Multi-powered Complications

[Trusk'our he/him]

I think I made a few connections this morning (the neural kind, not spiritual ) about the nature of Invested powers, Metalminds, and Hemalurgic spikes. 

I was reading an answer in the Q&A section regarding how a Surgebinder's power would be stored in a Nicrosilmind when I realized that when a Feruchemist is capable of storing multiple different things (such as a Windwhisperer or Consumer Ferring) they must use a separate Metalmind.

Before, I (for some reason) assumed that this was just an optional thing, but now I don't think so. It's certainly not worded that way in the Ars. Arcanum, for one.

We learned in RoW that Investiture picks up a rhythm, echoing it. I believe that this is the "language" of Investiture, which determines how it will act.

I think that when two or more kinds of Investiture are stored in the same object, their rhythms will begin to interfere with one another, like the ripples in a pond (I would also like to argue that this isn't required by Archivist Ferrings because while each memory is unique, it's general rhythm is the same, just as different nutrients stored by a Consumer Ferring don't seem to require a separate Metalmind for each kind of food you eat).

However, there are examples of multiple powers existing in people (Mistborn, Full Feruchemists, Twinborn, Radiants, etc.) and objects (Malwish medallions and the Bands of Mourning).

So, clearly this means that you can get multiple powers inside an Unsealed Metalmind and probably by extention a Hemalurgic spike, but there's an extra step needed, and it's not just Identity contamination. 

In fact, because of this, I'm not sure anymore that you could naturally make a Metalmind with all 32 Metalborn powers as a Fullborn without some leg work; even if they share the same Identity, the rhythms of the various powers will interfere with each other too much (this could also help explain why Steel Inquisitors couldn't make Hemalurgic spikes with multiple powers despite having access to Mistborn and Full Feruchemists @Duxredux). 

We do know that Feruchemical duralumin is utilized in some fashion to create the Unsealed Metalminds used by the Southern Scadriens, so I think that this may be part of the puzzle; some kind of hardwired Connection that binds the powers together in a more congruent manner (perhaps different powers have slightly different Identities even, keeping their rhythms separated, but the Connection keeps them linked up. But that's just a theory, of course).

Perhaps this can even help explain why Hemalurgic spikes don't usually generate Resonances; the spikes don't have the proper Connection to each other or the Hemalurgist, so they don't resonate properly with each other either. 

Thoughts?

[Duxredux he/him]

Hmmm... Interesting. I'm not thinking of a way to validate or disprove this at this stage, since tones are still a fairly new discovery and we haven't gotten much detail. It's definitely worth thinking about how rhythms affect people internally, as we clearly know they do with Navani's reaction to Anti-Stormlight tones before she was a Radiant.

I was trying to address those same questions from a different angle and came up with something that seems equally hard to prove or disprove.  My direction comes from Hemalurgy and Spiritwebs and pretty much hinges on Brandon saying that Hemalurgy was based off of acupuncture and meridians. The first idea was that the heart corresponds to a portion of the Spiritweb that coordinates/directs/controls Invested arts (not sure of a better term here, but those words will give you the gist). This... Spiritweb organ(?) is one of the main pieces being stolen by conventional Hemalurgy and it is usually necessary to steal it because it enables the recipient to consistently utilize the power. I got the idea for the heart connecting to a coordinating Spiritweb component from how Inquisitors have a linchpin to coordinate powers at higher numbers - perhaps there was a natural component that did the same function? This attached piece of soul might also explain why it's the bindpoint location on the recipient that determines the power they receive from a spiked Mistborn - because when that organ / power gets interfaced into the new Spiritweb it aligns itself to the system that grants that power, or to use the acupuncture terminology, because you are stapling it into the proper meridian. My guess is that what the Set is doing when they are trying to do non-lethal Hemalurgic harvesting is that they are either intentionally or unintentionally gathering power along those Spiritweb lines / meridians and it's those lines that would determine the power received - if the body could properly coordinate the function. This might explain why they sometimes get power out of those spikes but that it's inconsistent due to Identity contamination, imprecise harvesting away from the proper bindpoints to grant powers (i.e. I suspect that non-lethal harvesting at bindpoints that grant powers is the way to gain those same powers), and possibly because there isn't something locally coordinating the power. This loops back to how Inquisitors have a linchpin spike that coordinates the powers and are killed if that spike is removed - possible from too many alien and conflicting powers. Maybe Hemalurgic spikes could grant resonances with a linchpin as coordinator, but not when you're looking at the scale of a Mistborn anyway, since Mistborn don't have resonances. This might also lead in to how the fragment of soul trapped in the spike is technically intelligent, but just barely enough to get fooled into thinking it's back in a body of it's encased in a slab of meat. This necessary intelligence to grant powers in tandem may also be tied to Unsealed Metalminds, where perhaps they needed an added degree of intelligence in the Metalmind to enable coordination of multiple abilities. 

