Relis hears a voice

[Aleksiel]

What do you think Relis would have said to Adolin if he beat his cousin without humiliating him for an hour? "How dare you win in a fair fight without using any tricky and without acting dishonorably!"? I'm rather firmly in the camp that being beaten because your opponent is better than you is not humiliating in the slightest. It's being toyed with that's humiliating.

 

Surrendering would have been more humiliating than what happened, I imagine, which is likely why he didn't do it.

 

Quickly beating Elit, basically one-shotting him in a duel that lasts just a few minutes, also sounds humiliating to me. Then Relis would have been: 'Pick a fight with someone on your level, you cremling!' Both cases can be viewed as humiliation and mind you it's not Adolin's job to make sure Elit's feelings aren't hurt, he's old enough to look after himself.  As I said, which would have better is an open discussion, but it depends on one's own views and understanding.

 

Elit put himself in a bad situation to allow a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin. Relis puts Adolin in a terrible situation to let a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin again. He's not an innocent, but blaming it all on him is uncalled for. If Adolin should have forfeited, same goes for Elit.

[Guest]

Sorry, but this is one of those times that I just feel compelled to voice my disagreement. I really don't think you understand what must have been the magnitude of Elit's humiliation in his dual with Adolin. Alethkar is basically a warrior society, the greatest calling in life is to be a soldier, and martial prowess is greatly revered. I don't claim to be an too knowledgable in such things, but I can't think of a single more humiliating thing Adolin could have done to Elit than what he did in that dual. If Adolin had beat Elit in a single strike, It would not have been (IMO) as humiliating. Instead, he toyed with him for a full hour, showing he has absolutely no respect whatsoever for Elit, and making a spectacle of him in front of everybody in attendence. Do you really think that no one else would have seen what Adolin was doing? I am not surprised his whole family felt the shame of that defeat. You ask what Adolin could have done differently? He could have beat Elit in 5 minutes like a respectful dualist instead of humiliating him for 55 minutes in front of the Alethi court, just to rub in how much better he is at dualing.

[/inconsequential rant]

My point is, it really was a jerk move—you can show your skill without humiliating someone like that. Sure, Adolin needed to do something to goad Relis into dualling him, but that doesn't make the act any more honourable (journey before destination and all that).

 

We are of course in disagreement.

 

You believe defeating Elit in one single strike is less humiliating then defeating him over an hour. That is a matter of perspective as losing without being able to even fend of one blow is also a very humiliating way to lose. In fact, most of Elit (thanks for correcting the name, I have been referencing to him as Relit ) humiliation comes from the fact he believes he has lost to a lesser opponent. Worst, he lost in a decisive manner.

 

The core of my argumentation is that other duelists do not think Adolin is a worthy opponent. They all think he is below then and they are doing him a favor by lowering themselves into accepting his challenges. Now, let's look at Relis's response after Adolin challenges him to a duel:

 

"It's protocol, Adolin! I'll duel you once you fight up through the brackets for a year or two. I can't just take on any old challenger, particularly not in a bout with our shards on the line!"

"Any old challenger?" Adolin said. "Relis, I'm one of the best there is."

"Are you?" Relis asked, smiling. "After that display with Eranniv?"

"Yes, Adolin, " said Elit, Relis's short, balding cousin. "You've only had a handful of duels of any consequences in recent memory - in one of those you basically cheated, and in the second you won by sheer luck!"

 

Basically, Relis is telling Adolin to fight of all of the lesser contestant for a year or two and then, perhaps, he'll consider lowering himself to his level and giving him the favor of letting him duel him. Elit believes the same, but greed pushed him to accept the challenge.

 

Therefore, from house Ruthar's point-of-vue, Elit lost against a lesser opponent: he must thus have cheated. It is impossible, for Relis and Elit, that Adolin may have won fair and scare, which he did.

 

Now, let's take a look at this famous duel...

 

Elit has apparently expected Adolin to be reckless, as in the first duel for shards. Elit kept backing up, waiting for that moment of recklessness, Adolin did not give it to him.

 

Later on...

 

Elit came in again, and Adolin slapped away his strikes, but did not counterattack.

 

...

 

He was disgusted by the highprinces and their squabbling, but today, he would not show them fury, Instead, he'd show them perfection.

 

...

 

Adolin smiled inside his helm as Elit nodded and dashed forward in Smokesstance, thrusting with his blade. A gamble. Most contests against Plate were won by breaking sections, but at times you could drive the point of your Blade through a joint between plates, cracking them and scoring a hit.

 

Il was also a way to try to wound your opponent, more than just defeat him.

 

Elit growled audibly from within his helm, then came in with another thrust. Right at Adolin's faceplate.

Trying to kill me, are you? Adolin thought....

 

Elit was not a weakling playing played with, he is not a defenseless mouse being tossed around by the big bad cat. He's another cat with claws who fought to wound his opponent. I am sorry, but from my perspective, openly trying to wound an opponent in a fight is the most honorless of tactics. Adolin fought to perfection. He showed of and as he result, Elit felt humiliated as he fell to score a hit on someone he thinks he should have defeated, easily. When Elit realized the fight was not going as expected: he resolved himself to physically injure Adolin.

 

And Adolin is the bully in this scene? He is the one being a jerk? He broke no rules. He fought a perfect duel. I just don't get how he is supposed to be the aggressor here.

 

I have come to think most of our disagreement must come from the fact some of you disagree with the display of skill Adolin did. He showed of, he displayed his talent. Personally, I cannot fault him for this as each time you stepped into this ring, you are indeed showing of. I also believe Elit would have felt humiliated no matter how Adolin would have fought. There is no possible strategy Adolin could have used that would have safeguard Elit and Relis's honor. He was supposed to lose, period.

 

As for having his family feel humiliated by the way he won, I believe you are reading the story wrong. Part of the reason Adolin conducts himself in this fashion during his duels is because Dalinar demanded it of him. He was asked to be spectacular, to win in decisive manners.

 

"I won".

"You did, " Navani said, stepping up, inspecting him as if for wounds. She was always worried when he dueled. "But weren't you supposed to do it with great fanfare?".

 

So not only his family is not ashamed, they think he did not put up a good enough show.

 

 

Quickly beating Elit, basically one-shotting him in a duel that lasts just a few minutes, also sounds humiliating to me. Then Relis would have been: 'Pick a fight with someone on your level, you cremling!' Both cases can be viewed as humiliation and mind you it's not Adolin's job to make sure Elit's feelings aren't hurt, he's old enough to look after himself.  As I said, which would have better is an open discussion, but it depends on one's own views and understanding.

 

Elit put himself in a bad situation to allow a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin. Relis puts Adolin in a terrible situation to let a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin again. He's not an innocent, but blaming it all on him is uncalled for. If Adolin should have forfeited, same goes for Elit.

 

Exactly.

 

Elit is a grown man, probably older and more experience then Adolin as attested by his balding head. And if someone behaved badly during that duel, it is Elit. There is no shame in trying to fight the most perfect duel ever. There is no shame in being able to pull it of and there is no shame in not letting your opponent score a hit just to safeguard his pride.

 

However, they is shame to, once realizing you are outmatched, to resolve yourself to wound your opponent. There is shame in being such a sore loser. You were bested. Period. It does not matter if the duel did not allow beautiful long strikes, it matters the duel was played within the rules between two agreeing opponents, which it did.

 

If Elit wanted to end it, he could have ended it before.

 

Adolin did not deserve to be punish for winning a duel and he certainly did not deserve to be trapped into an unfair match whose sole purpose was to cripple him. He did not have it coming. Being arrogant and desperate to find more duels to accomplish your father's grant plan following a gruesome defeat that cost the life of 6000 of your men while having ALL of the other highprinces dismissing it ever happened does not warranty you to be killed. Relis and his team have no excuse. They are the culprits here, not Adolin.

[kaellok he/him]

 

 

I have come to think most of our disagreement must come from the fact some of you disagree with the display of skill Adolin did. He showed of, he displayed his talent. Personally, I cannot fault him for this as each time you stepped into this ring, you are indeed showing of. I also believe Elit would have felt humiliated no matter how Adolin would have fought. There is no possible strategy Adolin could have used that would have safeguard Elit and Relis's honor. He was supposed to lose, period.

