Hemalurgy's Flexibility

[Trusk'our he/him]

Hemalurgy's a bit different than Allomancy or Feruchemy. It's way more complex, especially considering that there are between two and three hundred Bindpoints in the human Spiritweb. 

It feels like Hemalurgy works on a more fundamental level than Allomancy or Feruchemy, being able to target more specific things and make subtler tweaks to an organism.

As such, I've wondered, just how much can you tweak it? How much can you change a spike's fundamental focus?

There is a WoB on this topic, talking about the differences between Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitor spikes, and how they can be used interchangeably without too much difficulty.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9570

yulerule

Are Inquisitor spikes, kandra Blessings and koloss spikes interchangeable?  Like if you it spiked in a different way--

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* You could make that work and it wouldn't be that hard. But just as they are, no.

yulerule

Would nothing happen or would weird stuff happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Weird stuff would happen

*pause*

But that one's not very hard to make work.

Further, we know that Trellium, which steals Metalborn powers (as seen in Bleeder and Set minions), can also create Hemalurgic Chimera, something previously thought to only be possible with attributes. 

Kandra Blessings can be made with power metals, such as with ReLuur's pewter Blessing or Bleeder's specially crafted Trellium spikes (which I do still think count as a Blessing, as Bleeder wouldn't have enough intelligence to function otherwise).

It seems in the WoB that Brandon is mostly referring to what is taken from the Spiritweb instead of just Bindpoint placement, but I do wonder, what if you knew what you were doing with spikes and had some Pathian earrings? Could you make a functional construct from the old Inquisitor spikes?

Or, based on what the Set were doing with non-Metalborn Investiture harvesting- creating instable but functional powers briefly- could attributes be used augment or create power spikes? Maybe, say, nicrosil being used with the correct Bindpoint to boost a Pewterarm's or Coinshot's natural Allomancy?

Thoughts?

[Pianoboy]

Specifically for inquisitor spikes, assuming they had not been completely hemalurgically decayed, probably couldn't create a proper hemalurgic construct, as they only had spikes with allomantic/feruchemical powers. The koloss definitely use strength spikes (iron) and the blessings are either copper, tin, zinc, or iron depending on which blessing it is (Cognitive function for copper/presence, zinc for emotional fortitude/stability, tin for senses/awareness). I don't think a hema construct can exist as we know them without one of these boosts. Also, trellium more than likely works more or less like atium and can steal physical/mental attributes as well as metalborn abilities.

I think nicrosil only gives you their abilities temporarily because it only gives investiture, meaning perhaps they burn that investiture keyed to those powers(?) I mostly say that because we now that tapping a nicrosilmind can give you non-metalborn powers like the Surges, given you are tapping that reserve. I don't think nicrosil would enhance existing powers, that would require a different spike. I feel like the metal types that steal allomantic/feruchemical attributes could possibly extend to stealing other magic systems, given the right circumstances. We know it can steal literally everything in the cosmere, just not specifically how of course.

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

First, I very much hope that the true and full capabilities of hemalurgy are never documented on page. Mastering the intricate rules very seriously and specifically requires nazi death camp levels of human experimentation and trial and error...it's sick and twisted beyond all possible extremes...

That said, yeah, I have little doubt that ramming an Inquisitor spike into just the right bind point that it was never "intended" to be compatible with on a metaphysical level could produce some novel horrifying results that are technically stable enough to stay "alive." What on God's green earth such a monster could/would want or be capable of is anyone's guess though until it is done successfully at least once. And again, every incorrect arbitrary guess will represent at least one, and probably several, gruesome and torturous murders while every success shall represent the creation of a monster which is just as likely to wish death on its creator as obey or serve any purpose which is assigned to it post-hoc.

The problem here is that, in order to "know" what one is doing with hemalurgy, they have to already be a monster and have created monsters themselves...

[Trusk'our he/him]

Welcome to the Shard @Pianoboy!

There's a forum here where you can introduce yourself and where we can get to know you a little better 

1 hour ago, Pianoboy said:

Also, trellium more than likely works more or less like atium and can steal physical/mental attributes as well as metalborn abilities.

I don't believe that taking human attributes is within Atium's focus. Based on the Hemalurgy table, it seems more like a wildcard for Invested powers, while Lerasium takes all human attributes. 

I believe that Trellium is similar to Atium in function, as we've seen it grant powers, but we've also seen it warp individuals into monstrosities as well.

This is why I propose either that Hemalurgic metals are more versatile in what they can take from the Spiritweb, or that perhaps the Bindpoint from an Inquisitor spike can make a monstrosity. Possibly both, though again, these are just ideas and not confirmed. 

1 hour ago, Pianoboy said:

I think nicrosil only gives you their abilities temporarily because it only gives investiture, meaning perhaps they burn that investiture keyed to those powers(?) I mostly say that because we now that tapping a nicrosilmind can give you non-metalborn powers like the Surges, given you are tapping that reserve. I don't think nicrosil would enhance existing powers, that would require a different spike.

That's certainly a possibility. We don't really know how nicrosil Hemalurgy works right now, only that it targets more general Investiture and not specific powers.

Minor Cosmere references:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14896

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

Quote

I feel like the metal types that steal allomantic/feruchemical attributes could possibly extend to stealing other magic systems, given the right circumstances. We know it can steal literally everything in the cosmere, just not specifically how of course.

Agreed.

Since these powers are Investiture manifesting on certain points in the Spiritweb, taking the Spiritweb fragments containing powers from other systems is totally possible, though where those Bindpoints are specifically isn't currently known. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1190

Odium's_Shard

Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (Hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

50 minutes ago, hwiles said:

First, I very much hope that the true and full capabilities of hemalurgy are never documented on page. Mastering the intricate rules very seriously and specifically requires nazi death camp levels of human experimentation and trial and error...it's sick and twisted beyond all possible extremes...

The problem here is that, in order to "know" what one is doing with hemalurgy, they have to already be a monster and have created monsters themselves...

Not necessarily. 

Rashek was able to figure it out within a few minutes of holding the WoA power.

Not repeatable, true, but it lays a foundation for alternative methods of accessing the information. Basically, anything that allows you to see into the SR can help you figure out Bindpoint placement (extra Investiture from spikes, Connection boosting to Ruin via F-duralumin maybe, A-electrum, A-gold probably if looking at alternative possibilities for yourself, F-chromium, Perpendicularity bathing, Atium, or Sazed whispering it in your ear if he really wanted. Or, maybe Discord. . .).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/48-nooktalks-twitter-qa-with-barnes-noble/#e545

PhantoMonstrosity

Atium is the best metal to use for Hemalurgy. Does *burning* atium help you figure out where to put the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that gets you a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm could help with placing spikes.

<snip>

Though, I will say I don't think Hemalurgy will ever be a "good" Investiture or be used completely responsibly- it's simply set up in such a way to give those with little morality a major edge in its use.

Still interesting to think about though.