Where rhythms might come in is that this coordinating Spiritweb organ might be the internal thingy that A-Copper uses to create a Coppercloud - and is the reason why this was a valid bindpoint for the spike embedded in Penrod's heart that made him a very weak Smoker. Rhythms and the difficulty in finding a balance among competing rhythms might explain why Allomancers and Feruchemists either have a single ability or all the abilities - perhaps there's a spiritual alignment issue where if the Spirit is out of alignment it only has access to the power it is leaning to. Perhaps Lerasium in enlarging the soul also realigns it to more properly gain access to the different channels of power since we know that granting Mistborn status is technically only a side effect of Lerasium? That one feels like a stretch, since I would expect that alignment to have made a strong Allomancer like Wax into a full Mistborn, not just a very weak Mistborn and a strong Coinshot. That said, maybe this Spiritweb organ that can resonate with pulses or deaden them has to be able to coordinate all of those rhythms properly tying this back into your idea.

This might also explain why spikes might not be able to steal multiple powers if that component of the Spiritweb doesn't get divided well... though apparently an earring is big enough to properly harvest a viable ability, at least from the Spiritweb of an infant. Basically that chunk of soul away from its native Spiritweb and the proper setup to grant and utilize powers can only effectively grant a power at the proper junction in the recipient's Spiritweb - the bindpoints.

 

This was written out while my little family has been sick, so my thinking may not be the most clear, and I haven't fact checked with WoBs, but it's along the same line as why multiple powers may introduce complications. Also, sorry if this totally derails this from rhythms if that was what you were really wanting to discuss. Thanks for tagging me on this, I've been wondering for a while why this is an apparently hard rule that is now being brought into question. I'd add in the question "why do Allomancers and Feruchemists either have a single power or all 16?"

Edited July 7, 2024 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 7/6/2024 at 6:29 PM, Duxredux said:

My direction comes from Hemalurgy and Spiritwebs and pretty much hinges on Brandon saying that Hemalurgy was based off of acupuncture and meridians. The first idea was that the heart corresponds to a portion of the Spiritweb that coordinates/directs/controls Invested arts (not sure of a better term here, but those words will give you the gist). This... Spiritweb organ(?) is one of the main pieces being stolen by conventional Hemalurgy and it is usually necessary to steal it because it enables the recipient to consistently utilize the power. I got the idea for the heart connecting to a coordinating Spiritweb component from how Inquisitors have a linchpin to coordinate powers at higher numbers - perhaps there was a natural component that did the same function? This attached piece of soul might also explain why it's the bindpoint location on the recipient that determines the power they receive from a spiked Mistborn - because when that organ / power gets interfaced into the new Spiritweb it aligns itself to the system that grants that power, or to use the acupuncture terminology, because you are stapling it into the proper meridian. My guess is that what the Set is doing when they are trying to do non-lethal Hemalurgic harvesting is that they are either intentionally or unintentionally gathering power along those Spiritweb lines / meridians and it's those lines that would determine the power received - if the body could properly coordinate the function. This might explain why they sometimes get power out of those spikes but that it's inconsistent due to Identity contamination, imprecise harvesting away from the proper bindpoints to grant powers (i.e. I suspect that non-lethal harvesting at bindpoints that grant powers is the way to gain those same powers), and possibly because there isn't something locally coordinating the power. This loops back to how Inquisitors have a linchpin spike that coordinates the powers and are killed if that spike is removed - possible from too many alien and conflicting powers. Maybe Hemalurgic spikes could grant resonances with a linchpin as coordinator, but not when you're looking at the scale of a Mistborn anyway, since Mistborn don't have resonances. This might also lead in to how the fragment of soul trapped in the spike is technically intelligent, but just barely enough to get fooled into thinking it's back in a body of it's encased in a slab of meat. This necessary intelligence to grant powers in tandem may also be tied to Unsealed Metalminds, where perhaps they needed an added degree of intelligence in the Metalmind to enable coordination of multiple abilities. 

Yeah, definitely some deep stuff to dig into there.

Let me see if I understand your line of thinking on the lining up of Spiritweb fragments; in order to make a spike that can coordinate and thereby grant a power to a person, it needs not only the actual power, but also a "core" that acts as a brain of sorts to the spike.

