Relis hears a voice

[Moogle]

Renarin did not have his plate when he stepped into the ring and he sure was not threat as he could barely fend the blows. Now, we know why he came out this bad, the screaming and all, but from the duelists point-of-vue, Renarin is so much below their skill level fighting with him does not present much of a challenge.

 

Ah, thank you on the correction about Shardplate.

 

But... so, what, the Shardbearers are supposed to let Renarin whack them with his sword and do nothing to stop him? Were they supposed to actually cut him and disable him so the highjudge would call him out? Renarin should have never entered the ring, and when he did and found he was outmatched he should have surrendered.

 

Adolin made a mistake when setting the rules for his duel. He should have specified two, but it was clear he meant two. Relis knew he meant two, but took advantage of his bad wording to bring forward 4. A four against one fight is not a fight anymore, it is a beating down and they wagered Adolin would go for it as surrendering means house Kohlin losing ALL of their shards. The stakes are huge and the pressure on Adolin's shoulder must have been great. He had to give it a try.

 

He did not have to give it a try and cripple himself. Nobody could reasonably expect him to go ahead with that fight. It was stupid, and he recognizes that fact and tells himself that it was stupid.

 

As to House Kholin losing all their Shards, they would have done that when he inevitably lost anyways.

 

If the plot didn't demand Adolin succeed, if this happened in real life where there was no plot saving him, Adolin would be a cripple, probably along with Renarin. I'm not sure calling Adolin stupid conveys just how bad his decision making was here.

 

He did try to surrender. He yelled he yielded, but nobody heard him. Then he tried to signal the judge, but his arm was slammed down. The third time, Relis threatened to injured Renarin if he did surrender.

 

His voice was muffled by his helmet, so you can't expect the highlady to have heard him. She also didn't see his arm slammed down quite possibly. The third time, he could have surrendered, as he was looking straight at the judge. He didn't.

 

Both Dalinar and Adolin remarks on the judge being bought. She could have ended the fight the moment she felt it went too far, but it was clear as she looked away she would not do no such thing. When Adolin started losing plate parts, right after Renarin step in, she should have ended it. Dalinar tried to make her end it, but she wouldn't clearly stating: "Your son is not incapacitated" which means, he is not crippled yet.

 

And Renarin and Adolin could have surrendered. They didn't have to rely on the highjudge, even if she was bought. I was unable to find a quote where Dalinar remarked on the highjudge being bribed, can you provide it?

 

The fight against Salinor and the fight against Relit were two different fights. Relis was not mad at Adolin beating Salinor, he was mad at him beating his cousin which he did by dragging the duel for over an hour. He did show off during this duel, slowly taking down every single part of Relit's armor until nothing held at all. He proved he was a much, much, much superior fighter and Relis did not like it. He called it humiliation: I call it winning.

 

Again, thank you for the correction... but this just proves my point even more. Adolin literally stood there for an hour, slowly beating Relit's cousin. That is entirely humiliation. That is a cat playing with its food. If you can't see why someone would be insulted by that, I'm not sure what to say. Wow, that makes Adolin look to actually be a huge jerk. Can you imagine being a parent watching your child get soundly humiliated like that and they get to take your family's priceless treasures? I would hate anyone who did that with a burning passion.

 

Adolin acting like a jerk? When did he ever acted like a jerk? It is more Relis and his crowd who where jerks, insulting Adolin and Dalinar just to provoke the former into and angry fit.

 

“You want your cousin’s Plate back?” Adolin asked quietly, meeting Relis’s eyes. “Fight me for it.”

“I won’t be goaded by you,” Relis said, tapping the center of Adolin’s breastplate. “I won’t let you pull me into another of your dueling farces.”

“Six Shards, Relis,” Adolin said. “Mine, those of my brother , Eranniv’s Plate, and your cousin’s Plate . I wager them all on a single bout. You and me.”

“You are a dunnard if you think I’ll agree to that,” Relis snapped.

“Too afraid?” Adolin asked.

“You’re beneath me, Kholin. These last two fights prove it. You don’t even know how to duel anymore— all you know are tricks.”

“Then you should be able to beat me easily.” Relis wavered, shifting from one foot to the other. Finally, he pointed at Adolin again. “You’re a bastard, Kholin. I know you fought my cousin to embarrass my father and myself. I refuse to be goaded.” He turned to leave.

Something spectacular, Adolin thought, glancing at Shallan. Father asked for fanfare. . . .

“If you’re afraid,” Adolin said, looking back to Relis, “you don’t have to duel me alone.”

 

Relis is a jerk, but so is Adolin.

 

Here we have Adolin, continually calling Relis a coward because he refuses to duel him. The aforementioned part where Adolin spent an hour humiliating someone in front of a crowd, the part where Adolin threatens to crush someone's throat for not giving up their Blade fast enough (and forcing the person to show fear in front of a crowd, humiliating them), basically any of his interactions with Sadeas, and frankly the throat-crushing part is enough for me to see Adolin in a somewhat questionable light.

