Early Brandon. It shows.

[Nitpicking]

I'm listening to the audiobook of Dragonsteel Prime. It's clearly even earlier than Way of Kings Prime. There are stylistic things and just plain bad wording that Brandon-today would never use. I mean, "face coated with makeup"? It isn't mockery, this is a character described as beautiful. There are structural problems, or just plain lack of continuity. The first part has Jerick's friends. Then in the next part, he's described as a solitary kid who really didn't have friends. There's a surprising amount of "tell, don't show" once we get to the palace, too.

This isn't mockery of Brandon, not even pre-publication Brandon who wrote this. He was (as he says) aware it wasn't ready for publication. Presumably, that's why he was selling Elantris and Mistborn and not Dragonsteel. It just makes me feel better about my own writing, that Brandon Sanderson's earliest efforts were very much in need of improvement. It's actually a compliment--Brandon worked hard to get as good as he is.

I would also say that even in this not-ready-for-prime-time thing, you can see Brandon's inventiveness shining through. It's weird to me, to read a Sanderson fantasy, get 20% or so through it, and know almost nothing about any magic system. Not bad, but interesting.

Note; it's a 27 hour audiobook. I won't finish it for a bit.

[Nitpicking]

I listened to a few more hours. There are several more times where the story just called makeup "makeup". I think that, if Brandon had chosen to polish this one instead of Elantris, he'd have talked to someone who knew about makeup and used more description. Is she wearing blush? Mascara? Lipstick/lip gloss? White powder to make her look pale? To the best of my memory, the word is only ever applied to one character, too, which to me feels odd, as if in the Stormlight Archive, only Adolin's clothing ever got described. In the threadstarter, I mentioned how odd I found the use of "coat" referring to makeup. Later someone "paints" makeup onto a woman's face. (The idea of men wearing makeup seems never to have occurred to anyone on Yolen.)

There's a court intrigue plot that uses a huge part of the plot (remember that I'm not halfway through yet), but Brandon is also trying to set up the fainlife plot. At this point, he wasn't as good at connecting the various plots in a long story. (Again, he knew this and taught himself to do it much better.)

"Tell don't show" continues, with very "early writer" stuff happening. Too many chapters start with characters thinking about the backstory to familiarize the reader.

It isn't terrible, but it's clearly not the work of an experienced pro, which is hardly a surprise.

[Nitpicking]

Chapter 20 starts with two separate viewpoint characters thinking about backstory for about four pages.No kidding, they just think exposition at the reader. Wow, the current Brandon would not do that.

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Chapter 20 starts with two separate viewpoint characters thinking about backstory for about four pages.No kidding, they just think exposition at the reader. Wow, the current Brandon would not do that.

Concur. 

Are you at least enjoying the glimpse of "what might have been?"

Please let us know when you start encountering extracts that were better used elsewere.

[Nitpicking]

... and now Frost is thinking about backstory. We're in his head, but somehow he manages not to think about the things Brandon would rather we didn't know.

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Concur. 

Are you at least enjoying the glimpse of "what might have been?"

Please let us know when you start encountering extracts that were better used elsewere.

It's interesting, for sure. It isn't as entertaining as modern Brandon, but it's interesting to someone who is curious about writing and the development of both writers and their works.

There's a scene

Spoiler

There's a scene where Topaz, the proto-Hoid, animates a bunch of plants in a terrifying manner that reminds me of how Cultivation prunes Dalinar. If he was on Roshar they'd say he has the Surge of Regrowth. Not identical, but recognizable as an ancestor of scenes in the Stormlight Archive.

 

[Nitpicking]

I listened to a little during lunch. Jerick refers to Martis as "very anal" about something in Chapter 21. I know Yolen is advanced and all, but Freudian psychoanalysis?

Martis also manages to shout three sentences while a sword is in mid-swing.

And finally, the amnesia plot device is detracting from the story, in my arrogant opinion.

[Nitpicking]

Chapter 23 starts with over two pages of Jerick remembering stuff, in a remarkably unexciting way. I have to think this is a first draft. Even very young Brandon wouldn't have left this stuff in, as-is, in a second.

