Fifth Ideal Theory

[maybunny she/her]

Hi everyone! This is my first theory I'm posting, and first time posting here in general, so apologies if I've formatted this weird or anything. I read all of Stormlight last year, and doing my first reread now. I read them all pretty quickly, so I admit I may have missed things that completely invalidate everything I'm about to say.

I've been thinking about what Kaladin's 5th ideal could be, since I'm really positive we'll see it. I know it's been discussed a lot that it could be something similar to the Skybreaker ideal of 'I am the law', and I do agree that it could be something like that. But I've got my tinfoil hat on and am going to take this a step further. What if the 5th ideal somehow allows the radiant to become a spren of their order? If the bond between human and spren has changed the radiant so much by that point that they are able to cross the bridge between physical and cognitive to become a cognitive being if they wish to. I think I've seen the opposite theorized, where the spren can become physical, but I don't believe I've seen this version before. 

If the skybreaker ideal is to "become" the law, perhaps they can become a highspren? Assuming the other orders have similar 5th ideals, maybe Kaladin's fifth would involve being a living embodiment of honor by becoming an honorspren? 

For me, I have two points where I feel this could be tied in/have been foreshadowed.

1. Ishars experiments. I've seen it theorized that he's trying to give spren a physical form for whatever his reasons are. What if he is studying spren that specifically were once human. Possibly to see how human they still are and if he could return one to a physical being again. 

2. Something that stuck out to me in TSM is when Auxiliary says that he also spoke oaths. Maybe i missed it, but I don't think we've seen other references to the radiant spren swearing oaths. Could Auxiliary possibly have been a skybreaker that became a highspren upon swearing their 5th ideal, who then bonded Sigzil?

 

Flaws I can see with this theory:

What happens to the Nahel bond if both spren and radiant are now both spren? Is it considered broken? Is it somehow considered 'completed' and the now-spren radiant is free to bond a human of their own? 

If a now-spren radiant bonded someone, why wouldn't this have been mentioned? The same mechanism that doesn't allow Syl to tell Kaladin what his oaths will be? Maybe it's one of the things they forget when they cross back over into the physical realm?

The recreance - I know we haven't yet learned all the reasoning for the recreance. I had previously thought that whatever the 5th ideals were had a part to play, and I'm not sure how this would fit into that. 

Bondsmiths. This really falls apart with bondsmiths. I have no clue how they would fit into this.

Would be an easy leap to Syladin for some people. Not hating on people who want that, I just...very much do not lol.

This is a total crackpot theory, so I'm sure there are more flaws than just these, but these seem to be the big ones to me.

 

Feel free to explain exactly how wrong everything here is. As I said, I read the entire cosmere minus mistborn last year pretty quickly, so it's very possible I missed tidbits that completely destroy this theory.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:15 AM, maybunny said:

Hi everyone! This is my first theory I'm posting, and first time posting here in general, so apologies if I've formatted this weird or anything. I read all of Stormlight last year, and doing my first reread now. I read them all pretty quickly, so I admit I may have missed things that completely invalidate everything I'm about to say.

I've been thinking about what Kaladin's 5th ideal could be, since I'm really positive we'll see it. I know it's been discussed a lot that it could be something similar to the Skybreaker ideal of 'I am the law', and I do agree that it could be something like that. But I've got my tinfoil hat on and am going to take this a step further. What if the 5th ideal somehow allows the radiant to become a spren of their order? If the bond between human and spren has changed the radiant so much by that point that they are able to cross the bridge between physical and cognitive to become a cognitive being if they wish to. I think I've seen the opposite theorized, where the spren can become physical, but I don't believe I've seen this version before. 

If the skybreaker ideal is to "become" the law, perhaps they can become a highspren? Assuming the other orders have similar 5th ideals, maybe Kaladin's fifth would involve being a living embodiment of honor by becoming an honorspren? 

For me, I have two points where I feel this could be tied in/have been foreshadowed.

1. Ishars experiments. I've seen it theorized that he's trying to give spren a physical form for whatever his reasons are. What if he is studying spren that specifically were once human. Possibly to see how human they still are and if he could return one to a physical being again. 

2. Something that stuck out to me in TSM is when Auxiliary says that he also spoke oaths. Maybe i missed it, but I don't think we've seen other references to the radiant spren swearing oaths. Could Auxiliary possibly have been a skybreaker that became a highspren upon swearing their 5th ideal, who then bonded Sigzil?

 

Flaws I can see with this theory:

What happens to the Nahel bond if both spren and radiant are now both spren? Is it considered broken? Is it somehow considered 'completed' and the now-spren radiant is free to bond a human of their own? 

If a now-spren radiant bonded someone, why wouldn't this have been mentioned? The same mechanism that doesn't allow Syl to tell Kaladin what his oaths will be? Maybe it's one of the things they forget when they cross back over into the physical realm?

The recreance - I know we haven't yet learned all the reasoning for the recreance. I had previously thought that whatever the 5th ideals were had a part to play, and I'm not sure how this would fit into that. 

Bondsmiths. This really falls apart with bondsmiths. I have no clue how they would fit into this.

Would be an easy leap to Syladin for some people. Not hating on people who want that, I just...very much do not lol.

This is a total crackpot theory, so I'm sure there are more flaws than just these, but these seem to be the big ones to me.

 

Feel free to explain exactly how wrong everything here is. As I said, I read the entire cosmere minus mistborn last year pretty quickly, so it's very possible I missed tidbits that completely destroy this theory.