No; most of the disagreement is because of Adolin's actions, both during and after the duel.  In what world is it honorable to threaten someone with death after they've already lost a duel with clearly defined limits?  Seriously.  Because that's exactly what Adolin did.  Forget the duel--his immediate actions after winning were full of Odium (we know this, because of the reference to the Thrill).  We know he wasn't acting honorably there; there is no defense for his actions, of threatening to crush a defeated man's throat with Plate.  That, in particular, is what set up the revenge duel that was designed to maim/cripple Adolin (at least, in my mind).  

 

The fact that he didn't carry it out means that Relis and his friends acted way out of line in their duel.  They were wrong, and more wrong than Adolin.  That does not, in any way, make Adolin's actions more right, though.  Dalinar was using Adolin to move against the highprinces, and to force the Alethi to act and behave in ways that they don't want to.  Relis was likely being used by Sadeas as a counter to this move.  Neither Adolin or Relis were blameless innocents walking into that duel.  If you poke a sleeping bear with a stick until it attacks you, then you bear (pun intended) some of the blame. 

 

 

 

Adolin did not deserve to be punish for winning a duel and he certainly did not deserve to be trapped into an unfair match whose sole purpose was to cripple him. He did not have it coming. Being arrogant and desperate to find more duels to accomplish your father's grant plan following a gruesome defeat that cost the life of 6000 of your men while having ALL of the other highprinces dismissing it ever happened does not warranty you to be killed. Relis and his team have no excuse. They are the culprits here, not Adolin.

 

the 4 on 1 duel was more than just punishment for winning a duel.  I mean, Adolin's own supposed friend was taking part against him.  It was to punish the Kholins in general, and Adolin in particular.  Adolin was only 'trapped' in the match because he charged headlong into it, both before he realized it was there--and then afterwards as well.  If you've fallen over the wall at a zoo and are in a pit with a bear, and you decide to attack it, then it may be at least a little bit your fault if the bear attacks you back.  

 

Dalinar and Adolin decided to fight back against Sadeas's treachery (which was entirely in keeping with the Alethi way of life and the laws of the land) by trying the exact same tricks and manipulations.  The plan was not honorable.  You cannot find fault with what Sadeas did in one breath, and then find Adolin entirely blameless with the next, because their basic actions are the same--the only difference is one of scale.  (Sadeas tricked Dalinar into thinking that they were allies, and then when the moment was right, left Dalinar and all his men to die.  Adolin tricked Elit and others into thinking he was a worse duelist than he was, and when the moment was right, soundly pounded them in a humiliating defeat.)

 

Again, I'm not, at all, saying that Adolin was wrong, or that he deserved what was planned.  I'm saying that he was not innocent, he was not blameless, he was not acting honorably.  In comparison to Relis and crew?  Sure.  But, Relis and crew were acting honorably in comparison to Sadeas.  Such a comparative view is not really helpful, is it?

[Guest]

No; most of the disagreement is because of Adolin's actions, both during and after the duel.  In what world is it honorable to threaten someone with death after they've already lost a duel with clearly defined limits?  Seriously.  Because that's exactly what Adolin did.  Forget the duel--his immediate actions after winning were full of Odium (we know this, because of the reference to the Thrill).  We know he wasn't acting honorably there; there is no defense for his actions, of threatening to crush a defeated man's throat with Plate.  That, in particular, is what set up the revenge duel that was designed to maim/cripple Adolin (at least, in my mind). 

 

But we are not discussing the Salinar duel, but the Elit one. Adolin never threatened Elit in anyway. In fact, he fought down the Thrill the whole time he was dueling him: he was not full of Odium in that fight. There a few quotes to support this. Relis did not wish to cripple Adolin because of what he did to Salinor, Relis does not care about Salinor. Relis is angry Adolin won against Elit and thus deprived his house of one Plate.

 

Let's not mix the duels here. Everyone agrees Adolin actions were out of proportions in the first duel, but it is not what we have been discussing in the later posts. The disagreement was mostly about Adolin's choice of strategy when fighting Elit.

 

 

The fact that he didn't carry it out means that Relis and his friends acted way out of line in their duel.  They were wrong, and more wrong than Adolin.  That does not, in any way, make Adolin's actions more right, though.  Dalinar was using Adolin to move against the highprinces, and to force the Alethi to act and behave in ways that they don't want to.  Relis was likely being used by Sadeas as a counter to this move.  Neither Adolin or Relis were blameless innocents walking into that duel.  If you poke a sleeping bear with a stick until it attacks you, then you bear (pun intended) some of the blame. 

 

Adolin never meant to injure Salinor. He threatened him, but never had the intention to actually kill him. Besides, if you go re-read the sequence, Adolin only threatens Salinor after being accused of cheating, after Salinor refuses to let him have his Blade. That is no excuse, of course. You should never threaten someone. He should have waited for the judge to enforce the rules. However, this event only happened during this one duel. I will make my point again, Adolin did nothing reprehensible in the Elit duel, which is what we have been discussing.

 

Dalinar is using Adolin to assert house Kohlin's power because following their gruesome defeat, they are in a bad position. They have literally no allies and if they failed to ripost, they would have been crushed. House Kohlin had to come up with a plan even if it means playing the same game as the others. Dalinar knew this very well and was willing to use every tool at this disposition, including his son.

 

I am unsure if Sadeas is using Relis or not.

 

 

the 4 on 1 duel was more than just punishment for winning a duel.  I mean, Adolin's own supposed friend was taking part against him.  It was to punish the Kholins in general, and Adolin in particular.  Adolin was only 'trapped' in the match because he charged headlong into it, both before he realized it was there--and then afterwards as well.  If you've fallen over the wall at a zoo and are in a pit with a bear, and you decide to attack it, then it may be at least a little bit your fault if the bear attacks you back.  

 

Jakamav is not Adolin's friend. Jakamav was Adolin's acquaintance when house Kohlin was in favor. Now that house Kohlin has fallen from grace, Jakamav wants nothing to do with Adolin anymore. The friendly evenings they have shared did not matter to him as he was offered the opportunity to win himself a Blade in an easy fight.

 

As I said earlier, Adolin had little choice when he was faced with the 4 shardbearers. Yes, he could have yielded without a fight, but it would have meant giving up ALL of his family's shards without even trying. It would have mean the end of Dalinar's plan. He had to, at the very least try, which he did. He had no way of knowing his right to yield would later be compromised.

 

 

Dalinar and Adolin decided to fight back against Sadeas's treachery (which was entirely in keeping with the Alethi way of life and the laws of the land) by trying the exact same tricks and manipulations.  The plan was not honorable.  You cannot find fault with what Sadeas did in one breath, and then find Adolin entirely blameless with the next, because their basic actions are the same--the only difference is one of scale.  (Sadeas tricked Dalinar into thinking that they were allies, and then when the moment was right, left Dalinar and all his men to die.  Adolin tricked Elit and others into thinking he was a worse duelist than he was, and when the moment was right, soundly pounded them in a humiliating defeat.)

 

 

You cannot put Sadeas's betrayal and Adolin's behavior during the duels on the same scale! Sadeas's single-handily caused the death of 6000 men and would have been happy to see the remaining 4000 die as well. Adolin was not to kill anyone: he was to fight duels for shards, win them and thus deprived the other houses of their leverage. Adolin did not coax anyone into fighting him: he goaded them by offering them a ridiculous among of shards, but he did not force anyone, nor did he commit any betrayal. He fought one questionable duel, but even the judges had to admit he did not break any rules. He was ruthless, but the outcome was Salinor's ego being crushed. How does that even start to compare to Sadeas's actions as a whole?

 

Adolin did not need to trick Relis and Elit into thinking he was a bad duelist: they already had a poor opinion of him. Besides, Adolin resorted to this tactics after EVERYONE refused to fight him, including the lesser fighters. No one wanted to take part into the duels, mostly due to Ialai's influence and bribes. However, the fact remains most duelists never took Adolin seriously. The first fight he managed to secured was an insult as he had to wager both his Plate and his Blade against a Blade only. Salinor sure thought Adolin was not threat. The core of my argumentation relies over these facts. Adolin has been out of the dueling circuit for pretty much all of his dueling career. He has not win any significant fights in years and it could be the only significant fight he has ever won was the one where he got his Blade. He is the laughing stock amongst his peers.

