Gavilar killed so Dalinar would succeed?

[kari-no-sugata]

The following is something that occurred to me today while doing an idle re-read...

"What is the point of research if not to draw conclusions?"

The above quote is from page 461 of the hardback, when Jasnah and Shallan are talking about Shallan's research into Gavilar's death and why the Parshendi did it and/or took credit for it.

When Shallan is asking why she has to do this, Jasnah talks about making it easier "to ease you into true scholarship" etc, but I get the feeling that that's just a convenient excuse. Reading between the lines I get the distinct impression that (I) Jasnah has no good theories for the murder herself and (II) is vaguely hoping for some off-the-wall / random ideas from Shallan. I'm not saying that Jasnah expects Shallan to be able to solve the mystery - just that she might think of something Jasnah hasn't: after all, she says "Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere's great catalysts for change, Shallan. [snip] Gavarah hadn't reached her twentieth Weeping when she proposed the theory of the three realms."

Shallan complains at length about the crack-pot theories she's been forced to read. I guess nobody in-world (in the public scholarly community) has any good theories either.

Ok, so here's my random idea...

The ultimate mastermind behind Gavilar's death was: Cultivation

Gavilar's death set a lot of new things in motion that would not have occurred otherwise. Though it has lead to war if anything it has (I) helped unite the Alethi (II) alert the whole world to the Parshendi. To me, this doesn't feel like something Odium would necessarily want.

It's hard to tell if the Parshendi are part of Odium's "forces", Honor's "forces", are good/neutral/evil etc. It's also hard to tell just what influence Honor's thoughts may still have in the world.

But, putting that aside... what motivation would Cultivation have? Well, maybe she could see that while Gavilar was along the right track that he would ultimately fail. Maybe she could see that if Gavilar died, and died in a particular way, that Dalinar would succeed, or at least have a real chance at succeeding. From what I remember Brandon saying before, Dalinar seems to be the "real" main character of the series as a whole - based on that, I don't think it's too far-fetched to have a "god" actively meddling with his fate.

I think it's plausible that Cultivation is trying to alert people in the world and help resurrect some old knowledge. It's hard to say how much direct and precise control she has over events and what Odium might be doing to counter things but let's say she deliberately engineered the following: (I) for there to be a new (and very rare) Truthless among the Shin (which ended up being Szeth) and for such a person to get involved in world affairs, to showcase some "old" magic abilities and maybe help the second coming of the Knights Radiant (II) for the Parshendi to be re-discovered in a public way (III) for Gavilar to die in a particular way that would set Dalinar along a particular path that would end up with him getting messages/visions from Honor.

Of course, the above could be desired by any "anti-Odium" forces so none of this uniquely points to Cultivation, though I think she would be best placed to have ancient knowledge about the world and the ability to bring about these events. Another counter-argument would be that not all the effects have been positive either - whether that's because my theory's wrong or because Odium is manipulating things too is hard to say.

In the end there's a lot we still dont know - for example, why is Honor dead but Cultivation still alive? Did she reach some bargain with Odium? Hopefully we'll find out eventually...

Hope this all makes some sense.

[Aeshdan]

One advantage to this theory is that it explains why an anti-odium work would be done in such a dishonorable way/

[Dros]

Do we know how long it takes to get Shardplate armor on?

[Aeshdan]

Do we know how long it takes to get Shardplate armor on?

probably ranges due to experience with the stuff. I'd guess a minimum of 1-2 minutes and not much more than 15.

[lil_literalist]

Well, this is an interesting theory. Ultimately, though, I'd say that it's too early to tell.

But really, the only thing that assassinating Gavilar accomplishes is to create war with the Parshendi. Gavilar and Dalinar are too similar for the purpose to simply be the replacement of one for the other.

[Dros]

probably ranges due to experience with the stuff. I'd guess a minimum of 1-2 minutes and not much more than 15.

Really? I would think it would take quite a while. How long did it take for Szeth to get to Gavilar's chamber once they knew he meant business? A couple minutes?

If you're right, there's nothing to what I'm thinking--but let's say it takes about 25-30 minutes (which is what it took knights back in the day). That would mean he already had it on and was ready for the assasination attempt.

