Dunkelheit Posted August 5, 2024 Posted August 5, 2024 I believe there are three primary magic systems in the Rosharan System. My theory stems from this little tidbit in the Ars Arcanum of The Way of Kings (emphasis mine): Quote I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different. And then there are a couple important WoBs: Quote Dunkelheit Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum that her research suggests another set of abilities more esoteric than the [Voidbindings]. You have said before that the only magic we haven't really seen is Voidbinding, but you have also said that no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses). Is this other set of esoteric abilities Cultivation's magic, and is it called Lifebinding? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! What a great question! What an excellent question. Remember that when I originally conceived The Stormlight Archive, I was thinking of thirty magic systems. And I decided that that was instead three groups of ten, and I wasn't going to call it thirty magic systems. And indeed, that's even vague, because are fabrials their own magic system? What is going on? But anyway, who knows. RAFO! Lifebinding WoB Quote GrandAdmiralThrawn10 As a Truthwatcher I am curious, are we going to learn the standard ideals that Stump would give, or will we just learn the ones that Renarin and Rlain speak, since they are bonded to Enlightened spren? Need to know what my ideals are. Brandon Sanderson You will learn those both. You will learn the differences between them. I'm kind of being dodgy until I get to Renarin's book for some of this stuff, but my goal will be to give you both sets of ideals. Enlightened Ideals WoB Additionally, some more relevant info (Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers): Spoiler We know from Scadrial that the two Shards of Adonalsium in residence, Preservation and Ruin, give rise to three magic systems. One deriving wholly from Preservation (Allomancy), one from Ruin (Hemalurgy), and one that arises from the mixing of the two (Feruchemy). I believe that something analogous is happening on Roshar. Various combinations of Shards give rise to different systems of magic. I believe there are essentially 30 surgelike abilities, and the three "couplings" of Shards give rise to Surgebinding, Lifebinding, and Voidbinding, each of which has 10 unique "surges". However, I believe the combination of all three Shards also creates a magic system: Enlightened Surgebinding. With three Shards in residence on Roshar, there are seven total combinations possible: Honor = ?? Cultivation = ?? Odium = ?? Honor + Cultivation = Surgebinding = Knights Radiant Honor + Odium = Voidbinding Cultivation + Odium = Lifebinding Honor + Cultivation + Odium = Enlightened Surgebinding We know that the Knights Radiant comprise 10 orders and are of Honor and Cultivation, and that the 10 varieties of sapient spren form a Nahel bond with a human to grant them two surges. When Sja-anat corrupts/enlightens Radiant spren, those enlightened spren now bear Connections to all three Rosharan Shards. I believe that Enlightened Surgebinders like Renarin actually have access to three abilities. In Renarin's case, he has Progression, future sight, and an ability that seems to show people What Could Have Been™ (see chapter 8 of Rhythm of War). Side note (Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers): Spoiler What Could Have Been™ seems suspiciously similar to a Mistborn burning Gold. I believe that there are more sapient spren out there. We know that sapient Voidspren exist, and I suspect that they can form a Nahel bond with a human to grant them different surgelike abilities. But the question is, would it be Voidbinding or Lifebinding? Are Voidspren entirely of Odium, or are they a combination of Odium and another Shard? And where is the third group of 10 sapient spren hiding? It is very interesting that the ideals of the Truthwatchers differ from the ideals of Enlightened Truthwatchers. I think it is evidence that supports my theory. Unanswered Questions: Where do abilities deriving from a single Shard play into this? Why can the Fused use the surges from H+C, and why is Adhesion the only exception? Do Voidblades and Lifeblades exist? Why are the Bondsmith and Truthwatcher glyphs on the Voidbinding chart encased in a gem separated from the others, unconnected to any surge glyphs? What in Roshar is Cultivation up to, and where are her sapient C+O spren? Where in Roshar is all the Lifelight hidden? Is the Lifebrother a splinter of Cultivation and does bonding him make you the Lifebinding "Bondsmith"? If Odium wins the contest of champions, will the back five books of Stormlight be called The Voidlight Archive? 5
Treamayne Posted August 5, 2024 Posted August 5, 2024 (edited) Wlecome to the Shard. Please consider sharing which books you have or have not yet read (whichever list is shorter) in an Intro Post or your profile. Also, consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for tips and trick you may not yet know - since each "forum" is slightly different. 50 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said: I believe there are three primary magic systems in the Rosharan System. You are not the only one. Please see: Venn Diagram of Rosharan Magic Unmagics of Roshar Rosharan Magics based on Lights 50 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said: Additionally, some more relevant info (Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers): Hide contents We know from Scadrial that the two Shards of Adonalsium in residence, Preservation and Ruin, give rise to three magic systems. One deriving wholly from Preservation (Allomancy), one from Ruin (Hemalurgy), and one that arises from the mixing of the two (Feruchemy). I believe that something analogous is happening on Roshar. Keep in mind that some WoBs imply that the mathematical progression (1 Shard = 1 magic, 2 Shards = 3 Magics, 3 Shards = 7 Magics) is more a philosophical question than a Realmatic Constant (Mistborn, Elantris Spoilers): Spoiler Quote Questioner I notice how in the different worlds you have different sets of powers. Elantris has two gods in it, two Shards, and there are four powers that we've seen, and we've seen three powers on Scadrial. Do you have kind of a formula or general rule for how many magic systems there are in a place? Brandon Sanderson No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs. Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016) Quote Questioner So, filter that the Shard's power-- Investiture, I guess? Is it that-- So on Roshar, does it count as three Shards stacked on top of each other, next to each other, that's forming different magic systems. Brandon Sanderson It definitely is influencing it. But, not-- perhaps not as much as you might think. I mean, it is, though. Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017) Spoiler Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Quote Crspu Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not? So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) There are too many factors involved for a simple corrrelation - your theory may be accurate - but it may be more or less complex as well. Interesting theory, just some things I thought you may want to consider if they apply here. Edited August 5, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG/Ref 1
Dunkelheit Posted August 5, 2024 Author Posted August 5, 2024 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Wlecome to the Shard. Please consider sharing which books you have or have not yet read (whichever list is shorter) in an Intro Post or your profile. Also, consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for tips and trick you may not yet know - since each "forum" is slightly different. You are not the only one. Please see: Venn Diagram of Rosharan Magic Unmagics of Roshar Rosharan Magics based on Lights Keep in mind that some WoBs imply that the mathematical progression (1 Shard = 1 magic, 2 Shards = 3 Magics, 3 Shards = 7 Magics) is more a philosophical question than a Realmatic Constant (Mistborn, Elantris Spoilers): Reveal hidden contents Reveal hidden contents Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) There are too many factors involved for a simple corrrelation - your theory may be accurate - but it may be more or less complex as well. Interesting theory, just some things I thought you may want to consider if they apply here. Thanks for the warm welcome! Lots of good stuff here! I have not seen a lot of it. Thank you for pointing me to it. Lots of reading to do to get caught up on the topic before responding in detail... I updated my profile with what I've read. Basically I've read all Cosmere canon except minor stuff like Hope of Elantris/Eleventh Metal. I'm not worried about spoilers from those though. 1
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