Spoilers.

Spoiler

An assassin attacks Jerick's patron, the king. Jerick runs out, blocks the assassin, and keeps it away from him, twice. Finally, he drops his sword and another person, his rival, kills the assassin. Somehow, everyone considers Jerick a worthless coward, ignoring the fact that he saved the king's life? That if not for his intervention, the guy would be dead?

 

[Nitpicking]

On 10/1/2024 at 8:51 AM, Treamayne said:

Please let us know when you start encountering extracts that were better used elsewere.

Well, Ryala could be a proto-Shallan. She Lightweaves (although that word hadn't been coined yet, I think) and is totally unaware that she's doing it.

Frost (who actually still has the same name, unlike Topaz) is bound by an oath of some sort. It isn't clear that it's the oath of non-intervention from Stormlight, but it could be. It prevents him from helping the protagonist.

Topaz, like Hoid, is utterly unable to harm anyone, so that carried over into the Cosmere. I doubt it's for the same reason.

I stalled out just before the halfway point. I'll listen to a few hours of podcasts and then try to get back into it.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Well, Ryala could be a proto-Shallan. She Lightweaves (although that word hadn't been coined yet, I think) and is totally unaware that she's doing it.

Frost (who actually still has the same name, unlike Topaz) is bound by an oath of some sort. It isn't clear that it's the oath of non-intervention from Stormlight, but it could be. It prevents him from helping the protagonist.

Topaz, like Hoid, is utterly unable to harm anyone, so that carried over into the Cosmere. I doubt it's for the same reason.

I stalled out just before the halfway point. I'll listen to a few hours of podcasts and then try to get back into it.

Yeah, it took me a bit to dig through as well - glad I read it once, but I doubt I'll read it again (ditto TWoK Prime - as opposed to both AoN and WS Prose - both of which I have read more than once). 

Specifically (without spoilers): Specific scenes that can be equated to scenes in a published work (even if most/many details are different)

More specifically (slight spoilers):

Spoiler

Shattered Plains, Gaz, Bridge Crews, and the Dragonsteel version of the "Tower rescue," etc.

 

[Nitpicking]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

 

More specifically (slight spoilers):

  Hide contents

Shattered Plains, Gaz, Bridge Crews, and the Dragonsteel version of the "Tower rescue," etc.

I didn't get to those yet, I'm still less than half through.

 

[Nitpicking]

You can tell I'm posting here sort of stream-of-consciousness?

If I were inexplicably Brandon Sanderson, I would use this (or chapters from it) in a seminar on how to write fiction. Get the students to do what I'm doing, read through it and explain what they see as flaws in the text, say tell-don't-show. Then I'd have them rewrite a couple of pages, trying to keep early Brandon's style but fix the specific problem they perceive.

Then, they'd apply what they learned to their own work.

My reasoning is, this isn't atrocious or unfixable, but it is very flawed. IMO, that makes it perfect to practice that sort of editing on.

(There are fundamental problems that can't be fixed with such simple revisions, again in my opinion. Jerick is not a great protagonist, for one thing. Brandon is on record that Jerick is unlikely to be around in the eventual published version.)

[Nitpicking]

I got to the Bridge Four/Shattered Plains stuff. You can definitely see the bones of a good story there, but Baby Brandon didn't execute it as well as the WoK version (unsurprisingly). That said, he's getting better as I listen to the audiobook, which I interpret as him actually learning to write better as he wrote.

I'm intrigued by Ryala and Toren getting together. It isn't especially plausible, but I thought Torell was written off. Maybe he gets a redemption arc?