Or--it does only take a couple minutes, and the Parshendi wanted to give time to Gavilar to put the armor on for whatever reason.

In any event, I agree--Gavilar was on the same track that Dalinar is on now. Why slow 'em down if they wanted the Way of Kings to be adopted in Alethi society?

[discipleofhoid]

In any event, I agree--Gavilar was on the same track that Dalinar is on now. Why slow 'em down if they wanted the Way of Kings to be adopted in Alethi society?

Thinking about this several quotes come to mind. One from Honor, and some from Navani and Dalinar's conversations.

I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future… I can only guess.

I’m terrified, Dalinar, and I need you. Gavilar was not the man everyone thought him to be. I was fond of him, but he—”

...

She looked up at him. “Well, let it be said—then—that I was fond of Gavilar. But I’m more than fond of you. And I’m tired of waiting.”

...

Gavilar is dead,” Navani said, resting her head back against his chest. “I was never unfaithful while he lived, though the Stormfather knows I had ample reason.

Did you often step aside for him?” Navani asked.

“Always.”

“Didn’t that grow tiresome?”

“I didn’t think about it much,” Dalinar said. “When I did… yes, I was frustrated. But it was Gavilar. You know how he was. That force of will, that air of natural entitlement. It always seemed to surprise him when someone denied him or when the world itself didn’t do as he wished. He didn’t force me to defer—it was simply how life was.”

Gavilar was definitely not the same type of man that Dalinar is and I would argue about them even being that similar. They both may have followed the Way of Kings but they were very different people before coming to the book and so are going to learn from it different.

As noted by Honor cultivation is more skilled at looking into the future. She might have seen some character flaw in Gavilar that would have doomed them all. Or maybe the war with the Parshendi was necessary. We really have to little to go on to be sure.

But I really don't think that we can discount this theory on the grounds that Gavilar and Dalinar were to similar.

[Anaris]

Personally i think the parshendi belong to the creations of honor, seeing that they seem to have a very strong sense of Honor.

As for cultivation, the first question to ask is not why, but if she is still alive. I think that is not definitly said and far from certain.

For instance there ist this epigraph in chapter eleven:

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

This could implicate that, while originally having three shardbearers(Honnor, Odium and Cultiation), Odium has now eliminated both of the others, so that roschar now has only one.

[discipleofhoid]

Personally i think the parshendi belong to the creations of honor, seeing that they seem to have a very strong sense of Honor.

As for cultivation, the first question to ask is not why, but if she is still alive. I think that is not definitly said and far from certain.

For instance there ist this epigraph in chapter eleven:

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

This could implicate that, while originally having three shardbearers(Honnor, Odium and Cultiation), Odium has now eliminated both of the others, so that roschar now has only one.

Going off this has Brandon ever said if Odium was one of the three referenced in that quote? Or is that just the common assumption.

[lil_literalist]

Going off this has Brandon ever said if Odium was one of the three referenced in that quote? Or is that just the common assumption.

"Odium is not native to Roshar." ^[Citation]

[Dros]

"Gavilar was definitely not the same type of man that Dalinar is and I would argue about them even being that similar. They both may have followed the Way of Kings but they were very different people before coming to the book and so are going to learn from it different.

As noted by Honor cultivation is more skilled at looking into the future. She might have seen some character flaw in Gavilar that would have doomed them all. Or maybe the war with the Parshendi was necessary. We really have to little to go on to be sure.

But I really don't think that we can discount this theory on the grounds that Gavilar and Dalinar were to similar."

Hmm...makes sense, I'll defer to that argument.

"Going off this has Brandon ever said if Odium was one of the three referenced in that quote? Or is that just the common assumption."

There was a reference to this somewhere before, the idea that maybe there were three shards on Roshar that weren't Odium and he hasn't arrived yet to Roshar. It's an interesting thought, but if Odium isn't on Roshar, how did he kill Honor? That brings up a lot of possibilities. One completely unsupported theory could be the Oathpact was between the three Shards opposing the Voidbringers and their master and Odium had nothing to do with it.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hi all, thanks for the responses. Normally when I do a big post, I spend a lot of time researching things and double-checking things... and sometimes it gets so tedious I end up not posting. So with the original post here I decided to just go "what the heck" and simply go ahead and post it when it hit me - and hope I dont get things too badly wrong.