 

Adolin's friendly with those he likes, and a huge jerk to those he has any reason to dislike.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Well, if Relis's cousin didn't want to be humiliated for an hour, he could have forfeited. You blame Adolin for not stopping the duel against four, because it was obvious he couldn't win, but you excuse Relis's cousin for letting his lost duel continue for a whole hour? How is that Adolin's fault? He did not stop his opponent from forfeiting.

 

On the other hand, Adolin engaged the four duelists partly because the plot demanded him to do so and it was reasonable to think he could chose to forfeit at any given moment. Adolin couldn't know he won't be allowed to yield. Don't blame him for other people's decisions. The quote you provided shows he was ready to stand two against one while the rules of the duel applied, aka him being able to surrender at any given point. Nowhere does Adolin even consider the possibility of ending up in a situation where his right to yield will be compromised. While his decision to engage his opponents wasn't thought through, it does not excuse the actions of his opponents that Adolin had no way of knowing beforehand. Yes, he knew they'd try to cripple him. He had no idea he won't be allowed to stop the duel when he had the right to do so. Adolin is the victim here, don't blame him for being set up and having his right to stop the duel taken away.

 

@Outis: As for Radiants being good people, that is not what I meant. One does not have to be a certain kind of good, but to show some virtues. Relis fails miserably on this account.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

Well, if Relis's cousin didn't want to be humiliated for an hour, he could have forfeited. You blame Adolin for not stopping the duel against four, because it was obvious he couldn't win, but you excuse Relis's cousin for letting his lost duel continue for a whole hour? How is that Adolin's fault? He did not stop his opponent from forfeiting.

 

I blame Adolin for not stopping the duel because he knew there was a high chance he'd be crippled. There was no such chance in the case of Adolin vs Relis' cousin.

 

As to why the cousin didn't surrender: beats me! Perhaps the rules of their duel did not allow forfeiting? Surrendering would carry its own shame in Alethi culture, which could also explain his opponent's reluctance to do so. Regardless, continuing to fight as Adolin did is not honorable. He could have saved his opponent some humiliation and ended the fight in a minute if he chose.

 

He was fighting to make a point (he can fight slow or long) and embarrass his opponent as a side-effect in order to goad the other members of the House into fighting him. This makes him, as a I said, a jerk. (Not that I disagree with his actions.)

 

On the other hand, Adolin engaged the four duelists partly because the plot demanded him to do so and it was reasonable to think he could chose to forfeit at any given moment. Adolin couldn't know he won't be allowed to yield.

 

Adolin was, plainly, allowed to yield. There would be no point to threatening Renarin to stop him from doing so if he couldn't in the first place. They made efforts to stop him, but if he signaled the highjudge, it would be over. This is made clear in the quote I provided.

 

Adolin is the victim here, don't blame him for being set up and having his right to stop the duel taken away.

 

Adolin is the one scheming with his father and the king to take away all the Shards of opposing Houses in order to gain control of the kingdom. Adolin is the one who proposed the spectacle of a duel so he could petition the king to let him duel Sadeas to the death. Adolin is the one who provoked his opponents by humiliating them so they'd want revenge and the chance to get back at him. Adolin is the one who, despite being overmatched, stepped into the ring. This was almost entirely on his head.

 

Expecting his opponents to just roll over and let him take their Shards is not reasonable.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest]

Ah, thank you on the correction about Shardplate.

 

But... so, what, the Shardbearers are supposed to let Renarin whack them with his sword and do nothing to stop him? Were they supposed to actually cut him and disable him so the highjudge would call him out? Renarin should have never entered the ring, and when he did and found he was outmatched he should have surrendered.

 

They could have disarm him easily. Considering Renarin's skill level at the time of this fight, it must not have been such a difficult task. 

 

 

He did not have to give it a try and cripple himself. Nobody could reasonably expect him to go ahead with that fight. It was stupid, and he recognizes that fact and tells himself that it was stupid.

 

As to House Kholin losing all their Shards, they would have done that when he inevitably lost anyways.

 

If the plot didn't demand Adolin succeed, if this happened in real life where there was no plot saving him, Adolin would be a cripple, probably along with Renarin. I'm not sure calling Adolin stupid conveys just how bad his decision making was here.

 

Adolin called himself stupid for not having specified the allowed number of opponents, not for going on with the fight. Adolin knew he had lost all of his family's shards at that moment, but he had to try. Give it a go. Lose with some fashion. Keep his head high and not let himself being beaten.

 

Besides, even Elhokar and Dalinar thought surrendering without a fight was not a good idea. It goes against Alethki's tradition to just surrender. How is it Adolin should have made that call?

 

Now let's move to another part of your post...