 

Sadeas either did not take Adolin seriously until he actually noticed him cleverly maneuvering Erraniv around and Sadeas has seen Adolin fight on the battle ground.

 

 

Again, I'm not, at all, saying that Adolin was wrong, or that he deserved what was planned.  I'm saying that he was not innocent, he was not blameless, he was not acting honorably.  In comparison to Relis and crew?  Sure.  But, Relis and crew were acting honorably in comparison to Sadeas.  Such a comparative view is not really helpful, is it?

 

Relis and his crew planned to kill someone by misleading him, which is quite the same as Sadeas. The only difference is the number of people involved. I tend to put them in the same basket.

 

I think the overall concept of honor while fighting a duel may be misleading. Honor means respecting one's opponent. I never got that Adolin was not respecting Elit during his duel. He sought to fight a perfect fight which does not mean dishonoring Elit. Elit kind of dishonored himself by being a sore loser and by trying to injure his opponent upon realizing he did not have the upper hand.

[Guest]

But all that being said, we can also all agree to disagree

[Moogle]

Quickly beating Elit, basically one-shotting him in a duel that lasts just a few minutes, also sounds humiliating to me. Then Relis would have been: 'Pick a fight with someone on your level, you cremling!' Both cases can be viewed as humiliation and mind you it's not Adolin's job to make sure Elit's feelings aren't hurt, he's old enough to look after himself.  As I said, which would have better is an open discussion, but it depends on one's own views and understanding.

 

I sincerely, sincerely doubt Relis would ever say this. I'm sorry, I think we'll just have to disagree on this one, I believe Relis saying that would go against all Alethi culture. They're all against gaining power over the weak, and one trying to ask for a fair fight is ridiculous in my mind. Relis would have been laughed at by every other Alethi if he said that. And Adolin was already refused fights with all the other duelists, so he could just say "I did try to find people on my own level!"

 

I never got that Adolin was not respecting Elit during his duel. He sought to fight a perfect fight which does not mean dishonoring Elit. Elit kind of dishonored himself by being a sore loser and by trying to injure his opponent upon realizing he did not have the upper hand.

 

Adolin specifically says he's punishing them during the duel:

Dalinar couldn’t do anything more to them without risking open war. But Adolin could punish them in other ways.

 

Adolin very specifically drags the fight out by not counterattacking:

The crowd murmured, conversations rising over the arena. Elit came in again, and Adolin slapped away his strikes, but did not counterattack.

 

Shallan, too, notices this way of fighting and just staying away and delaying:

“So, uh, you liked the duel?” he asked.

“You were wonderful,” Shallan said, turning back to him. “Elit kept jumping at you, and you just brushed him off like an annoying cremling trying to crawl up your leg.”

 

As he shows at the end, his plan was to win by exhausting Elit's Stormlight by doing hundreds of little strikes, then pushing him over so he'd be collapsed in the middle of the arena, unable to move, stuck in his own armor.

 

Adolin specifically doesn't follow the traditional moves to do this:

Some in the crowd cheered at the straight-on blow. Others booed, however. The classical strike there would have been to hit Elit’s head, trying to shatter the helm.

 

This is clearly found unacceptable by everyone (including the highjudge), as it breaks convention and is overall a jerk move:

Then, Adolin strolled forward, placed a hand against Elit’s chest, and shoved him over. He crashed to the ground.

Adolin looked up at Brightlady Istow, highjudge. “Judgment,” the highjudge said with a sigh, “again goes to Adolin Kholin. The victor. Elit Ruthar forfeits his Plate.”

The crowd didn’t much like it. Adolin turned to face them, sweeping his Blade a few times before dismissing it to mist. He removed his helm and bowed to their boos. Behind, his armorers— whom he’d prepared for this— rushed out and pushed away those of Elit.

 

Adolin even finishes off with a mocking bow!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest]

Adolin specifically says he's punishing them during the duel:

 

Adolin very specifically drags the fight out by not counterattacking:

 

As he shows at the end, his plan was to win by exhausting Elit's Stormlight by doing hundreds of little strikes, then pushing him over so he'd be collapsed in the middle of the arena, unable to move, stuck in his own armor.

 

Adolin specifically doesn't follow the traditional moves to do this:

 

This is clearly found unacceptable by everyone (including the highjudge), as it breaks convention and is overall a jerk move:

 

Adolin even finishes off with a mocking bow!

 

Alright. Adolin can be an arrogant show-of at times, but he's a 22 years old kid who has never known defeat. I do agree he should not have ended the fight the way he did. However, I do not fault him for the remaining of his strategy: exhausting the stormlight, not counterattacking and trying to win by striking every single piece of armor may not have been the traditional outcome of a duel, but sure is not as reprehensible. 

 

Besides, we could also argue Elit had it coming and he and his cousin continually dismissed Adolin as a worthy opponent, laughing of him and insulting his father. Now, I strongly disagree with this line of thought and Adolin sure should have known better, but keeping his hothead into control seem to have been a constant struggle for Adolin in this book.

 

Anyway, Adolin's winning streak will most likely come to an end in the next book. I am quite sure he'll end up losing a few important fights.

[kaellok he/him]

I guess I need to re-read the duels; they're mixing together in my head, and the quotes provided in this thread are not doing much.  Sadly, I keep leaving my book at home when I'm here at work, which is silly because here at work is when I do most of my posting hah.

 

Regardless, you missed my point when you stated:

 

 

 

You cannot put Sadeas's betrayal and Adolin's behavior during the duels on the same scale!

I am saying that the only difference is the scale.  The action taken, at its basic core, is the same: manipulate the rules and expectations and perceptions of others for personal gain.  Adolin did it to a few people, Sadeas did it to several thousand.  both found victory of a sort, but not as complete as they would have wished.

 

For the most part, the rest of the arguments I'm making you seem to understand, and we simply disagree.  I don't understand how you can think that Adolin was acting with honor in the duels leading up to the 4 on 1, but you seem to have a somewhat different idea or definition of what is honorable than me--and that's fine 

[Stormwalker]

As for having his family feel humiliated by the way he won, I believe you are reading the story wrong. Part of the reason Adolin conducts himself in this fashion during his duels is because Dalinar demanded it of him. He was asked to be spectacular, to win in decisive manners.

 

 

Sorry about the pronoun confusion, I meant that Elit's family (the Ruthars) would be humiliated, not the Kholins.

 

 

You believe defeating Elit in one single strike is less humiliating then defeating him over an hour. That is a matter of perspective as losing without being able to even fend of one blow is also a very humiliating way to lose. In fact, most of Elit (thanks for correcting the name, I have been referencing to him as Relit ) humiliation comes from the fact he believes he has lost to a lesser opponent. Worst, he lost in a decisive manner.

 

My idea was this: If Adolin had beaten quickly, it would have shown that Adolin was a much better dualist than Elit, but it would also show that Adolin actually tried his hardest to win. That is where being respectful of your opponent comes in—they deserve your trying your best to win, whether or not it is actually needed. But Adolin didn't try his hardest to win, he dragged out the fight when he could have easily won in minutes. It's equivalent to if he had kept one arm behind his back the entire dual. If Adolin had tried that tactic on a better opponent, he would have lost in no time; while Elit was trying his hardest to win, Adolin was making a joke of him in front of everyone. It isn't that Adolin is just a better opponent (there is no shame in that other than Elit's boasting that he was better), it's that he showed to everyone that he didn't even need to try in order to beat Elit. The message it sends is that Elit is not even worthy of fighting Adolin (i.e. one of sheer contempt for his opponent)—I don't see how you don't think that is humiliating.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Stormwalker

[Guest]

I guess I need to re-read the duels; they're mixing together in my head, and the quotes provided in this thread are not doing much.  Sadly, I keep leaving my book at home when I'm here at work, which is silly because here at work is when I do most of my posting hah.

