Mistborn Series length

[PanicPug]

Let's start with a short and probably slightly controversial statement to get a discussion going and dive a bit more into the details afterwards:

I feel like Sanderson in the Mistborn series tends to overstay the perfect length/amount of books.

 

What do I mean by that?

First off, I have read all published Cosmere works, all (besides The Lost Metal yet) multiple times, and am a huge fan. Like with any franchise there's of course stories, worlds, characters and so on which I enjoy more and others I do less so, though with the Cosmere it generally leans way more to the enjoy side obviously and I love to get lost in the stories and worlds

What I'd really love to hear different opinions about and arguments for is the amount and length of Mistborn stories so far.

I personally feel like the amount of Mistborn stories/pages supersedes the amount of content, meaning that it feels unnecessarily much or dragging on at times. Examples would be most of Well Of Ascension, the majority of the siege of Fadrex city in Hero Of Ages and kinda all of the Wax And Wayne books besides Alloy Of Law. It's not the length of the books per se either, since I for example don't have the same feelings when it comes to The Stormlight Archive books.

The Final Empire did not feel like that to me and I enjoyed it immensely. I think it had a great plot, fantastic characters, a very original world, awesome magic system and a very fitting length for the plot.

The Well Of Ascension felt like a typical second book of a trilogy to me with an unnecessary love triangle and not too much happening altogether. I really loved the idea of filling and managing a power vacuum and all that, but all in all it didn't hook nor hold me as much as the first one.

The Hero Of Ages had a great premise but dragged on too long for me and I have the feeling that it could have profited from being shortened, maybe to as much as half its length.

Spoiler

The very real threat of a full on apocalypse had me hooked and the conclusion I really enjoyed though.

The Alloy Of Law I enjoyed immensely, since it had such a different feel to it, almost a penny dreadful/dime novel kind of thing, slightly trashy with stereotypical characters and plot (and I mean that in the best kind of way).

Spoiler

I also really enjoyed the glimpse into how the world and magic changed after the Catacendre though I am quite sad that it's now a generic Earth-like planet.

The rest of the Wax and Wayne books to me felt rather superfluous and I think I'd have enjoyed it more, if it would have been something else that introduced the important pieces for the setup of Era 3 (if at all, because it would've otherwise probably been incorporated into Era 3 directly); maybe a few more dime novels in the style of AoL, but focused on entirely new characters instead of the full length novels about the same cast (even if I did really enjoy Steris portrayal and character development in the later books, especially tLM).

Spoiler

The introduction of the Southern Scadrians and their technologies was very interesting though and I'd have loved to learn more about them, their cultures and the environments instead. Maybe even have a dime novel focused on characters from their ranks or something

Mistborn: Secret History I have mixed feelings about, it's definitely something that can be detrimental to the enjoyment of the series if read too early (wouldn't recommend it before Bands Of Mourning). Here I also have the feeling that it's mostly superfluous. I did quite enjoy the subplot with the Eyree though and I love how much information we got about the CR and Cosmere mechanics, but I'm not sure I needed most of the story how the protagonist of M:SH was secretly influencing stuff from behind the scenes.

 

I'm aware these are my very personal opinions, based on my own tastes and preferences. (I did also talk about the topic with multiple friends and acquaintances who read the books, and they mostly mirrored my feelings on the matter.)

But since this all is based so deeply on personal preferences I'm super interested in what others think about it and thought the forums would probably be a great place place to ask and discuss it

 

(I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this, if not, please feel free to move the topic to the correct one )

[Treamayne]

Interesting Synopsis. That said, my take seems significantly different.

Era 1:

Spoiler

TFE:

Great kickoff, but really could have used another few chapters to flesh everything out and really bring it all together for the climax. Time jumps really make a jumble of the timeline for many readers. I wonder if it was kept so short mostly because it was to be his second book, and first of the series. Becomes more obvious when looking at the Omnibus and comparing the scant 38 Chapters of TFE to 59 and 82 for WoA and HoA respectively.