After finishing to re-read the book earlier I realised that later on, regarding theories on why the Parshendi killed Gavilar, Jasnah does actually come out and say what I was reading between the lines (that she had no good ideas herself, considered it very important, and was hoping for some ideas from Shallan)

I also read that these "dying messages" started appearing around the time Gavilar discovered the Parshendi. These messages are certainly not natural and I really doubt any planet-hoppers could do this - I think it is fair to label the Shards as the prime suspects. But which Shard? Honor is "dead" - I guess you could say his Shard's power is still active but has no "brain" directing or changing things. Honor did setup those messages/visions for Dalinar (and others no doubt) to see so maybe he was also able to prepare things that could activate under some simple logic trigger as an early warning system to the world. I suspect that's about the most we could expect from Honor.

[name_here]

Really? I would think it would take quite a while. How long did it take for Szeth to get to Gavilar's chamber once they knew he meant business? A couple minutes?

If you're right, there's nothing to what I'm thinking--but let's say it takes about 25-30 minutes (which is what it took knights back in the day). That would mean he already had it on and was ready for the assasination attempt.

During the scene where Dalinar puts on his Shardplate, it snaps closed by itself, so I expect it's much faster to put on properly than normal plate armor.

The Parshendi do intentionally make their assassination attempts flashy and obvious to give the target warning, according to Szeth's narration.

[junior]

It's hard to tell if the Parshendi are part of Odium's "forces", Honor's "forces", are good/neutral/evil etc. It's also hard to tell just what influence Honor's thoughts may still have in the world.

The Parshendi are a huge question mark. It's obvious that there's more going on than we can tell at first glance. And the fact that Kaladin finds them honorable seems to be a nudge in the "good guys" catagory for them. On the other hand, there's also their obvious similarities to the Parshmen, and the conclusion by Jasnah and Shallan that the Parshmen are the descendents of the bogeymen in all of the old stories. That would seem to strongly suggest that the Parshendi are in fact in the "bad guys" category.

One more thing worth noting is that the Parshendi are clearly evolving their tactics to fight against the Alethi. Dalinar and Sadeas brought more troops to the plateaus... and the Parshendi starting doing the same. What's going to happen if Dalinar manages to get the entire Alethi army working together? Would the Parshendi evolve their tactics again? Is that what Taravangian is truly afraid of?

And then there's also that curious scene in which the Parshendi champion seemingly recognizes Dalinar.

[b4dave]

I have thought, since finding out that Honor was Splintered, that the Broken One refered to him...

[frozndevl]

The Parshendi are a huge question mark. It's obvious that there's more going on than we can tell at first glance. And the fact that Kaladin finds them honorable seems to be a nudge in the "good guys" catagory for them. On the other hand, there's also their obvious similarities to the Parshmen, and the conclusion by Jasnah and Shallan that the Parshmen are the descendents of the bogeymen in all of the old stories. That would seem to strongly suggest that the Parshendi are in fact in the "bad guys" category.

One more thing worth noting is that the Parshendi are clearly evolving their tactics to fight against the Alethi. Dalinar and Sadeas brought more troops to the plateaus... and the Parshendi starting doing the same. What's going to happen if Dalinar manages to get the entire Alethi army working together? Would the Parshendi evolve their tactics again? Is that what Taravangian is truly afraid of?

And then there's also that curious scene in which the Parshendi champion seemingly recognizes Dalinar.

I'm not sure that I would say that the Parshendi are adapting their tactics. I seem to recall from mentions in the book that they know exactly how many soldiers to bring to any of the plateau battles, and bringing 2x as many since Dalinar and Sadeas brought both armies follows that statement.

[Dros]

I have thought, since finding out that Honor was Splintered, that the Broken One refered to him...

I'm starting to explore that thought too. Couple things that seem hard to rectify though. The Face in the Storm says ODIUM REIGNS, which seems to say that Odium is in charge. However before that he says Odium is coming. How does he reign if he isn't even there yet?

