Oudeis he/him Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Given what we know, here is my tentative, speculative guess on how Stormform!Eshonai turns into Radiant!Eshonai. I think she will be fighting someone while in a Highstorm. I think the comet-like spren will be nearby. I think Rlain, and/or perhaps her mother, will speak to her to the Rhythm of Peace, which seems to be something that makes Radiant!Eshonai stronger. I think this will give Radiant!Eshonai just enough of a boost to fight for control of her own mind long enough to desire to bond with the comet-spren. And she'll become a Radiant. Just my speculation.
Pathfinder Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) I do feel like stormform kind of acts like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Eshonai is inside screaming, but the Eshonai in control is the version of herself that focuses on all those negative aspects, hence the change in her "music". edit: to further elaborate, instead of it being an entirely seperate entity, its like "evil" doppelganger Eshonai, just without the goatee to stroke lol. Edited October 30, 2014 by Pathfinder
Moogle Posted October 31, 2014 Posted October 31, 2014 I do feel like stormform kind of acts like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Eshonai is inside screaming, but the Eshonai in control is the version of herself that focuses on all those negative aspects, hence the change in her "music". But this is not how all the other listener forms work. When you go into mateform, you're not locked inside your head while the spren controls you and has you try to mate with things. Why would stormform cause you to be 'locked inside your head', then? I have major issues with the idea that the screaming Eshonai hears in her own head is herself.
Pathfinder Posted October 31, 2014 Posted October 31, 2014 But this is not how all the other listener forms work. When you go into mateform, you're not locked inside your head while the spren controls you and has you try to mate with things. Why would stormform cause you to be 'locked inside your head', then? I have major issues with the idea that the screaming Eshonai hears in her own head is herself. Good point, but isn't stormform the first voidform we see? So perhaps it is in a class all its own? Or perhaps Eshonai's sister doesn't hear the screaming because she truly attunes to the new form, while Eshonai does not. It has been mentioned that some parshendi like some forms over others. Eshonai prefers warrior form, the head of mateform seems to be perfectly fine maintaining it, while it would drive Eshonai crazy and so on. Just bouncing around some thoughts
Moogle Posted October 31, 2014 Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Good point, but isn't stormform the first voidform we see? So perhaps it is in a class all its own? Or perhaps Eshonai's sister doesn't hear the screaming because she truly attunes to the new form, while Eshonai does not. It has been mentioned that some parshendi like some forms over others. Eshonai prefers warrior form, the head of mateform seems to be perfectly fine maintaining it, while it would drive Eshonai crazy and so on. Just bouncing around some thoughts Well, maybe it's in a new class. Maybe gaining more of Odium's Investiture allows the Unmade to influence you and lock you in your own head. But... mateform doesn't drive Eshonai crazy, so far as we know. Gaining a form influences your emotions so you like to do whatever it is the form is for. Someone in mateform isn't going to be horrified at their own actions, it influences your entire mindset so it isn't horrifying. The rare listener can control the form's urges and act unaffected... but even then, they're still not screaming in their head. They're in control. If someone was possessed, and we got a PoV of the possessing thing... they wouldn't refer to themselves as the possessed person it the first person. So when we hear Eshonai's screams in her head... well... I doubt it's her. The scream "sounds like her", but that doesn't make it her. We're getting her PoV after all, and it's not like she's split into two people. Mistborn spoilers: Marsh is controlled by Ruin, and when Ruin takes control, he's locked in his head... but he's not controlling his own body at that point like Eshonai still ostensibly is. If we were to take the PoV of the person controlling Marsh's body, we'd find out it was Ruin. Quotes regarding the screaming: That rhythm! It sounded like . . . like her own voice yelling at her . Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spren shot out. ... Eshonai attuned Peace. No. That was the screaming voice. How had she spent weeks in this form and not noticed? ... “You could have destroyed us,” Eshonai said. “What if this form had done something terrible?” Screaming. In her head. Venli smiled. ... That voice deep within Eshonai still screamed. Even when she didn’t attune the old Rhythm of Peace. It just doesn't seem like Eshonai is hearing herself scream. It's like she's hearing something else. Conveniently, we have Szeth: Szeth squeezed his eyes shut. The screams awaited him in that darkness. The screams of those he’d killed. And Kaladin hears them in the Everstorm: Szeth screamed words at Kaladin, but those were lost in the tempest. Rocks crashed down around them, ripped from somewhere distant. Kaladin was sure he heard terrible screams over the winds, as red spren he’d never seen before— like small meteors, trailing light behind them— zipped around him. Overall... I'm not sure if the screams are related or what, I'm just 90% confident the screams Eshonai is hearing aren't her own. (Edit: Kaladin sees cometspren too and they're red and they're related to the Everstorm and Eshonai sees a cometspren and we know that the listeners see spren differently than humans how did I never realize this before this demands theories and run-on sentences. Are these highspren? Are they of Odium? I don't even know! I need to think.) Edited October 31, 2014 by Moogle 1