WoA:

10 hours ago, PanicPug said:

The Well Of Ascension felt like a typical second book of a trilogy to me with an unnecessary love triangle and not too much happening altogether.

Frankly, I see this opinion far too often and it kinda irks me. When I see this opinion, it seems to me that what the person is really saying is usually one of the following:

• I don't like the Zane plot, therefore I don't like WoA
• I prefer action over drama, therefore I don't like WoA (usually also dislikes Elantris)
• I don't like non-linear character growth, therefore I don't like WoA

WoA might be the strongest of the Trilogy*, and it is definitely not "typical second book" - if for no other reason that how it was written (all three written at once, then divided, then edited and polished). Does it have "issues?" - Yes. Are some of those problems reader misunderstandings? - Yes. For example:

Spoiler

If you take the Zane Triangle at face value, rather than realizing 1) Zane was there to foreshadow Hemalurgy 2) Vin could not commit to Elend until she actually dealt with latent-Kelsier-Mentor-Crush feelings in a realistic way (ignoring the flashing signpost was not realistic). Zane was never going to "woo" Vin and that was not his function in the story, and when you read the story accepting that, the foreshadowing and nuance shines rather than being obscured by reader-upset over the subplot existing at all.

*Note: By strongest, I mean we had actual character growth as-promised in the first volume, enough length to deal with the subplots and a tonne of groundwork necessary to the entire trilogy - Koloss, Kandra, Hemalurgy (basics), Allomantic nuance (we can't see from a Vin PoV), Feruchemy, and really-well-done character arcs. Action light, yes - Realmatic Heavy!

Needless to say, I like WoA. I like the trilogy as a whole, and while the secodn book might not be as "sexy" as the opening and closing, it really does a lot for the story as a whole. Of all the Annotations available for early Sanderson books, WoA might be the most important one to read (possibly tied with Warbreaker/Elantris for how much the annotations help to understand why the book is the way it is). 

HoA:

Great conclusion to the story. Slightly too long, possibly. If some of the prep had been moved to TFE/WoA then I think all three would be stronger - but that does not mean it is not good. It's great. The whole trilogy is great. But I do feel that it could have been slightly better if trimmed a bit and some worldbuilding moved to earlier.

 

Short Fiction:

Spoiler

Eleventh Metal - Originally written for the MAG, and it shows. The limitations of original prose appearing in an RPG guidebook always makes me wish what more Brandon could/would have done with this story without those strings attached. I do like the story, but I miss the story-that-could-have-been too.

Mistborn: Secret History - Might be my favorite of all of Era 1. The timing for release was so well executed, and the Realmatics revealed were phenomenal (especially for those of us that were following all along - so many questions that are easily answered now were very unknown and first hinted here. It was enough to launch my sync project, as well as my epub editing hobby (which really started with the Dresden Omnibus, but moved from functional editing to curating personal copies with this project). Khriss, Ire, Shards, Futuresight, Spiritual Realm, Drifter. Excellent on all counts.
I do agree with the Spoiler Warning (important enough for Brandon to mention in Arcanum Unbounded) and teh first read really really should wait for after BoM - but an Era 1 re-read is not complete with this integrated in all future re-reads.

Era 2:

Spoiler

Alloy of Law - Way too short, and it really needs a preamble to explain this WoB. I have a few friends and coworkers from the time that this released that gave up on Sanderson over this book - and I almost joined them. In my experience, knowing that Mistborn (overall) was originally pitched as a trilogy of trilogies, showing the same world at different technologocial points is key to enjoying AoL. Back when this was new, many of us did not know that - and the tone, content, world shift was so extreme, that some gave up on the series (at this point, my corworkers and I didn't truely realize that Elantris, Warbreaker and Mistborn were all connected when I read this while deployed). Still difficult to really enjoy AoL, but I accept some of that is long-carried over from my initial reactions before realizing the place this had in the greater scheme (or that there even was a greater scheme). Now, I make sure to tell people that they probably do not want to go to AoL after HoA. Finish the first trilogy, read some other Cosmere stuff in-between (especially Elantris, Warbreaker and The Emporer's Soul, if those were not yet read), then come back to Scadrial knowing that the tech jump and worldbuilding is deliberate and part of a larger scheme.