 

Yeah. The whole discussion has gotten confusing at times... I may have add to the confusion by calling Elit, Relit :ph34r:

 

Adolin fought four duels.

 

1) Salinor. The one where he fought under the heavy influence of Odium. He end it by crushing his opponents throat as he called him a cheater and refused to hand his blade. I guess we all agree Adolin's behavior was out of line in that one.

 

2) Eranniv. The one where he hid his true skill and made it a close match. Nobody had made any comments that I recall on that one.

 

3) Elit. The one where he dragged it for an hour. That is where most of our discussions have been about as this duel have caused the 4 on 1 fight. We disagree as to whether Adolin's strategy is with or without honor and if it called for punishment or not.

 

4) 4 on 1. We all agree the punishment was out of proportion and that Adolin sure did not deserved to be crippled. However, we disagree as to Adolin's conduct during this duel. Some of us thinks he should have yielded immediately and deserve what came next while some of us argued he couldn't just walk away with all his family's shards inline and he couldn't know in advance his right to yield would be compromised. Others have argued he still had the right to yield, which I disagree as his opponents made sure he would not get the opportunity to do so.

 

That's a more or less accurate resume of all the discussion we've had so far. I have left out a few things and I may have forgotten about others.

 

 

 

I am saying that the only difference is the scale.  The action taken, at its basic core, is the same: manipulate the rules and expectations and perceptions of others for personal gain.  Adolin did it to a few people, Sadeas did it to several thousand.  both found victory of a sort, but not as complete as they would have wished.

 

For the most part, the rest of the arguments I'm making you seem to understand, and we simply disagree.  I don't understand how you can think that Adolin was acting with honor in the duels leading up to the 4 on 1, but you seem to have a somewhat different idea or definition of what is honorable than me--and that's fine 

 

But I disagree as Adolin was never after personal gain. His whole motivation was to fulfill his father's plan. Sure, being made the dueling champion was his dream, but he never once mentioned it during the course of the action. In fact, the first he talks to his Blade, he mentions his desire to uphold his father's plan, not his desire to be made champion. The second time he talks to his Blade, he said he was going to be spectacular, just like Dalinar wanted. All his inner thoughts while fighting are about Dalinar and winning shards for father, never about his own personal glory, so I think it is unfair to claim Adolin is after it.

 

As for my definition of honor, I guess I tend to think that as long as the rules of dueling are not broken, if a fight is won by flowing moves or by careful leakage of Plate parts, it does not really matter. However, I have to agree Adolin did act as a jerk at the end of the Elit duel. I do not fault his strategy, but the ending was not great. As I said in response to Moogle, Adolin has sometimes the tendency to come out as an arrogant show-of.

 

 

Sorry about the pronoun confusion, I meant that Elit's family (the Ruthars) would be humiliated, not the Kholins.

 

Alright. Thanks for the precision. I do agree Ruthar house would see it as humiliation.

 

 

My idea was this: If Adolin had beaten quickly, it would have shown that Adolin was a much better dualist than Elit, but it would also show that Adolin actually tried his hardest to win. That is where being respectful of your opponent comes in—they deserve your trying your best to win, whether or not it is actually needed. But Adolin didn't try his hardest to win, he dragged out the fight when he could have easily won in minutes. It's equivalent to if he had kept one arm behind his back the entire dual. If Adolin had tried that tactic on a better opponent, he would have lost in no time; while Elit was trying his hardest to win, Adolin was making a joke of him in front of everyone. It isn't that Adolin is just a better opponent (there is no shame in that other than Elit's boasting that he was better), it's that he showed to everyone that he didn't even need to try in order to beat Elit. The message it sends is that Elit is not even worthy of fighting Adolin (i.e. one of sheer contempt for his opponent)—I don't see how you don't think that is humiliating.

 

You do make nice points. Adolin can be arrogant at times, especially when it comes to his specific talent. However to his defense, he was asked to win in a great fanfare, to be spectacular. I do however think Relis's reaction to Adolin's duel was out-of-proportion. Calling him a cheater? Arrogant, yes. Show-of, yes but not a cheater.

[Oudeis he/him]

 

Exactly. All of the virtues embodied by the Radiants excludes a proto-Radiant from being selfish and cruel. Radiants has also all shown greater then usual talents and all are inspiring in their own personal way.

 

 

Ehhh... I'm still disagreeing. We've only seen three Radiants closely, at all. Lift and Ym each had a single chapter, Szeth, Jasnah and Renarin are only mentioned briefly. It's an incredibly small sample size, and I humbly submit that what you're referencing is a false positive.

 

Specifically, the Protagonist Syndrome.

 

There are a LOT more allomancers in Mistborn than there are Radiants in Stormlight Archives. Let's imagine we saw just eight. Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Ham, Breeze, Allriane, Spook, Clubs. By this sample, we'd say that to be an allomancer, you HAVE to be a good, honorable person. And these are the main characters. We see a dozen or more casual allomancers throughout the book, not to mention the actual bad guys.

 

If we'd seen 20 Radiants, some of them antagonists, some of them simply random people, and not a single one of them were someone "virtue-less", I would agree with you that it led to the belief that you must have "virtue" to be a Radiant. It still wouldn't be as good as concrete proof of an underlying principle, but it'd be compelling. But how many people do we know of that we KNOW have said a single Ideal? Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah (because she has a Blade), Lift, Dalinar. We have no reason to suspect Ym has said one, Renarin likely has but we don't know he has, when we last saw Szeth he definitely had not since we saw literally every second of his life since dying.

 

With a sample size of five, maybe six that we have ever seen, five of which are protagonists, we cannot possibly make broad generalizations about the entire potential group of people. And Szeth killed hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent, defenseless people. If we accept that this is okay because he did it all because of a slavish adherence to the Rule of Law, why then can we not accept that Relis's actions were totally justified based on the virtue of "Loyalty to one's family"?

 

On that note, how can you say he has no virtue, when we don't even know yet what the virtues are? We know the following:

 

Honorspren choose those who Protect.

Highspren choose those to uphold the letter of the Law.

Whatever Wyndle is likes the Ideal, "I will remember those who have been forgotten."

Liespren choose those whose virtue is nothing more virtuous than an incredibly convoluted grasp of reality (i.e. "true lies" like Yalb's brags or the social fabrication that is human society or Shallan's duplicitous nature).

 

So that's three concrete Virtues we've got, only one of which is beyond a doubt "virtuous" and one vague one that seems pretty virtuous. If you can be a Radiant for killing innocent after innocent because an unjust and manipulated law demands it, or for a lifetime of lies, why are you so certain that all the other six "virtues" presuppose the inability to be a jerk?

 

Lastly, there was nothing more honorable about what Adolin did to Sadeas than what Relis tried to do to Adolin, and we've got this.

 

 

Q:  What would Willshapers think of Adolin killing Sadeas?

 

A:  They'd be OK with it.

 

Source.

 

So, whichever virtue the Willshapers exemplify, they don't care if you ambush an inferior opponent and kill him because he physically assaulted and dishonored your family.

 

New theory: Relis is a Willshaper.

[Guest]

We do know the virtues the orders are looking for.

 

Windrunner: Protective and Leadership

Bondsmith: Pious and Guiding

Edgedancer: Loving and Healing

Truthwatcher: Learned and Giving

Lightweaver: Creative and Honest

Elsecaller: Wisdom and Careful

Dustbringer: Brave and Obedient

Skybreaker: Just and Confident

Willshaper: Resolute and Builder

Stoneward: Dependable and Ressourceful

 

Each sprens are looking after individual exhibiting these virtues and being selfish and cruel cannot coexist with any of them. I you believe it can, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

Yes, murder can be considered acceptable by some orders (Willshaper, Dustbringers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers), but not any kind of murder. The major difference between Relis/Sadeas and Adolin is the first are looking after their own person and their own advancement whereas Adolin is looking after his family safety. Now we can argue as to whether killing Sadeas was the best way to achieve this goal, but the fact remains Adolin only did it after Sadeas openly threatened to undermined Dalinar and to never stop until he wins. It is only then that he snaps. Also, Adolin has never acted selfishly: all of his actions were triggered by his desire to either protect his family or to obey to his father. He thus served a higher purpose then himself.