[Nitpicking]

Jerick looks like a sort of proto-Kaladin in the Shattered Plains. He is a natural leader, even of men older than himself, he inexplicably gets healthier in the climate of grueling abuse and semi-starvation. He comes from an even lower social standing than Kaladin, and rose even higher even faster before his crash. Of course, this early effort isn't as good--Jerick's rise isn't really believable, for one thing.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Jerick looks like a sort of proto-Kaladin in the Shattered Plains. He is a natural leader, even of men older than himself, he inexplicably gets healthier in the climate of grueling abuse and semi-starvation. He comes from an even lower social standing than Kaladin, and rose even higher even faster before his crash. Of course, this early effort isn't as good--Jerick's rise isn't really believable, for one thing.

I don't know if you have also read TWoK Prime or not, but if you have, I mentioned in this thread (spoilers until you are done) that it seemd the characters we know are hybrids of two different Prime characters:

Spoiler

• Jerrick + Merin = Kaladin
• Ryalla + Shinri = Shallan

Which kinda goes with what you are saying here. Thank you for the observations.

[Nitpicking]

On 10/13/2024 at 8:36 PM, Treamayne said:

I don't know if you have also read TWoK Prime or not, but if you have, I mentioned in this thread (spoilers until you are done) that it seemd the characters we know are hybrids of two different Prime characters:

Yes, I read WOK Prime, and I think you're right.

The last couple hours of audiobook have mostly been the V1 Shattered Plains. I mostly noticed some very incongruous word choices. Bat'Chor encounters the word "museum", which is a reference to Classical Greek beliefs about the Muses, and calls something "infernal", a reference to the Christian Hell.

I think Publishable Brandon would have avoided using those words.

Over in Ryalla's storyline, she finally just stops having her denial character trait. "OK, now I embrace my light-control powers, and remember what happened in the feasting hall." You know, where she hears the kidnapping of Yoharn planned, but neither she nor Jerick ever thinks to warn the King, who they both like? (Yeah, that bugged me.)

The false hope thing where Topaz is literally a few feet from Yoharn and is about to open the door, then gets scared away, wasn't as dramatic as Baby Brandon wanted, at least for me.

Edited October 20, 2024 by Nitpicking

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I think Publishable Brandon would have avoided using those words.

Over in Ryalla's storyline, she finally just stops having her denial character trait. "OK, now I embrace my light-control powers, and remember what happened in the feasting hall. You know where she hears the kidnapping of Yoharn planned, but neither she nor Jerick ever thinks to warn the King, who they both like. (Yeah, that bugged me.)

The false hope thing where Topaz is literally a few feet from Yoharn and is about to open the door, then gets scared away, wasn't as dramatic as Baby Brandon wanted, at least for me.

Agree on all points.

3 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

The last couple hours of audiobook have mostly been the V1 Shattered Plains.

I do kinda like Tzai Blows here, in that it feels like a very "nearly anybody can learn this if they spend the time and effort" magic, which I wish Sanderson had more of in the Cosmere. Sure, it still has some "issues" but it still makes me hope they come back on Canon Dragonsteel in a few decades when we get that far.

[Nitpicking]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I do kinda like Tzai Blows here, in that it feels like a very "nearly anybody can learn this if they spend the time and effort" magic, which I wish Sanderson had more of in the Cosmere. Sure, it still has some "issues" but it still makes me hope they come back on Canon Dragonsteel in a few decades when we get that far.

Anyone can learn it, but Chosen One Protagonist Marty StuJerick is an order of magnitude better than anyone else.

Topaz isn't as sharp as Cosmere Hoid. The god he meets accidentally refers to the summoned goddess in the next room (that's a weird phrase) as his sister, but then claims to be her father, in the same brief conversation. Topaz misses it.

Does the terrible amnesia plot in this book foreshadow the many amnesia plots of the Stormlight Archive (Shallan, Dalinar, Hoid, probably the Heralds [and certainly Taln in TWOK Prime])? For that matter, Hoid has amnesia again in Tress. And Yumi has it in her eponymous book. And didn't a Kandra lose part of its memory when it lost its spikes in Era 2 of Mistborn? Brandon seemingly has a thing for writing amnesia.