Shadows of Self - This story is in a weird place for me. It's my favorite of Era 2 - just I wish it did not exist. Era 2 really should have been a trilogy, not a quartet; but HIndsight is a cruel partner - and when AoL was penned, there was no plan to expand that story into a while new Era. So, while I wish some of the worldbuilding in this story had been in AoL, I realize why it was not. If we could have moved that forward one book, then moved Bleeder's arc to New Seran, I think Era 2 would have been a strong trilogy rather than a marginal quartet. That said, I really like Bleeder's arc, and I like the storyline, worldbuilding and character development.

Bands of Mourning - Great, for some of what is revealed and foreshadowed (Southern Continent, Medallions, etc.) but the Set and the overall story was good, not great (see above). That really sums up the book. Good, not great.

The Lost Metal - Easily my least favorite of all Mistborn Books. If Tress is the shining example of Cosmere Crossover done right, this is the opposite - Cosmere crossover done wrong. I felt that the cameos, plot-digressions, etc. were all brute-force face slaps (maybe needed for those that were not really following how different sereis were connected) that felt like Brandon worried that readers might not understand something more subtle. The story was not horrible, the realmatics were a cross between interesting (Avatars) and shoehorned (Kaise, Shai). I worry that I am missing better parts of the book because the Worldhoppers are just so blatent and annoying that I find it hard to look for the good stuff. Cut some of the crossover to the background, and focus on Wax, Steris, Wayne, and Marasi and I think I might have enjoyed this story more.

Sorry if all of that came off for more rant-heavy than intended.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG/Links

[brass dragon she/her]

I think Final Empire and Secret History are the best of Mistborn in this regard. However, I must admit that sometimes I like long books, even if some things are redundant in the story. Just for spending more time with the characters and seeing more details. I love WoA and HoA for this reason.

About Era2

AoL is my least favorite in Mistborn. Although I still love it, I think it was a bit short and insufficient for this collection. Its combination with Shadows of Self would be better.

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The Lost Metal - Easily my least favorite of all Mistborn Books.

Since reading tLM, I'm surprised so many people didn't like it. But I'm still new to Cosmere. Maybe that's why I get excited at every mention of other worlds.

[Treamayne]

On 11/4/2024 at 5:29 AM, brass dragon said:

Since reading tLM, I'm surprised so many people didn't like it. But I'm still new to Cosmere. Maybe that's why I get excited at every mention of other worlds.

Many of us also get excited at the mention of Worldhoppers and other Manifestations of Investiture. However, (Stormlight Archive, Tress Spoilers):

Spoiler

It is the difference in execution. Consider, for example:

• Vasher is Zahel - but that's never truly stated in SA
  • Ditto Azure/Vivenna
• Felt (Oathbringer trip to Nightwatcher) is Felt (TFE - Spies on Sazed and the Crew, WoA - investigates the Canal Grate)
  • Subtle enough to ask for a WoB because it could have been a coincidental name (at least in WoR, and probably why his one-liner in OB was more blatent)
• Ulaam is a Kandra, but that too is never really stated
• Xisis used Awakening at the 10th Heightening (most likely, still not 100% confirmed)
• Kelsier's mention in RoW (so easy to miss on the first readthrough, especially if you are not expecting it)

Then we have TLM

• Codenames is Kaise (or wait, if you didn't catch the first three blatent hints, she'll also mention Adien)
• Moonlight is Shai (cannot count the number of times this was metaphorically foot-stomped)
• etc.