 

Sadeas killed 6000 men to get rid of a rival and set the basis of his future reign as king of Alethkar. Worst, Sadeas never shown any regret for any action he ever did.

 

Now Relis had no cause to do what he did except for an inflated ego and a bruised pride. No matter if we agree of disagree on Adolin's behavior during his previous duels, the facts remains he did not deserved to be crippled in an unfair fight for it.

 

The Willshapers embodied resoluteness, headstrong people who never stop until they reach their goal. However, the goal in question must be a valid one. Crippling an opponent because he hurt your feelings is not a valid cause. Murdering a criminal responsible for the death of 6000 people openly threatening the person you loved the most in life is a valid one.

 

The Dustbringers embodied braveness, reckless people who do not back down from what needs to be done despite the cost. Sadeas needed to die. The law did not provide any legal mean to prosecute him. Having the courage to take the matter into your own hands, no matter the consequences to yourself, would be rewarded by this order. Adolin did just that. We can agree or disagree as to whether he should or should not have killed Sadeas the way he did and when he did it, but we can't disagree over the fact Sadeas deserved the death penalty.

 

Now back to Relis: Adolin did not deserved the punishment he was trying to enforce on him. Not even close. Being an arrogant show-of does not call for the death penalty. No order would ever be fine with this finality.

 

As for Szeth, he commited murders because the owner of his oath stone demanded it. Is this stupid? Yes, but Szeth utterly believes he has to obey and it is driving him mad. The fact also remains Szeth has not killed anyone by his own volition: he did it to withhold the law of his country. Is it lame? Yes, but Szeth is completely destroyed by it, just like Dalinar was destroyed by his years of being the Blackthorn.

 

Now can Relis grow into a worthy person? I suppose so. Everyone can, at some point, but I doubt he will. To become a proto-Radiant, he'll need to go through a massive make-over.

 

Bottom line is it is not the actions that matters, but the why. The journey matters, not the end result.

 

Edit: The main difference between Allomancy and Radiants is Radiants are actually chosen whereas Allomancy is inherited. Radiants have to withhold certain ideals, Allomancers, not.

Edited October 20, 2014 by maxal

[Oudeis he/him]

I am personally going to only address the points about my issue, which is the idea that you don't have to be good to be a Radiant. Enough other people are arguing about Relis, they do not need my assistance. This is not meant as a concession to that point, I just think it's immaterial.

 

Those are all from a chart that went through the Hierocracy since it was last used by the actual Radiants. In the Ars Arcanum, it's immediately followed by the message that it's probably inaccurate.

 

Even then, many of them absolutely allow you to be a total jerk while still fitting. "Pious and Guiding," well, that fits Sadeas to a tee. The Alethi belief in the Almighty holds the destruction of your rivals as a religious obligation. By leading his men in a clever plan to lead to his chief rival's death, Sadeas exemplified both of them. "Pious" only means "don't be a jerk" if the God you're serving is a kind and gentle God like the New Testament one. A God like the Almighty, for whom the highest Calling is to be a soldier, or even the Old Testament God, would reward the slaughtering of a rival and all of his armies as a holy act.

 

"Wise and careful". Again, you have to assume that there's only one form of "wisdom" to assume this precludes being a jerk. You might personally believe that it's wise to be kind to everyone around you, but that's not the sum total of wisdom. You can't make the call that no one can be both selfish and wise. Taravangian. He's very careful. He's also got a lot of knowledge. He truly believes his way is the best, perhaps the only way for humanity to emerge after the Everstorm with the potential to survive. It requires him to literally conquer the world. He is intelligent thanks to the boon, but beyond this, he is also wise. He understands the people around him, knows their inner workings well enough to manipulate them. Even on a day of normal intelligence, he's still able to conquer a land and manipulate Szeth, thanks to his wisdom. Even if I were to stipulate that true wisdom requires you to be kind and gentle, we know that you don't have to be perfect in a virtue to be a Radiant. Kaladin is still working his way to become a leader and a protector, he even stumbled enough to lose his Bond, and yet he was still a Radiant. You get better at the "virtues" as you progress through the Ideals. Saying someone is less than 100% perfectly wise is not the same as saying they cannot be a Radiant.

 

And Shallan. Creative, fine. But she's supposed to be honest. She lies to literally everyone, up to and including herself. She has advanced to the Third Ideal, at least, without being able to tell herself what happened the night she killed her own mother. Obviously, this chart has some significant flaws in it. If this chart is your entire basis, I think you have to agree that it's not an ironclad argument.

 

So far, the evidence I've noticed in support of your theory is the chart and the fact that we've only seen good Radiants. I have addressed both of these issues, in my humble opinion I think I've done a decent job of doing so. I will confess that this whole thread has gotten rather... lengthy, and I may have missed a point you've made in other posts. If there's a point I haven't addressed, please direct my attention to it and I will try to rectify the mistake. I also await your reply to the points I've made here.

[Aleksiel]

Shallan basically killed Pattern with her lies and only after her confession she killed her father at the end of WoK does her spren re-appear. So she's not the best example, plus from what we know she's supposed to be self-aware, which is different from being honest with everyone. Wyndle said he wouldn't have picked Lift if the Circle didn't demand so, thus she isn't a good example either. At any rate, there aren't any Radiants yet, so just because we assume all surgebinders we know of will get there, doesn't mean it'll happen.

 

There are different types of good people. I don't know why honor is brought so often in this topic when Kaladin is the only one who's supposed to be honorable. Being honorable or honest doesn't make you good. Lying doesn't make you evil. The world is not black and white

 

So far the only thing that seems certain is the proto-Radiant having some specific virtues and attitude that can attract a certain type of spren, then to say the Words. In my current understanding all Radiants are good in different ways; they represent different approaches towards goodness, different philosophies and morality. They aren't unprincipled, though the principles of the different Orders seem contradictional.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Aleksiel

[waynegrantham]

Awesome topic, took me an hour to read it all. More words in this topic that all of SA so far?

This "topic" is my favorite scene so far. The TENSION and when Kal enters the ring....whooosh WOW! Lots of great ones, but the reader suspense and expectation here.

Perfect B.S.

Ready for more.

[Guest]

Awesome topic, took me an hour to read it all. More words in this topic that all of SA so far?

This "topic" is my favorite scene so far. The TENSION and when Kal enters the ring....whooosh WOW! Lots of great ones, but the reader suspense and expectation here.

Perfect B.S.

Ready for more.

 

Yeah, I think it is the longest discussion we have had on the duel

 

 

I am personally going to only address the points about my issue, which is the idea that you don't have to be good to be a Radiant. Enough other people are arguing about Relis, they do not need my assistance. This is not meant as a concession to that point, I just think it's immaterial.

 

The reason we are arguing about Relis is because this thread was initially about him and as to whether him hearing his Blade screaming was a sign of Radiant ability. I would not have mention him in our previous discussion if not for this fact

 

 

Those are all from a chart that went through the Hierocracy since it was last used by the actual Radiants. In the Ars Arcanum, it's immediately followed by the message that it's probably inaccurate.

 

True. It is quite possible the information in the Ars Arcanum is incomplete or erroneous. However, the list of attributes have been fitting very nicely to the Radiants so far presented. I believe that whereas some of them may be misleading most of them are probably accurate enough.

 

 

Even then, many of them absolutely allow you to be a total jerk while still fitting. "Pious and Guiding," well, that fits Sadeas to a tee. The Alethi belief in the Almighty holds the destruction of your rivals as a religious obligation. By leading his men in a clever plan to lead to his chief rival's death, Sadeas exemplified both of them. "Pious" only means "don't be a jerk" if the God you're serving is a kind and gentle God like the New Testament one. A God like the Almighty, for whom the highest Calling is to be a soldier, or even the Old Testament God, would reward the slaughtering of a rival and all of his armies as a holy act.