Also, the KR in Dalinar's vision says "Three Gods" as a curse. It would seem strange for the KRs who are fighting Odium to refer to him as a god. People refer to the Odium as the "Enemy"...not a very worshipful term for a god.

It is said that three of sixteen ruled, now the Broken One reigns. It seems strange to me that Honor is referred to as the Almighty and the other two Shards are basically forgotten. Even after Honor is splintered, he is still worshipped as the Almighty. Some time between Dalinar's vision and present day Roshar, the other two Shards fall from people's minds and Honor is singled out as the Almighty.

Does that mean he is reigning as a Broken One? I have no idea, but there's an argument to be made for it.

[Aeshdan]

I'm not sure that I would say that the Parshendi are adapting their tactics. I seem to recall from mentions in the book that they know exactly how many soldiers to bring to any of the plateau battles, and bringing 2x as many since Dalinar and Sadeas brought both armies follows that statement.

That's exactly what junior was saying. The Alethi start coordinating multiple armies, so do the Parshendi.

[frozndevl]

That's exactly what junior was saying. The Alethi start coordinating multiple armies, so do the Parshendi.

I think you missed my point. The Parshendi aren't adapting or showing new tactics, they are just bringing more soldiers. Maybe if we are splitting hairs, this is an adaptation to superior numbers, but I wouldn't say new tactics. New Tactics would entail your opposition bringing 2x the soldiers, and you find a way to be competitive with your same size army, but utilize different techniques, strategy, armament, etc.

[Dros]

I thought the whole point about the Parshedi bringing more soldiers to match the increase of Alethi soldiers was to show that the Parshendi has more than enough soldiers to overwhelm their opponents through sheer numbers, but they choose not to. Presumably to be "honorable" or for some other reason in which we aren't privvy.

[Aeshdan]

I think you missed my point. The Parshendi aren't adapting or showing new tactics, they are just bringing more soldiers. Maybe if we are splitting hairs, this is an adaptation to superior numbers, but I wouldn't say new tactics. New Tactics would entail your opposition bringing 2x the soldiers, and you find a way to be competitive with your same size army, but utilize different techniques, strategy, armament, etc.

I see what you meant.

[junior]

I think you missed my point. The Parshendi aren't adapting or showing new tactics, they are just bringing more soldiers. Maybe if we are splitting hairs, this is an adaptation to superior numbers, but I wouldn't say new tactics. New Tactics would entail your opposition bringing 2x the soldiers, and you find a way to be competitive with your same size army, but utilize different techniques, strategy, armament, etc.

Point noted. On the other hand, we see them adapting to fight Kaladin. When he initially engages the Parshendi, he uses the gemstones in their beards to keep himself powered. They realize what he's up to and send guys without gemstones to keep him occupied. So they do show signs of being able to adapt. And if you're going to teach your race (particularly one that appears to have some sort of hive mind or ability to think in synch over long distances) how to fight, picking a fight with the best warriors on the planet is certainly one way to do so (provided your race as a whole survives the lessons...).

Just one more possibility.

[frozndevl]

Point noted. On the other hand, we see them adapting to fight Kaladin. When he initially engages the Parshendi, he uses the gemstones in their beards to keep himself powered. They realize what he's up to and send guys without gemstones to keep him occupied. So they do show signs of being able to adapt. And if you're going to teach your race (particularly one that appears to have some sort of hive mind or ability to think in synch over long distances) how to fight, picking a fight with the best warriors on the planet is certainly one way to do so (provided your race as a whole survives the lessons...).

Just one more possibility.

Very good point about the soldiers with the gemstones in their beards. That is another point to the fact that the Parshendi know more than most about stormlight as they are able to recognize what Kaladin is doing enough that they can attempt to contain it.

[CabbageHead]

"Odium is not native to Roshar." ^[Citation]

I think that's just Brandon messing with people. None of the shard bearers are native to their respective planets, with the exception of Harmony.

As for the idea that Cultivation was behind Gavilar's death.... was she just doing a bit of pruning? /hide