Pathfinder Posted October 31, 2014 Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) A lot of good points, and I agree with a lot of what you say, this is just to clarify one part of my last post. I did not mean for you to think when I said mate form drove Eshonai crazy, that i meant like stormform level of crazy. i meant like gah, this is annoying/bothersome and how does this other person deal with it? I need to find the spot, but Eshonai states how she doesn't understand how the leader of mateform could stand it at all nonetheless staying in it for so long. I was just saying that certain forms certain listeners attune to more naturally than others. So the whole screaming thing could have been her in a form she wants NOTHING to do with. While mateform is uncomfortable, scholar form is meh, warrior form is juuuussttttt right, and stormform is oh god what the hell man! lol. But with all the other parallels you mentioned I am inclined to lean your way. Edited October 31, 2014 by Pathfinder
Quiver he/him Posted November 1, 2014 Posted November 1, 2014 Interesting points Moogle- but unlike our views on Amaram, I'm inclined to disagree. Now, as for why I disagree? That I can't quite explain- I need to do a Words re-read, but I loaned my copy to a friend (he read Way of Kings, but our local library doesn't have WoR yet). The only thing I do have to say is a reply/rebuttal/whatever to your Mistborn part I think there's an important part that you're overlooking in regards Marsh's control by Ruin which might be important for Eshonai; yes, he's locked in his head, and his actions are directed by Ruin... but there's also moments where his personality, for lack of a better phrase, get's screwed up. After all, he doesn't want to help Ruin; most of the times we see him in Hero of Ages he's debating how to get to the spike in his back so he can kill himself. But... when he is under Ruin's control, he enjoys himself. He commented that Hemalurgy was a messy art, and that was why it was fun. We saw Normal!Marsh was disgusted by it and wanted to kill himself, while Inquisitor!Marsh enjoyed it. I don't see why the same couldn't be true of Eshonai; enabled by different magical mechanics, but the same principle. The real Eshonai is buried in there, disturbed by what's going on, but Stormform!Eshonai doesn't care. 1
Moogle Posted November 1, 2014 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) I think there's an important part that you're overlooking in regards Marsh's control by Ruin which might be important for Eshonai; yes, he's locked in his head, and his actions are directed by Ruin... but there's also moments where his personality, for lack of a better phrase, get's screwed up. After all, he doesn't want to help Ruin; most of the times we see him in Hero of Ages he's debating how to get to the spike in his back so he can kill himself. But... when he is under Ruin's control, he enjoys himself. He commented that Hemalurgy was a messy art, and that was why it was fun. We saw Normal!Marsh was disgusted by it and wanted to kill himself, while Inquisitor!Marsh enjoyed it. I don't see why the same couldn't be true of Eshonai; enabled by different magical mechanics, but the same principle. The real Eshonai is buried in there, disturbed by what's going on, but Stormform!Eshonai doesn't care. Still Mistborn spoilers: Yes, his actions are directed by Ruin at times, and there are moments where his personality is influenced to be more Ruinous, but there is never a time when Marsh is described as feeling Ruinous and is also rebelling against Ruin's control. There are also times when Marsh is not under Ruin's direct control and is still feeling Ruinous. There's only ever one Marsh in his own head, and when he wants to work against Ruin, he has to break Ruin's hold on his mind. Relevant section: He knew, somehow, that the end was very near. The ground trembled beneath his feet, and he had to steady himself with one hand before continuing his work, snapping Vin’s other leg. The final day had arrived. The world would not survive this night. He laughed gleefully, fully in the throes of a blood frenzy, barely controlled as he broke Vin’s body. NO! Marsh awakened. Though his hands still moved as ordered, his mind rebelled. He took in the ash, and the rain, the blood and the soot, and it disgusted him. Vin lay nearly dead. Kelsier treated her like a daughter, he thought as he broke her fingers, one at a time. She was screaming. The daughter he never had with Mare. I’ve given up. Just like I did with the rebellion. It was the great shame of his life. Years ago, before the Collapse, he had led the skaa rebellion. But, he’d given in. He’d withdrawn, giving up leadership of the group. And he’d done it only one year before the rebellion—with Kelsier’s help—finally overthrew the Final Empire. Marsh had been its leader, but had given up. Just before the victory. No, he thought as he broke the fingers on her other hand. Not again. No more giving up! His hand moved up to her collarbone. And then he saw it. A single bit of metal, glittering in Vin’s ear. Her earring. Marsh is directly controlled here and his mind is influenced. While his mind is influenced, he doesn't need to be directly controlled (as we see in his earlier PoV), but here he breaks the influence on his mind and is still controlled. He is very much locked in his own head while Ruin controls him like a puppet, though he can still break Ruin's control if he tries hard enough. If I'm not mistaken, people are arguing that Eshonai is having her mind influenced, but that the "normal" Eshonai (I find it difficult to say any state of mind for Eshonai is normal, because every single one of the forms influence her mind) is still there, and she's screaming because she's locked in her own head while she does horrible things. This is completely opposite to how Marsh's PoV portrays possession. Either your mind is influenced or it is not, there aren't two different Eshonais as far as I can tell. She can't be screaming