 

You could be right, if we consider pious is solely related to the application of one's Faith. However, in the case of Dalinar, I believe it is more his notion of self-sacrifice while trying to maintain an impossibly high code of honor that defines him as pious. Sadeas is not pious as Sadeas thinks of himself first and before all. He may sometimes appear pious in his following of the Alethki ideals, but is sole motivation is his personal gain. A selfish and cruel person may worship an equally cruel and selfish God, but a selfish and cruel person would never be able to put himself last, which kind of defies the entire notion of pious. Or this is the way I read and understand it. What the adulated God  may reward or not is irrelevant as it is not him that decides who gets to become a Radiant, but the sprens. So far, all the chosen individual have been shown to put themselves last in at least one instances.

 

 

"Wise and careful". Again, you have to assume that there's only one form of "wisdom" to assume this precludes being a jerk. You might personally believe that it's wise to be kind to everyone around you, but that's not the sum total of wisdom. You can't make the call that no one can be both selfish and wise. Taravangian. He's very careful. He's also got a lot of knowledge. He truly believes his way is the best, perhaps the only way for humanity to emerge after the Everstorm with the potential to survive. It requires him to literally conquer the world. He is intelligent thanks to the boon, but beyond this, he is also wise. He understands the people around him, knows their inner workings well enough to manipulate them. Even on a day of normal intelligence, he's still able to conquer a land and manipulate Szeth, thanks to his wisdom. Even if I were to stipulate that true wisdom requires you to be kind and gentle, we know that you don't have to be perfect in a virtue to be a Radiant. Kaladin is still working his way to become a leader and a protector, he even stumbled enough to lose his Bond, and yet he was still a Radiant. You get better at the "virtues" as you progress through the Ideals. Saying someone is less than 100% perfectly wise is not the same as saying they cannot be a Radiant.

 

This is the one counter-argument I expected as I thought of it myself. Taranvangian is a mystery to me and I tend to see him as a villain as he had convinces himself the slaughtering of thousands is a necessary sacrifice to save the few. He does indeed appear selfless as he does not seem to be putting his personal gain before all. However, I believe his logic is twisted and we may find the Elsecaller's first oath will completely contradicts his behavior.

 

Or it could you are right and the Elsecallers are the one order that defies the rule and harbor individual with a looser morality. After all, Jasnah did murder these thugs with little more reason then the desire to teach a lesson to Shallan. Brandon have identify this crime as much worst than Adolin who impulsively murdered a criminal in order to protect his father. Jasnah does keep a team of assassins which indicates the existence of a ruthless side to her personality.

 

As for Kaladin struggling, I do believe being a Radiant means struggling. The oaths are hard to keep and hard to work around. Kaladin has learned the hard way as he finally understood he just cannot kill to protect unless the threat is a direct one. However, Kaladin is never selfish nor cruel and if he can sometimes be confused, he still remains a decent person.

 

 

And Shallan. Creative, fine. But she's supposed to be honest. She lies to literally everyone, up to and including herself. She has advanced to the Third Ideal, at least, without being able to tell herself what happened the night she killed her own mother. Obviously, this chart has some significant flaws in it. If this chart is your entire basis, I think you have to agree that it's not an ironclad argument.

 

Pattern told us it is Shallan's ability to create powerful lies that drew him to her. I do not believe lies meant lying. I believe he referred to her talent to create masterful illusions, which can be interpreted as lies as they distorts the reality. Lightweavers also progress through Radianhood by telling truths and we reason to believe the more they advanced, the more profound the truth as to be. Admitting she has killed her mother is the most powerful truth Shallan has hidden so far. I have theorized Shallan's last truth will be about her future and her love life as she will be forced to admit her feelings.

 

The chart works with Shallan.

 

 

So far, the evidence I've noticed in support of your theory is the chart and the fact that we've only seen good Radiants. I have addressed both of these issues, in my humble opinion I think I've done a decent job of doing so. I will confess that this whole thread has gotten rather... lengthy, and I may have missed a point you've made in other posts. If there's a point I haven't addressed, please direct my attention to it and I will try to rectify the mistake. I also await your reply to the points I've made here.

 

I may have missed points I made myself I do strongly support my theory the attributes are the basis upon which sprens select their knights. However, I do admit the Elsecallers seem to have a particularly low sense of honor and they could be the one exception where people of questionable morality could be made knights. I do not see it much with the other orders, even if the Cultivation related orders tend to be more loose has they consider murder acceptable, under a certain set of conditions.

[Oudeis he/him]

The reason we are arguing about Relis is because this thread was initially about him and as to whether him hearing his Blade screaming was a sign of Radiant ability. I would not have mention him in our previous discussion if not for this fact

That wasn't quite what I meant. I mean, I'm not going to justify his actions or explain why he might be a great person. Because my point is, it's irrelevant. We are discussing whether his blade screaming at him was a sign of Radiant ability, and my contention is that he can be a Radiant whether or not he's a nice guy.

 

True. It is quite possible the information in the Ars Arcanum is incomplete or erroneous. However, the list of attributes have been fitting very nicely to the Radiants so far presented. I believe that whereas some of them may be misleading most of them are probably accurate enough.

 

Eh... how has Jasnah been "wise or careful"? And if Honesty can be considered a "mastery of lying" and Just can be considered "sociopathic and homicidal adherence to an unjust law" then I think "close enough" isn't close enough to say "there's no wiggle room to allow someone to be a jerk". If this is still half the basis for your entire argument... I think you have to admit it's an incredibly shaky basis.

 

You could be right, if we consider pious is solely related to the application of one's Faith. However, in the case of Dalinar, I believe it is more his notion of self-sacrifice while trying to maintain an impossibly high code of honor that defines him as pious. Sadeas is not pious as Sadeas thinks of himself first and before all. He may sometimes appear pious in his following of the Alethki ideals, but is sole motivation is his personal gain. A selfish and cruel person may worship an equally cruel and selfish God, but a selfish and cruel person would never be able to put himself last, which kind of defies the entire notion of pious. Or this is the way I read and understand it. What the adulated God  may reward or not is irrelevant as it is not him that decides who gets to become a Radiant, but the sprens. So far, all the chosen individual have been shown to put themselves last in at least one instances.

...Dude, you're simply utterly redefining the word Pious now. Piety means exactly one thing. If you're going to tell me that you're personally redefining the word, and that the metaphysics of Roshar now adhere to your personal redefinition... well, I can't argue that. If you're going to argue that your personal definitions trump real definitions, then by that definition, you'll always be right. I hope you can appreciate, however, that I have no obligation to accept your personal definitions. You're absolutely allowed to believe whatever you wish, and more power to you, but I hope you can understand that you won't be swaying many people.

 

 

 

Pattern told us it is Shallan's ability to create powerful lies that drew him to her. I do not believe lies meant lying. I believe he referred to her talent to create masterful illusions, which can be interpreted as lies as they distorts the reality. Lightweavers also progress through Radianhood by telling truths and we reason to believe the more they advanced, the more profound the truth as to be. Admitting she has killed her mother is the most powerful truth Shallan has hidden so far. I have theorized Shallan's last truth will be about her future and her love life as she will be forced to admit her feelings.

...But... Shallan wasn't born with the power to create illusions. Her bond to Pattern gave her the power to create illusions. So, you're saying he was attracted to her because he had already bonded to her?

And what about Yalb? He wasn't crafting an illusion when he bragged about his time in Kharbranth, he was just straight-up lying, and Pattern loved it.

Also, you think "admitting her feelings" is a bigger truth than "I killed both of my parents"? That's... um, an interesting interpretation?

EDIT: A quote from Darkness himself. "Goodness is irrelevant."

I'd like to point out that Szeth, who wasn't at all good, is apparently a perfect Skybreaker. A "good" person would look at a law telling him "you have to slaughter hundreds of innocents" and say, this is a terrible law, I am not going to do that.

So, of the Radiants we've seen, Szeth, and you admit to Jasnah, are bad people. Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, and Lift are basically decent. Probably Renarin is as well, though it's hard to say, seeing as we don't have a point of view. This is far from proof that the other 3 Orders have to be paragons of virtue.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Outis

[Aleksiel]

I can't agree with Jasnah being a bad person, but you're entitled to your own opinion. If she's not wise, I don't know who is. She's careful about her research, the way she speaks and acts. Overall I do think she matches nicely her supposed attributes. I really see no point in discussing which morality is better than another morality, which philosophy is the best and so on. That's a personal thing. And don't forget the AA in a in-world thing that could be incorrect, so don't rely too much on it. It's been millenniums since the Heralds were around and who knows how long since the Day of Recreance  Everything's myths and legends. Even the in-world WoR was written 200 years after it, so it's not completely credible. 