I was just reminded today that I'll probably never see Dragonsteel the actual book. It's slated to follow the complete Stormlight Archive. That's minimum 20 years in the future. I'm 62.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Does the terrible amnesia plot in this book foreshadow the many amnesia plots of the Stormlight Archive (Shallan, Dalinar, Hoid, probably the Heralds [and certainly Taln in TWOK Prime])? For that matter, Hoid has amnesia again in Tress. And Yumi has it in her eponymous book. And didn't a Kandra lose part of its memory when it lost its spikes in Era 2 of Mistborn? Brandon seemingly has a thing for writing amnesia.

Don't forget non-Cosmere Frugal Wizard, etc.

7 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I was just reminded today that I'll probably never see Dragonsteel the actual book. It's slated to follow the complete Stormlight Archive. That's minimum 20 years in the future. I'm 62.

It's a worry I share - I'm 50. 

[Nitpicking]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget non-Cosmere Frugal Wizard, etc.

I have tried three times. I can't get past about chapter 8 of that book. It's the exact form of humor I personally find the least funny. You're right, though, it's another example of the amnesia plot.

 

Hey, Shardcasters! If you ever have a chance to ask Brandon quiz questions again, maybe ask him what Dalinar, Shallan, Hoid, Tress, Yumi, and that guy from FW have in common with that Kandra? See if he knows how often he has gone to the Well of Amnesia.

Your followup question could add Jerick.

Edited October 20, 2024 by Nitpicking

[Treamayne]

44 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I have tried three times. I can't get past about chapter 8 of that book

Here. Here. This was the intro to my "full book reaction" for SP2:

Spoiler

Two stars. Not as annoying as Alcatraz, much better than Princess Bride* (novel); not as good as other MG/YA Sanderson works.

  I can see why others enjoyed this more than I do. I like the implications and the concept. Not a fan of the humor (I get that the guide is meant to be a poorly disguised marketing ploy, but it's so farcical that I have trouble believing it would ever actually sell their services). But, since I also am not a fan of HGttG or the AvEL - it wasn't a surprise. At least it is still a semi coherent story with the asides and guidebook excerpts removed.

 

[Nitpicking]

OK, the sequence where Bat'Chor is in the fancy solitary confinement. Why does the angry officer wait three months before suddenly bursting in to explain the backstory and almost kill the prisoner? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to give his angry rant and almost kill Bat'Chor before locking him up? Did he really stay in a state of perpetual, almost-uncontrollable rage for months, somehow?

I haven't read any further yet. Was he the victim's lover or something? Why is he so angry over this particular murder? I'm not being heartless, I'm saying that this person is the closest thing to law enforcement in that setting, why is this one murder so important to him?

[Treamayne]

29 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I haven't read any further yet. Was he the victim's lover or something? Why is he so angry over this particular murder? I'm not being heartless, I'm saying that this person is the closest thing to law enforcement in that setting, why is this one murder so important to him?

I only took it to mean that they did not know the wife was dead and had been looking for her while Bat’Chor was locked up. Then they found the body and, whatever was done to her was the cause of his reaction (mixed with a healthy dose of racism). 

[Nitpicking]

I don't know ... finding her body after three months, how would they identify it, let alone know the cause of death, in this setting? And still, why was this guy so personally angry at Bat'Chor? Again, he has to see lots of death, he's in a nation that's part of the thing known as the "Eternal War".

[Treamayne]

33 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I don't know ... finding her body after three months, how would they identify it, let alone know the cause of death, in this setting? And still, why was this guy so personally angry at Bat'Chor? Again, he has to see lots of death, he's in a nation that's part of the thing known as the "Eternal War".

I did not say it made sense, just that it was my interpretation of the scene.  Which then implies, of course, that if the body was identifiable then Bat'Chor was locked up whenever she was killed. 

[Nitpicking]

A couple of minor things. Ryalla thinks of abuse-victim Courteth as having "gray dun" hair. But dun already means "gray brown", so ... ?

When Topaz is leaving after the collapse of the Horwatcher headquarters, does his chariot suddenly materialize? I am listening to the audiobook, it's possible that I just tuned out, but my memory has him return to the ruins after the building is destroyed, and then ride off in a chariot.