inside her own head while simultaneously enjoying ruining peace talks with Dalinar. And if she were screaming in her own head, she should be able to break Odium's control over her with enough willpower - and given how she's been previously able to master the various mental changes different forms cause, willpower is not something she's lacking. And I'm still not convinced Odium is directly controlling her like Ruin was controlling Marsh. Marsh was always aware when it was happening, and Eshonai never mentions it as happening. Marsh however was fully willing to follow Ruin's plan independently while his mind was controlled, and Eshonai seems to be similar. As far as I can tell, Eshonai is trapped in a constant Odious state like Marsh was (at most times) influenced to be Ruinous. That means the screaming she hears should be coming from an external source. The question is, what? It originally happens when she tunes into Peace, which means the screams are probably not Odious in nature. This implies it is not the same as the screams that Szeth hears (which seem to be Odious in nature). Her Shardblade is the only option that I can see as making any sense, and it is consistent with how Kaladin tunes into a dead Shardblade and hears it screaming. Edited November 1, 2014 by Moogle
Pathfinder Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Still Mistborn spoilers: Yes, his actions are directed by Ruin at times, and there are moments where his personality is influenced to be more Ruinous, but there is never a time when Marsh is described as feeling Ruinous and is also rebelling against Ruin's control. There are also times when Marsh is not under Ruin's direct control and is still feeling Ruinous. There's only ever one Marsh in his own head, and when he wants to work against Ruin, he has to break Ruin's hold on his mind. Relevant section: He knew, somehow, that the end was very near. The ground trembled beneath his feet, and he had to steady himself with one hand before continuing his work, snapping Vin’s other leg. The final day had arrived. The world would not survive this night. He laughed gleefully, fully in the throes of a blood frenzy, barely controlled as he broke Vin’s body. NO! Marsh awakened. Though his hands still moved as ordered, his mind rebelled. He took in the ash, and the rain, the blood and the soot, and it disgusted him. Vin lay nearly dead. Kelsier treated her like a daughter, he thought as he broke her fingers, one at a time. She was screaming. The daughter he never had with Mare. I’ve given up. Just like I did with the rebellion. It was the great shame of his life. Years ago, before the Collapse, he had led the skaa rebellion. But, he’d given in. He’d withdrawn, giving up leadership of the group. And he’d done it only one year before the rebellion—with Kelsier’s help—finally overthrew the Final Empire. Marsh had been its leader, but had given up. Just before the victory. No, he thought as he broke the fingers on her other hand. Not again. No more giving up! His hand moved up to her collarbone. And then he saw it. A single bit of metal, glittering in Vin’s ear. Her earring. Marsh is directly controlled here and his mind is influenced. While his mind is influenced, he doesn't need to be directly controlled (as we see in his earlier PoV), but here he breaks the influence on his mind and is still controlled. He is very much locked in his own head while Ruin controls him like a puppet, though he can still break Ruin's control if he tries hard enough. If I'm not mistaken, people are arguing that Eshonai is having her mind influenced, but that the "normal" Eshonai (I find it difficult to say any state of mind for Eshonai is normal, because every single one of the forms influence her mind) is still there, and she's screaming because she's locked in her own head while she does horrible things. This is completely opposite to how Marsh's PoV portrays possession. Either your mind is influenced or it is not, there aren't two different Eshonais as far as I can tell. She can't be screaming inside her own head while simultaneously enjoying ruining peace talks with Dalinar. And if she were screaming in her own head, she should be able to break Odium's control over her with enough willpower - and given how she's been previously able to master the various mental changes different forms cause, willpower is not something she's lacking. And I'm still not convinced Odium is directly controlling her like Ruin was controlling Marsh. Marsh was always aware when it was happening, and Eshonai never mentions it as happening. Marsh however was fully willing to follow Ruin's plan independently while his mind was controlled, and Eshonai seems to be similar. As far as I can tell, Eshonai is trapped in a constant Odious state like Marsh was (at most times) influenced to be Ruinous. That means the screaming she hears should be coming from an external source. The question is, what? It originally happens when she tunes into Peace, which means the screams are probably not Odious in nature. This implies it is not the same as the screams that Szeth hears (which seem to be Odious in nature). Her Shardblade is the only option that I can see as making any sense, and it is consistent with how Kaladin tunes into a dead Shardblade and hears it screaming. I would need to re-read those sections, which I shall do so at lunch today, but I think part of the difference is the POV. For Marsh the POV switches from controlled Marsh to less controlled Marsh while the POV is always Stormform Eshonai, so the difference you state could be simply because there aren't moments of less controlled Eshonai where we could here how she feels. I do admit that quote of Eshonai holding the spren while she heard the screaming is an excellent point and I forgot about that scene. I am going to read and research a bit more. Edited November 3, 2014 by Moogle added spoiler tags (yeah i know having an entire conversation in a spoiler is annoying)
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