spoiler Does telling the future involve fortune or destiny

[Shadow of Electrum he/him]

[SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN ERA 2 ARCANUM AND STORMLIGHT 3 SO WATCH OUT FOR THAT]

 

So the question I have is rather simple. I was thinking about how seeing the future works and I realized that both destiny and fortune seem to be involved and I'm not sure which one is correct. The main conflict comes from two specific quotes. In the Mistborn era 2 arcanum khriss says that a chromium spike "might steal destiny". Now this isn't a lot to go off of but this phrasing leads me to believe that destiny is some sort of measurable quantity like connection and identity. If this is true then it also leads me to believe destiny plays a role in telling the future. However, Odium implies that telling the future would be difficult without fortune, which makes sense in its own way. So with all this the question remains, does telling the future involve destiny, fortune, or a mix of both? I've seen more people mention fortune when talking about telling the future which makes sense considering what Odium said, but it feels bit flimsy to say that the shards are just relying on a lot of fortune to see future possibilities and I think having a separate function for it is more sound as a concept, but also more interesting.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Shadow of Electrum said:

So the question I have is rather simple. I was thinking about how seeing the future works and I realized that both destiny and fortune seem to be involved and I'm not sure which one is correct.

FIrstly, we don't even know what Destiny is and if there is such a thing as Destiny in Cosmere. Fortune on the other hand is a way of knowing things you have no other way of knowing - generally knowing about the future (or past). It usually is like a gut feeling you have, which tells you to do something, but doesn't tell you why. We still know very little about Fortune. Fortune is generally involved in the future sight, it allows you to peer into the Spiritual Realm, which shows you future possibilities.

Spoiler

Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Hoid seems to know things that are not explained. He'll show up places, when the Herald showed up, or when Jasnah comes back. Is that something that's just not been explained yet? Or is that something that's a part of some magic system that we've heard about? Or is that something different?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, so, he has access to things that other people do not. It is explainable, but it has not been explained yet. He can be places he needs to be, but if you watch, he doesn't always know why he needs to be there. He's really good at covering that part up. But he does-- he knows he needs to be somewhere, and so he gets there.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

alercah

Do regular people in the cosmere have an innate, subconscious ability to read the Spiritual Realm just a little bit, that might manifest as gut instinct or intuition?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in the cosmere, there is some validity to "gut" instincts in some people with a closer connection to the Spiritual.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 28, 2021)

 

Looking into the future involves peering into the Spiritual Realm, Fortune is one of the ways of doing this, but you can do it without Fortune - Taravangian was able to predict the future without drawing more Fortune for example. Atium or electrum work by using Fortune. So generally Fortune is needed for a future sight, but we have no idea how Destiny plays into it. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is looking into the Spiritual Realm the only way to look into the future?

Brandon Sanderson

Any looking into the future involves looking at Spiritwebs, probability, and stuff like that. So, yes.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that line is mostly just me saying... *long pause* I think you're picking apart those things too much.

Chaos

Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know-- Gotta take that seriously, so.

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as-- Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text.

Chaos

That there are those are two different things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

2 hours ago, Shadow of Electrum said:

In the Mistborn era 2 arcanum khriss says that a chromium spike "might steal destiny".

I think "might" is the key word here - they don't know what a chromium spike does, they only suspect. Keep in mind, Ars Arcanum is an in-world text, filtered through the understanding of those who wrote it. In BoM Kandra said that Spiritual Feruchemical attributes are still poorly understood in general. This would be even more of a problem for Hemalurgic spikes of this quadrant - nobody since Spook wrote his book experimented with spikes (except for Set, which doesn't share what they know). In the end we just don't know what Destiny is and what a chromium spike does. BoM ch 3:

Quote

He paused, and circled his pointer around a group of metals and abilities at the bottom: Fortune, Investiture, Identity, and Connection. Wax leaned forward. They’d spoken of these during his year living in the Village, but only as part of the catechisms of Feruchemy and Terris belief. None of those specified what the powers actually did. They were considered beyond understanding, like God, or time.
“Chromium,” VenDell said, “nicrosil, aluminum, duralumin. These aren’t metals that most ancients knew. Only in recent times have modern metallurgical processes allowed them to become commonplace.”
[...]
Wax stepped forward along the cone of light emanating from the machine. “So what do they do?”
“Research is ongoing,” VenDell said. “Ferrings with these abilities are very, very rare—and it is only in the last few decades that we’ve had access to enough of these metals to begin experimenting. Rebuilding society has been a … wearisome process.”

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

[...]

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

Along the lines of chromium, according to the new Hemalurgy table, they "might steal destiny." Is destiny Fortune, or is it something new?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

RoW spoilers:

Spoiler

I perceive Destiny as separate from Fortune and future sight. It's sort of "you are meant to be someone in the future" - just like Dalinar was meant to be Odium's champion and even Cultivation said it, but later he was meant to be a champion fighting against Odium. In the same way Vin was destined to Ascend to Preservation as she was chosen by Mists and the power itself. This is how I view Destiny - and this is something that can be stolen, as Ishar showed us. Future sight can reveal that Destiny, but you don't use Destiny to see the future. 

OB ch 114:

Quote

She stepped back to him. IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS. YET, ALL THINGS MUST BE CULTIVATED. WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST.
IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS. YOU WERE ALWAYS BOUND TO COME TO ME. I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.

RoW ch 111:

Quote

"I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.”

RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Our Connection grows, Dalinar,” Odium said. “Stronger by the day. I can reach you now as if you were one of my own. You should be.”
[...]
“You were supposed to be my champion, Dalinar,” Odium said

 

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

It's possible that seeing the future can be actualized through multiple distinct methods. The most straight forward, in my opinion, is turbocharging a spiritually-grounded power and bursting ones soul through to through to the spiritual realm. Elend does this with duralumin and atium, but it's just as easy (and waaaaaay cheaper) to do with two people working together using electrum and nicrosil allomancy. It's worth noting that it hasn't been confirmed that this method is "safe;" it's entirely possible that it could be permanently mind-altering and traumatizing since, if you'll recall, Elend,  with his magically ultra-enhanced godlike perspective, immediately embraces death.

On the flipside, extreme intelligence has been demonstrated to be enough to see the future on its own; is it possible to be intelligent enough to plot out, see, and control the future without magic? Maybe, maybe not, we don't have good examples on that front so far.

One thing that honestly should work fine and be the easiest method in my opinion (we just haven't ever seen it happen on page) is asking a Shard to show or tell one the future. It would be an extreme act of favoritism for them to divulge such information to anyone who wasn't their champion, but none of the rules revealed thus far appear to prohibit them from doing it if they like you for some reason. This would require faith and trust, as shards are capable of lying when not bound by Contest, but it's less dangerous than risking blowing up your soul.