I like this, it's creative and interesting, although I admit I'm in no way certain how it could/would work in practice...if it helps, and it might not, the "classical" interpretation of the five ideals of what makes an honorable person that I'm familiar with are typically summarized and ordered roughly along the lines of:

1. Integrity: They consistently adhere to moral and ethical principles, even when it's challenging. This builds trust and respect from others.

 

2. Courage: They are willing to stand up for their beliefs and values, even in the face of adversity or potential personal loss.

 

3. Accountability: They take responsibility for their actions and decisions, acknowledging mistakes and learning from them rather than shifting blame.

 

4. Respect for Others: They treat others with dignity, valuing their perspectives and rights, which fosters healthy relationships and a sense of community.

 

5. Commitment to Justice: They advocate for fairness and equity, standing against injustice and supporting those who are marginalized or oppressed.

Thus far, I think this progression matches what kaladin has displayed on page pretty well (though 3 and 4 might be reversed in order). What an ideal of "justice" would mean to a windrunner would very likely be different than that of a skybreaker, so I think you've totally hit where the real philosophical divergence is to be codified there. Perhaps rather than becoming a personification of law, they would instead strive to be a paragon of it and relearning how to coordinate with the other orders? (That is an extremely important principle of military and civil leadership, which I think fits the windrunners major agenda in a sense. Merely a thought this was a nice read.

Edited October 7, 2024 by hwiles

[maybunny she/her]

On 10/7/2024 at 5:13 PM, hwiles said:

I like this, it's creative and interesting, although I admit I'm in no way certain how it could/would work in practice...if it helps, and it might not, the "classical" interpretation of the five ideals of what makes an honorable person that I'm familiar with are typically summarized and ordered roughly along the lines of:

1. Integrity: They consistently adhere to moral and ethical principles, even when it's challenging. This builds trust and respect from others.

 

2. Courage: They are willing to stand up for their beliefs and values, even in the face of adversity or potential personal loss.

 

3. Accountability: They take responsibility for their actions and decisions, acknowledging mistakes and learning from them rather than shifting blame.

 

4. Respect for Others: They treat others with dignity, valuing their perspectives and rights, which fosters healthy relationships and a sense of community.

 

5. Commitment to Justice: They advocate for fairness and equity, standing against injustice and supporting those who are marginalized or oppressed.

Thus far, I think this progression matches what kaladin has displayed on page pretty well (though 3 and 4 might be reversed in order). What an ideal of "justice" would mean to a windrunner would very likely be different than that of a skybreaker, so I think you've totally hit where the real philosophical divergence is to be codified there. Perhaps rather than becoming a personification of law, they would instead strive to be a paragon of it and relearning how to coordinate with the other orders? (That is an extremely important principle of military and civil leadership, which I think fits the windrunners major agenda in a sense. Merely a thought this was a nice read.

Ooh, those are good! They do seem to fit with what we've seen of Kaladin's arc so far, and I feel the final one could mesh well with him as well, with how much he wavers between killing and healing. Thanks for the addition!

I admit that my theory is really loose and I also have no idea how it would work in practice   

[bryconan]

First time poster here as well. I have not read tSM yet but have read a lot of the spoilers.

I really like the thought of the bond changing in some way to allow for the radiant to gain the spren's powers but would add that the spren will likely gain something from the 5th ideal as well. The connection/bond between the two of them has become so strong that they give each other access to their respective realms/powers. For example, Kaladin will be able to draw wind spren and access the surges while Syl will gain more grounding in physical realm and retain her knowledge gained about honor. The spren may also gain full access to the physical realm. 

My big theory is that Brandon will use the ketek format for major character and plot arcs (including the ideals). That combined with the number 10 is so important in this series this lead me to think the fifth ideal is a red herring based on 1+2+3+4=10; four vows are the "completion" of the journey and the last is the acceptance of its end. I also think part of the purpose of the bond is to teach/heal the radiant and that once a radiant has dealt with their personal issue the bond is no longer needed. Ultimately, the radiant and the spren will come to an understanding that they no longer need each other and it is time to start a new journey. Maybe through a connection to each other in the spiritual realm? That way the connection is maintained but could allow for connection to another spren in physical/cognitive.

Just looking at Kaladin for an example. 

1. Life before death, Strength before weakness, journey before destination - At this point the spren is awaiting the radiant to accept the journey. This is Kaladin stepping away from the chasm and choosing bridge 4 

2. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves - Protecting in general 

3. I will protect even those I hate, followed by a personalized message - This is the defining radiant vow IMO. It also points kaladin towards the law since his vow Is that he will protect those he hates, so long as it is right.

4. I accept that there will be those I cannot protect! - accepting that there are times you can't protect

5. Destination before journey, Weakness before strength, death before life. - At this point, the radiant is fully healed and the spren is waiting for the radiant to know they are okay on their own and ready to step away. I think for radiants to swear the fifth they will have to have a new goal or phase in their life. For kaladin, he will step away and become a surgeon. I see him being an Obi-Wan type character in Book 6-10.

The words will be "enjoying the destination is part of the journey or Choosing a destination is the start of new journey, I accept that to become strong at something I must first be weak, accept the death of false beliefs about self before life begins again anew"

Other crackpot theory is there might also be something with vows 1/3/5 being related to shards honour/odium(passion?)/cultivation and vows 2/4 being related to the order of knights. 

 

On the recreance, it could have to do with breaking bonds and that the Radiants/spren both so strongly held to the belief that they were a sword. Both the radiant seeing themselves as a sword since all that the bond has allowed them to do was kill and the spren physically spending so much time as a sword. Once the bond was broken the spren's cognitive form is trapped within the physical world and physical form is stuck in cognitive world.