I fully realize Brandon has said he is moving toward more integration, I'm just saying that there is feeling of accomplishemnt when the clue-light clicks and realize X=Y; and that wholly missing from TLM, which reduced my enjoyment of the book.

I know in my head that Brandon's intent was simply to bring worldhoppers to the foreground for the majority of readers that are not Sharder-level fans - but it feels in my heart like he was figuratively saying:

"I'll make this blatent, because you can't figure it out if I don't.
<Foot Stomp>
Autonomy is not the only off-Scadrial interest active, and possibly meddling, in the future of the Metalborn"

I missed that feeling, and that reduced how much I enjoyed TLM. I cannot speak for others.

Edited January 23, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[brass dragon she/her]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Stormlight Archive, Tress Spoilers):

hmmff

Ireally need to read these two...

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, brass dragon said:

hmmff

Ireally need to read these two...

Maybe consider editing your Intro Post with an updated "Complete" list (or add to your profile) so we can easily find what might be spoilers and tag them appropriately. This Thread (and many others) discuss reading order considerations (which things spoiler which other things). If you need it, the Shard FAQ has tips on editing posts (and other forum functions). 

[PanicPug]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry if all of that came off for more rant-heavy than intended

Don't be, they are personal opinions and tastes so they can be as rant-y as we like plus I'd argue that my initial post already is quite rant-heavy to start with

I'm really enjoying this discussion

As to your points:

Era 1:

What I meant by saying WoA feels like a typical second part of a trilogy to me is that it felt like it's there to set up the third book rather than tell it's own story whereas tFE feels more self-contained.

You make good points regarding the love triangle, but to me it felt a bit too cliché and the important stuff (hemalurgy foreshadowing & allomantic nuance) would've worked without that.

I do love Elantris, Warbreaker and especially The Emperor's Soul which are all less action heavy so it's not that I don't enjoy that (though even the two novels are quite a bit shorter than WoA IIRC). I think for me it's maybe more the contrast to the first book, which set up the series as more action focused whereas the other examples set the expectation for calmer books (though Warbreaker a bit less so with the Vasher intro).

I admit that I only read very few of the annotations overall and I'd argue that a book should work on its own in the first place and give these kinds of information as a bonus; though I also do appreciate all of the annotations and WOBs for the added information and depth it gives us for the works.

I enjoyed the trilogy as a whole and the points that I don't enjoy as much are complains at a high level to begin with

 

Era 2:

It's very fascinating to me that so many people were put off so much by AoL, but as you said it probably has a lot to do with when you read it and what you expect. Coming from the grand epic that is Era 1 the contrast might be quite jarring. I'm not sure when I read it for the first time (I know I started with The Stormlight Archive 1-3, then Mistborn Era 1, but I'm honestly not sure anymore if I read Era 2 right then or after Elantris and Warbreaker), but I really enjoyed it being short and somewhat goofy and obviously cliché, but in a deliberate way.

I'm absolutely with you @Treamayne that the Cosmere/worldhopper parts in tLM felt very blunt and fan-service-y in a bad way, especially compared to tSA or TotES. And I think it's somewhat unfortunate, because one of the appeals of the Cosmere stories is that there's much interconnectivity that can heighten the enjoyment if you know the works in question, but isn't required and therefore doesn't impair said enjoyment of a story on its own.

10 hours ago, brass dragon said:

I think Final Empire and Secret History are the best of Mistborn in this regard. However, I must admit that sometimes I like long books, even if some things are redundant in the story. Just for spending more time with the characters and seeing more details. I love WoA and HoA for this reason.

I love that you say that. When I recently talked about the topic with a friend, this was one of the points I suggested could be an argument for the length of the books and how I could totally understand it since it's something I myself have wished for in fantasy worlds I enjoyed immensely

5 hours ago, brass dragon said:

Ireally need to read these two...

No pressure but oh yes, definitely do that, I think you won't be disappointed

[Returned he/him]

I can appreciate what you're saying, and I agree with some of it.