 

Of course you can be a Radiant without being nice. Storms, Kaladin doesn't really come off as a nice guy outside Bridge Four. However, he's the reason Relis's blade awoke and screamed, there's a WoB on this I believe, and we know Ren's blade screamed when he touched it, so it's a surgebinder's thing and I see no reason to believe Relis is currently showing any signs of attracting a spren. His blade doesn't normally scream, else he'd had been like Ren and have difficulties with his Blade.

[Guest]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I mean, I'm not going to justify his actions or explain why he might be a great person. Because my point is, it's irrelevant. We are discussing whether his blade screaming at him was a sign of Radiant ability, and my contention is that he can be a Radiant whether or not he's a nice guy.

 

We have determined a long time ago Relis hears the spren screaming because he Kaladin touched his blade. Period. We have a WoB that confirms it. Relis is not a proto-Radiant and has no Radiant ability. This is reinforced by Relis being overall not the kind of person that we have seen attract sprens. He cannot be a Radiant because he does not fit the mold, any mold.

 

 

 

Eh... how has Jasnah been "wise or careful"? And if Honesty can be considered a "mastery of lying" and Just can be considered "sociopathic and homicidal adherence to an unjust law" then I think "close enough" isn't close enough to say "there's no wiggle room to allow someone to be a jerk". If this is still half the basis for your entire argument... I think you have to admit it's an incredibly shaky basis.

 

If Jasnah is not "wise and careful" then I dunno what she is. She still got to work on the careful part, but so does Kaladin who has to work on being a leader. Shallan needs to work on being honest and Dalinar has to work on being guiding. They all have to work some more on themselves, but the fact remains they are being driven by unselfish goals and have been seen to put themselves behind as they strove to be more wise, more protective, more creative and more pious.

 

Jasnah is not a jerk. She has a loser morality then most, but she is not a jerk. She would not trap an innocent into a duel for death just because he ego was stamped on.

 

 

 

...Dude, you're simply utterly redefining the word Pious now. Piety means exactly one thing. If you're going to tell me that you're personally redefining the word, and that the metaphysics of Roshar now adhere to your personal redefinition... well, I can't argue that. If you're going to argue that your personal definitions trump real definitions, then by that definition, you'll always be right. I hope you can appreciate, however, that I have no obligation to accept your personal definitions. You're absolutely allowed to believe whatever you wish, and more power to you, but I hope you can understand that you won't be swaying many people.

 

Dalinar attracted the Stormfather by trying to reinforce the values presented within the Ways of Kings which is analogous to a Bible and can thus be linked to a religion. What is religion by definition? A set of belief and moral rules that linked people together and the Ways of Kings is just that. That is why I believe beong "pious" does not have to be linked to Vorinism or to any official religion, in the context of Rosharian life. The sprens would have bonded someone who'd follow a despicable religion.

 

 

...But... Shallan wasn't born with the power to create illusions. Her bond to Pattern gave her the power to create illusions. So, you're saying he was attracted to her because he had already bonded to her?

 

You do not need to create actual illusions with light to be creative. I meant that Shallan was already good at creating alternate realities what felt real, no matter if she used only paper and ink or her imagination, the concept remains.

 

 

EDIT: A quote from Darkness himself. "Goodness is irrelevant."

 

 

Darkness is insane.

 

 

So, of the Radiants we've seen, Szeth, and you admit to Jasnah, are bad people. Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, and Lift are basically decent. Probably Renarin is as well, though it's hard to say, seeing as we don't have a point of view. This is far from proof that the other 3 Orders have to be paragons of virtue.

 

I did not say Jasnah was a bad person, but she does have a lose sense of morality. Szeth has been brainwashed so I am reluctant to call him bad. Radiant do not have to be paragon of virtue, but they need to embrace SOME virtue, which Relis doesn't.

 

 

Of course you can be a Radiant without being nice. Storms, Kaladin doesn't really come off as a nice guy outside Bridge Four. However, he's the reason Relis's blade awoke and screamed, there's a WoB on this I believe, and we know Ren's blade screamed when he touched it, so it's a surgebinder's thing and I see no reason to believe Relis is currently showing any signs of attracting a spren. His blade doesn't normally scream, else he'd had been like Ren and have difficulties with his Blade.

 

Well, Kaladin may not always come out as nice, but he is embodeing the virtue of protecting. He would so anything to protect the others and that by itself is sufficient. He has this drive we have seen in ALL Radiants, except Renarin.

 

Can a Radiant be jealous? Of course.

Can a Radiant have a lose sense of morality? Of course.

Can a Radiant put his own self and his own personal interests once and before all? NO.

Does a Radiant need to embodied certain virtues? YES.

 

Of course, everyone is free to agree to disagree, but I do think you need to fit a certain mold to be a Radiant. Relis is not it, neither is Elhokar, not yet anyway.

[Oudeis he/him]

Like I said. Since you've said that you will define the words by your own personal lexicon, there is nothing I can say which will change your mind. You of course have the right to believe whatever you wish. I respectfully bow out of this conversation.

[Guest]

Like I said. Since you've said that you will define the words by your own personal lexicon, there is nothing I can say which will change your mind. You of course have the right to believe whatever you wish. I respectfully bow out of this conversation.

 

On my side, I feel you did not try to understand or even read my argumentation. Words can have different meaning and interpretation, especially since we are reading them from an imperfect an incomplete chart. Perhaps it is me being French that triggers some of my thoughts as the French language does present the opportunity to use words in different ways. That is quite frustrating, but I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. There is indeed nothing you could say that would convince a piece of crap like Relis could ever be chosen to be Radiant.

 

I guess we will have to wait for Brandon to prove either one of us wrong.

[Oudeis he/him]

I don't believe it's a fair criticism to say that I didn't read what you wrote. Up until this last post, when I disengaged, I quoted you extensively and responded to you point-by-point. Claiming now that my problem is that I simply "didn't try to understand" you is more than a little insulting.

 

The fact remains, you've decided that piety means something with a tangential-at-best relation to the literal definition of the word. If this will continue to be a large part of your argument, there simply isn't anything more for me to say. You're never going to convince me that Mr. Sanderson meant your personal definition rather than the actual one, and I'm apparently not going to convince you that redefining words is a poor basis for a scholarly debate.

 

I've said this before. As Mr. Sanderson once told me, you are the director of the story in your own mind. If believing something makes you enjoy the story a little bit more, more power to you. If you want to believe that only kind, gentle people can be Radiants, you are 100% entitled to believe that. The more people who like his books, the better. I don't believe you'll convince many other people with the arguments you've presented, but you shouldn't let that stop your own enjoyment of the book. I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

[Guest]

I don't believe it's a fair criticism to say that I didn't read what you wrote. Up until this last post, when I disengaged, I quoted you extensively and responded to you point-by-point. Claiming now that my problem is that I simply "didn't try to understand" you is more than a little insulting.

 

I did not mean it as an insult, but I understand why you would see it this way. Your last post had a very edgy feel to it. I felt some the phrasing used discredit every point I had been trying to make as if it was not worthy of consideration. However, I should not have accused you of not reading nor understanding my point. It was quite rude of me and for this I will apologize.

 

For the rest, I still do not get why my argumentation is so fallacious.

 

Pious means an earnest to fulfill religious obligations, I have stated the Ways of Kings by itself has a very religious feel to it and that Dalinar's obstinacy to maintain the high code of honor it defines is extremely akin to a priest struggling to obey to the precept of the Bible.

 

You are probably going to think I am deluded for associating the Way of Kings to a religious belief as it is not an official religion and it does not call to a God directly. To this I will respond the sprens do not care about Vorinism or any man made religion. They would not give a damnation that Sadeas appears pious in his devotion to Vorinism. However, Bondsmith sprens do care about the ability to maintain a high code of honor despite adversity, which is exactly what Dalinar is doing. And it is exactly what Sadeas is not doing. Hence, I believe Dalinar can be define as pious in his observance to the Ways of Kings.