Personally, my current thought process for how Hemalurgic spikes grant there power is more of a cause and effect than a fully concious effort on the spike's part; while all Investiture is somewhat aware, I think that you just have to align the power you get in a spike with the Spiritweb of the bearer, kind of like adding an additional gear to a clockwork mechanism that can now add its function to the whole. I think that the Investiture has to "choose" to do this to some extent as well (this WoB suggesting that it is slightly self-aware and capable of not decaying by being tricked), but I believe that Intent in this context is mostly just another simple mechanism of the Investiture saying "here's another Spiritweb. Let's grab onto it and become one!" And if the Spiritweb alignment is correct, you get a power as a result. If not, you just get excruciating pain.

Linchpin spikes I think may just be positioned correctly so as to add a gear to conjoin groups of spikes that don't fit closely together, as the Linchpin spike in an Inquisitor is always at the neck to bridge the eye spikes and the body spikes. We do also know that the type of spike itself doesn't matter for a Linchpin, so bindpoint position and Intent are the only possible factors. 

Quote

This necessary intelligence to grant powers in tandem may also be tied to Unsealed Metalminds, where perhaps they needed an added degree of intelligence in the Metalmind to enable coordination of multiple abilities. 

Intelligence for additional powers also makes some sense, and it leads me to another completely different question; does a Mistborn need an "intelligence" of significantly higher quality to align their sixteen naturally occurring powers? That's more than most Inquisitors, so if the logic is more powers = more intelligent Investiture to coordinate and embody it, does a Mistborn have such a thing?

Or, I suppose it could be more of a structural thing, where more extra Investiture is necessary for a coordinating component than for just the powers themselves (i.e. is a Mistborn more than 16 times as Invested than a Misting, as they need even more Investiture to coordinate it all?).

Quote

Where rhythms might come in is that this coordinating Spiritweb organ might be the internal thingy that A-Copper uses to create a Coppercloud - and is the reason why this was a valid bindpoint for the spike embedded in Penrod's heart that made him a very weak Smoker. Rhythms and the difficulty in finding a balance among competing rhythms might explain why Allomancers and Feruchemists either have a single ability or all the abilities - perhaps there's a spiritual alignment issue where if the Spirit is out of alignment it only has access to the power it is leaning to. Perhaps Lerasium in enlarging the soul also realigns it to more properly gain access to the different channels of power since we know that granting Mistborn status is technically only a side effect of Lerasium? That one feels like a stretch, since I would expect that alignment to have made a strong Allomancer like Wax into a full Mistborn, not just a very weak Mistborn and a strong Coinshot. That said, maybe this Spiritweb organ that can resonate with pulses or deaden them has to be able to coordinate all of those rhythms properly tying this back into your idea.

This might also explain why spikes might not be able to steal multiple powers if that component of the Spiritweb doesn't get divided well... though apparently an earring is big enough to properly harvest a viable ability, at least from the Spiritweb of an infant. Basically that chunk of soul away from its native Spiritweb and the proper setup to grant and utilize powers can only effectively grant a power at the proper junction in the recipient's Spiritweb - the bindpoints.

My main reasoning for the Rhythms being relevant to Spiritwebs, Hemalurgy, and multiple powers in general is that since those things are all made up of Investiture and since all Investiture should have a Rhythm, it's likely that we can draw some lines between the two.

Basically, my line of logic is tha an intelligent piece of Investiture will create Intent (in this case a human intelligence with a Spiritweb comprised of Investiture), which is picked up and echoed by other Investiture. This is probably what Shardic Vessels do, at a fundamental level.

As such, multiple echoes of Intent from multiple hardwired powers clash (the Rhythms or instructions are first given by the system itself with Allomancy and Feruchemy), which causes the stronger of the two to persevere while the other is overwritten or they clash so much they effectively destroy each other (this process could also explain why Investiture resists Investiture when not within a coordinated being).

On 7/6/2024 at 6:29 PM, Duxredux said:

This was written out while my little family has been sick, so my thinking may not be the most clear, and I haven't fact checked with WoBs, but it's along the same line as why multiple powers may introduce complications. 

So sorry to hear that friend. Hope you all feel better soon! 

Quote

Also, sorry if this totally derails this from rhythms if that was what you were really wanting to discuss. Thanks for tagging me on this, I've been wondering for a while why this is an apparently hard rule that is now being brought into question. I'd add in the question "why do Allomancers and Feruchemists either have a single power or all 16?"

No problems here, and I think that these will all tie in and explain each other eventually, so adding other things in makes a lot of sense. 

As for why as a Metalborn you get one, nothing, or all powers. . . I'm not sure. Could be that the system has a threshold where when you Snap you get some extra Investiture to fully use your power, and Mistborn are just at the threshold that causes the system to break down a little from its "original" roots and grant access to all pre-programmed powers instead of just one.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Trusk'our