken spiritwebs. I don't think you can form a nahel bond if you're a well adjusted person. While your opinion is valid, I don't think thats applicable to what I was saying. Like Dalinar didn't do reach his decision over a breakthrough session at therapy. His decision is more about questioning honor and being done with honor when its not useful. 

Yes, the therapy stuff was there, but it felt like it was a more secondary element. My problem is that in the last couple of books, the focus on mental health has expanded to the point where it completely displaces the focus on virtue and honor that drew me to the books in the first place.

On 1/6/2025 at 1:23 PM, Nitpicking said:

Just as an exercise, can you name any well adjusted people in the books? Or real life?

In Real Life? My father, mother, sister, brother-in-law, my pastor, I would assume my co-workers (I only know them at work, but I've worked in the same office as most of these people for years without them displaying any notable mental issues)...

In the books? Adolin, Lopen, Yawnagan, Sebarial, probably more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

On 1/6/2025 at 2:19 PM, Mage of Lirigon said:

The moral of the story is to think critically about your morals.

Any moral system you use without thinking about the context behind it is like a house with a bad foundation. When a disaster happens it's going to collapse and you might get hurt with it.

Being a moral person isn't about following a set of rules someone gave you, it's about asking questions about how those rules came about in the first place and how they relate to your life. That's the most practical fashion in which morality can impact people. That's what Sanderson was trying to teach in this novel.

Hmm... I think I can agree with that moral, but I don't feel like that was the lesson I got from the book. Except maybe in the debate between Jasnah and Taravangian, where it felt to me like Jasnah failed because she didn't have any fundamental basis for her morality, that she was just following her instincts as to what was right and wrong even though her worldview didn't actually give her a concrete basis for making ethical decisions. But based on what Sanderson has said in interviews about writing Jasnah, I don't think that was the message he meant to send. 

I suppose I can also see that moral in Szeth's arc through the book (and through the previous ones, honestly). I just don't see it in Dalinar's choices.

On 1/6/2025 at 8:36 PM, Soccorro said:

That’s why Dalinar wasn’t be able to overcome his rigid morality and failed to kill one dude, ruined the planet, ruined knight radiants, ruined spren and failed everyone because he didn’t want to lose useless moral debate with old fart

On 1/7/2025 at 5:54 AM, therunner said:

It's less that, and more:
"Realize that the contest wouldn't actually resolve and change anything, and in fact plays into TOdium's hands."

Sticking to a plan when situation changed would be stupid.

I think this is a big part of the problem we're facing in attempting to analyze this story: we haven't yet seen how this twist is going to play out. Tolkien did something very similar in The Lord Of The Rings, where it was a major theme (at least as I read the books) that victory achieved by immoral means is not worth having and that it is better to let the world burn than to save it by the enemy's methods. We are told that if Gandalf or Galadriel or Boromir had taken the Ring and used it to overthrow Sauron they would inevitably have become an evil as great as Sauron himself.

But in LOTR, our judgement of Gandalf's and the Fellowship's actions must inevitably be shaded by the fact that we know that they won, that in the end Gandalf's gambit paid off. It's difficult to answer the question "If the Quest had failed and Sauron had reclaimed the ring, would we still say that Gandalf and the Fellowship had made the best choices they could?" with complete objectivity. By the same notion, if Sanderson wants to really convince us that Dalinar made the right choice, he's going to have to use future books (both Stormlight and possibly non-Stormlight) to do it. Only once we have books 6-10 (or at the very least book 6) will we be able to properly judge book 5.

Actually, I wonder if that is what Sanderson is going for? He's talked before about how Mistborn grew out of his desire to write a "What if the Dark Lord had won?" story, what if this is a different permutation on that idea? What if Sanderson asked himself "Okay, can I write a story where Sauron takes the Ring and still convince my readers that sending the Ring to Mount Doom was the right choice? And simultaneously, what happens when the Dark Lord really and truly wins, even more so than in Mistborn?"

[Schneeente]

On 1/6/2025 at 8:19 PM, Mage of Lirigon said:

The moral of the story is to think critically about your morals.

Yeah, I totally agree and I think that's why some people here (even in this thread) are seriously upset. If anything Brandon Sanderson shows us in all the Stormlight Archive books that there is no easy answer. And there certainly is not a single, easy answer. Life is messy, complicated, wonderful, and you can be a great person regardless of your skin color, your religion, or whatever arbitrary dividing line we are able to come up with. You can even be a great person if you are not a human! Who would have thought. 

The logical conclusion (for me) is that we don't have excuses if you do terrible things - we are responsible for our actions. And we have to live with the consequences. 

 

On 12/16/2024 at 12:27 AM, clowncarcrash said:

Really interesting conclusion because I thought this ending was going to be about the breaking point of “Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one.” Cool ideal but is that true when we're talking about millions? So yeah, I wanted to gauge the room and ask what everyone else got from it because I'm very conflicted as to what I think Brandon was going for.

To answer the second question first: I don't think Sanderson has something specific in mind he wants to teach/show us. He's just telling a story, and if we want to learn something from it, we'll have to do the hard part ourselves

 

The second question is much harder.  Because very seldom "in life" (even in a fantasy book) is it "you kill that person or one million random other people will die". I think the conflict with Jasnah & Taravangian has shown that Jasnah would probably rather have 1 million random people die that she doesn't know that one member of her family (or all of them). Sanderson showed us beautifully with her character that blathering about "biggest common good" is easy, and you can even convince yourself that you would rather safe 10, 100, 1000, or a million random people than your one person you care about... but I am sceptical, I think if the light is out and nobody would know what you choose, most people would rather safe their family / partner / friends than random strangers, even if according to the numbers they "should have" done differently.