As far as the original trilogy, I loved them all. Final Empire is the best (for me) because of its originality, scope, and characters. It's focused and tightly written.

Well of Ascension I enjoyed quite a bit as well, though I will agree that a lot of the development there is internal to the characters rather than the world overall (Vin and Elend especially). I enjoyed seeing Vin's doubts and struggles but I agree that the love triangle was not an ideal vehicle for showing it-- it worked, but was a bit flat because Vin's attachment to Elend always felt very arbitrary to me, and her attraction to Zane was better developed but still not very deep. My biggest problem with WoA is that Elend's character never quite came together for me, which is a problem when he is so central to the novel's events and plot. He's an idealist with every possible resource (especially Vin), and his arc is that he comes to understand the constraints of reality late and underappreciates how much those constraints damage his plans and goals. Elend does bow to this (thanks to Tindwyl), but it's not so clear what he becomes instead of his youthful, idealist self. He's just... some guy who assembles compliance out of a desperate situation. He doesn't feel that different from Penrod or Philen in the end, which was unsatisfying given how different Elend was from everyone around him at the start.

Hero of Ages I liked more than WoA but I felt suffered somewhat from the introduction of so many new groups (Fadrex under Yomen, Urteau under the Citizen, the Kandra homeland and its residents, the Koloss and their system of organization). The general air of pathetic-ness to all of the jockeying that comes with the impending apocalypse made it hard for me to get so invested in all of these, regardless of how interesting the details were to me. The storage cavern scavenger hunt Vin and Elend were focused on also didn't feel quite as grand as their earlier exploits, and Spook's interest in Beldre also felt very arbitrary and tacked-on to me. But overall I was satisfied with how HoA tied up all of the threads and hints from the previous two books and provided the sweeping, epic conclusion I'd been craving.

So, of the original trilogy, I don't feel that the books were bloated or overstayed their welcome. The things I disliked about them were more about how the core plot developed, and the elements of the plot I disliked meant that the parts which focused on those elements were less interesting to me even when they were directly a part of moving the plot forward.

I feel that the era 2 books are all superfluous (not that that makes them bad, but they aren't necessary to the series in the way that WoA is necessary for the original three books). They have a lot to recommend them, and I really enjoyed the themes that they explored (particularly Shadows of Self). But the books overall felt more like fan fiction to me than proper entries in the grand scope of the Scadrial novels, and the weaker foundations (what we now call era 2 started as a writing exercise) were very difficult to overcome. I still enjoyed Alloy of Law, Shadows of Self, and Bands of Mourning quite a lot but tempered my expectations of them-- I don't think it's quite fair to compare era 2 with era 1 given the (apparent) difference in inspiration and purpose between them. The Lost Metal was... OK in its own right, but I felt it had a ton of filler that was only meant to reference other Cosmere settings and suffered greatly as a result. It answers very few questions, even those raised specifically by the preceding era 2 books (I expected to learn more than nothing about Southern Scadrial, for example), its groups are sketchily constructed and flimsily situated in the world, and overall I feel that the book can't make a very strong case for its own existence. I don't fault people for enjoying it, and it definitely has its bit to offer, but I personally was brutally disappointed by it and it's my least favorite Cosmere book of all.

Finally, I think that Secret History was pretty good although it, too, is largely focused on filling in gaps in other Cosmere settings more than it is dealing with Scadrial. I think that Kelsier is a great character and so seeing him in a proactive role (as opposed to him inThe Eleventh Metal) is generally interesting to me. Its one element necessary to the other Mistborn books (explaining the mysterious figure Vin chased over rooftops) was annoying to me in that it was an obvious loose thread from the earlier books which was only explained so much later and so bluntly. I generally dislike the practice of mini-works and other formats being necessary to consume the mainline works' stories, so I am generally biased against individually published novellas and short stories like this (and Dawnshard, and similar). Being published in a compendium of similar works eased my annoyance in this case, however.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Returned