 

I sincerely do not understand where it is I am twisting the literal meaning of word pious using this way of thinking.

 

 

I've said this before. As Mr. Sanderson once told me, you are the director of the story in your own mind. If believing something makes you enjoy the story a little bit more, more power to you. If you want to believe that only kind, gentle people can be Radiants, you are 100% entitled to believe that. The more people who like his books, the better. I don't believe you'll convince many other people with the arguments you've presented, but you shouldn't let that stop your own enjoyment of the book. I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

 

I have never stated only kind and gentle person could be chosen to be Radiants. I have however stated that certain kind of persons would never be chosen, individuals such as Relis or Sadeas that have been shown to be incapable of acting outside their personal interests and who see unwarranted murder of innocents as a way to achieve their goals.

 

You are right I do tend to see Radiant as overall good people as they do have to maintain oaths and they do have to embody certain virtues. I never claim they were paramount of all virtue, but they are paramount of their specific virtue, such as protecting for Kaladin.

 

You are also right in stating thinking Relis could be make a Radiant would definitely diminish my enjoyment of SA as this thought only makes me want to puke. However, if it is how Brandon wishes to write his story, I will bow to the master.

[Oudeis he/him]

I might owe you a bit of an apology, since it seems I may have misunderstood half of what you said. It was not at first clear that you meant Dalinar was being pious because he had a religious devotion to the book. When I first questioned this point, I still misinterpreted your answer. My apologies.

 

However, the second half stands in opposition. You say that Sadeas cannot be pious, because he is selfish. There is no part of the definition of the word pious that precludes selfishness. This is entirely a redefinition on your part. If you worship your God, and he tells you to be selfish and self-serving, that these things will bring you rewards, and you obey his commands, you are pious. Your personal objections aside, there is very little wiggle room in the definition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the definition of piété is "Vertu qui dispose à rendre à Dieu l'honneur qui lui est dû par les actes extérieurs de la religion.". Loosely, a virtue whereby you honor God by outwardly performing religious acts. If the Alethi belief in the Almighty commands that you defeat your foes, crush your enemies, build up your own empire, and pursue your own goals, there is nothing which prevents you from working with Ardents to attain higher Glories and tricking your political rivals into getting slain at the hands of your common enemy, and still being perfectly pious.

 

I believe the rest of your post is merely re-stating points you've tried making before, which I or someone else has already rebutted.

 

I have however stated that certain kind of persons would never be chosen, individuals such as Relis or Sadeas that have been shown to be incapable of acting outside their personal interests and who see unwarranted murder of innocents as a way to achieve their goals.

 

...Someone like Szeth, for example.

 

I like to believe I have given every factual point you've brought up the consideration it deserves, whether I agree with it or not. But yes, if you're going to present your own snap judgements about the motivations of a minor character we never get to see the viewpoint of, or offer your own personal redefinitions of words as the only possible interpretation... then I'm sorry, but I don't think those tactics warrant consideration in a scholarly debate. If you would simply like to inform us all of your personal beliefs and let it stand, that is one thing. Once you try to tell us that this is something which must be an actual fundamental truth of the cosmere... I'm afraid the bar for proving that is a bit higher.

[Guest]

I might owe you a bit of an apology, since it seems I may have misunderstood half of what you said. It was not at first clear that you meant Dalinar was being pious because he had a religious devotion to the book. When I first questioned this point, I still misinterpreted your answer. My apologies.

 

It's alright. I must admit my initial post was not all that clear, even I get confused when I read it I think it is best if we just drop it out and move on to a more constructive discussion

 

 

 

However, the second half stands in opposition. You say that Sadeas cannot be pious, because he is selfish. There is no part of the definition of the word pious that precludes selfishness. This is entirely a redefinition on your part. If you worship your God, and he tells you to be selfish and self-serving, that these things will bring you rewards, and you obey his commands, you are pious. Your personal objections aside, there is very little wiggle room in the definition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the definition of piété is "Vertu qui dispose à rendre à Dieu l'honneur qui lui est dû par les actes extérieurs de la religion.". Loosely, a virtue whereby you honor God by outwardly performing religious acts. If the Alethi belief in the Almighty commands that you defeat your foes, crush your enemies, build up your own empire, and pursue your own goals, there is nothing which prevents you from working with Ardents to attain higher Glories and tricking your political rivals into getting slain at the hands of your common enemy, and still being perfectly pious.

 

I do agree worshiping a selfish God that encourages his followers to be self-serving would enable one to be equally pious and selfish. However, the very notion of pious where ones completely forgets itself in order to fulfill external obligations linked to a particular religion does in a way precludes selfishness... If you are forgetting yourself in order to strictly follow the precepts of your religion you then you cannot put your desire and whims first. You cannot thus be selfish, that is unless the commands of your God directly aligns with your personal wishes, to this I would answer that yes your piousness does not exclude your selfishness, but it would be a very strange situation as how do you judge selfishness in a world that expects you to behave this way?

 

However, we are talking about spren bonding individuals.... As I mentioned in my previous post, sprens do not care about men-made religion, but they care about ones ability to respect the oaths their order requires. Now, I will theorized here Bondsmiths are probably pure Honor, just like Truthwatchers are probably pure Cultivation. You may disagree with this affirmation, but you cannot disagree there is a very strong portion of honor within the Bondsmiths. That being said, Bondsmiths are to follow a very strict honor code: it is thus required its chosen knights to be pious enough to be observe the precept of a religion-like code.

 

I thus believe Bondsmiths are not chosen for their obedience to a specific religion, but for their ability to apply the precepts of honor, despite all. Therefore, a selfish individual worshiping a self-serving God may be pious but would not be an interesting candidate as there is nothing to prove this individual would do great when placed in the situation where it has to obey to a code that violates its inner desires. Bottom line is it is easy to obey to commands you agree with, to follow a code you agree with: it is an entire different thing to do the same with a code that violates everything your world stands for.

 

Actually, in French, the proper word translation for pious would be pieux and it can be used outside the context of religion, such as to define the actions of a person with higher motives such as humanitarians.

 

 

...Someone like Szeth, for example.

 

I like to believe I have given every factual point you've brought up the consideration it deserves, whether I agree with it or not. But yes, if you're going to present your own snap judgements about the motivations of a minor character we never get to see the viewpoint of, or offer your own personal redefinitions of words as the only possible interpretation... then I'm sorry, but I don't think those tactics warrant consideration in a scholarly debate. If you would simply like to inform us all of your personal beliefs and let it stand, that is one thing. Once you try to tell us that this is something which must be an actual fundamental truth of the cosmere... I'm afraid the bar for proving that is a bit higher.

 

Szeth is a particular case and I am unsure as to what to make of him...  However, I do not believe we have seen him act selfishly. He consistently blamed every individual he had to kill to achieve his goal for their deaths: incompetent, poor fighter, any excuse was acceptable to justify why he had to murder them. Szeth has not, despite all, ever killed anyone that did not directly opposed him in his fulfilling of his orders. We could argue he was thus following the law of his country to the point of being blind.

 

It is quite sad when you think of it.

 

Now, the part of your post about my "snap judgements" is more or less insulting as it suggests I do not think before I write, which sometimes happens, but rarely when I write something lengthy.  I will take it your intentions were else, so I will not dwindle uselessly on it. I will however admit I sometimes stumble as to how I should phrase my thoughts properly and it does not always come out right, but I do believe I have improved myself greatly as a poster since my initial posts a few months back. Part of the reason I took so long to answer you was the fact I needed to think this through and I felt I should not write while feeling emotional. It is sometimes better to let things rest, a lesson I am actively trying to learn.

 

Also, I do think I have argued consequently as to how I saw Relis. He is a minor character, but he happened to be the topic of this thread. It has led to quite a bit of interesting discussion. As for my "own personal interpretations", I do believe I have explained what I meant in a way that respects the linguistic of a specific word. It is quite unfair to claim my views are unfounded, but you are, of course, entitled to entirely disagree.