 

 

 

As to why the cousin didn't surrender: beats me! Perhaps the rules of their duel did not allow forfeiting? Surrendering would carry its own shame in Alethi culture, which could also explain his opponent's reluctance to do so. Regardless, continuing to fight as Adolin did is not honorable. He could have saved his opponent some humiliation and ended the fight in a minute if he chose.

 

The rules of dueling always leave room for surrendering. There is nothing that indicate the duel between Adolin and Relit happened under abnormal circumstances. You claim here Relit could not have surrender as it would have brought shame on his family, but Adolin should have surrendered the moment he found out he has been out-thought?

 

I think you underestimate the things at risk during the 4 on 1 duel which is all the Kohlin's family shards including Adolin's own. It is true the second he saw the four shardbearers, Adolin knew he had lost. Now try to imagine his inner panic, which is quite clear by the way he was frantically running around the arena trying to think of a strategy. It is only Zahel's intervention that calm him enough to give him a boost to actually put up a decent fight.

 

That being said, you also underestimate Adolin's mental state at the time. He had just step into an arena without his good luck charm, which disturbed him greatly as he was not able to perform his ritual according to plan, only to see he had to fight not two but four opponents. He has been stupid and because of him, his house will lose it all. This is entirely his fault. Of course he had to at least try. Everything depended on him in this dumb plan of Dalinar.

 

Sure, surrendering would have been safer, but all things considered, I do not think this was much an option for Adolin.

 

I blame Adolin for not stopping the duel because he knew there was a high chance he'd be crippled. There was no such chance in the case of Adolin vs Relis' cousin.

 

You are missing the fact Adolin did try to stop the duel. He tried, three times. His opponents would not let him and the last time, the threatened to injure poor Renarin if he did not give them what they wanted. What do they wanted? Punishment. Adolin has been upsetting their little world, so he had to pay with his life. I do agree with Aleksiel here, Adolin is the victim. He was picked on for winning duels. Adolin would have NEVER step into such an unbalance fight with three fellows to beat down an opponent. Gee, Adolin had issues killing a chasmfield during a hunt...

 

 

Adolin was, plainly, allowed to yield. There would be no point to threatening Renarin to stop him from doing so if he couldn't in the first place. They made efforts to stop him, but if he signaled the highjudge, it would be over. This is made clear in the quote I provided.

 

But this opponents made sure he would never have the opportunity. Slamming his arm down while he tried to signal the judge and threatening his little brother sure counts has being prevented to yield.

 

Adolin looked at the highjudge at one point hoping should would call it off as he couldn't signal her. The second an unarmored boy step into the ring, she should have stopped it. But she didn't. She looked away from Adolin. She was bought.

 

 

Adolin is the one scheming with his father and the king to take away all the Shards of opposing Houses in order to gain control of the kingdom. Adolin is the one who proposed the spectacle of a duel so he could petition the king to let him duel Sadeas to the death. Adolin is the one who provoked his opponents by humiliating them so they'd want revenge and the chance to get back at him. Adolin is the one who, despite being overmatched, stepped into the ring. This was almost entirely on his head.

 

Expecting his opponents to just roll over and let him take their Shards is not reasonable.

 

Adolin and his father were abandoned to die at the Tower and only escape with their life due to Kaladin's intervention. Worst, once they get back, the word of Sadeas's betrayal gets spread, but NOBODY cares. It is obvious in WoR this event disturbed Adolin greatly. House Kohlin had to try something and letting Adolin duel is a lesser evil. The fights are honorable. One on one. Adolin is a good duelist, they had a reasonable chance to think he'd win, but it was a risky plan. I do think Dalinar should have prevented Adolin from wagering all the family's shards into his fights. Putting the faith of the house on the head of his impulsive 22 years old son was not the most clever thing to do.

 

Adolin humiliating them? The fights were fair. Adolin is the better swordsman. Most of the other people's anger comes from the fact Adolin turned out being good. Pure jealousy.

 

 

 

Again, thank you for the correction... but this just proves my point even more. Adolin literally stood there for an hour, slowly beating Relit's cousin. That is entirely humiliation. That is a cat playing with its food. If you can't see why someone would be insulted by that, I'm not sure what to say. Wow, that makes Adolin look to actually be a huge jerk. Can you imagine being a parent watching your child get soundly humiliated like that and they get to take your family's priceless treasures? I would hate anyone who did that with a burning passion.

 

Which means Relit had an hour to try to strike a hit at Adolin, but failed. I agree Adolin could have ended the fight earlier, but he was trying to follow his father's instructions: "Be spectacular". So he did just that.

 

Relit's family has no reasons to be angry at Relit's losing. This is entirely on Relit's head. Relit had been warned not to respond to Adolin's demands, but greed drawn him into it. It was a duel for shards, meaning the loser had to forfeit his. Adolin clearly won. Relis was angry he won and try to discredit his winning by claiming he cheated.

 

Now they can be angry with Adolin, it is their right, but to scheme to get him killed or crippled? They clearly went overboard. Adolin did not deserved this treatment.

 

 

Relis is a jerk, but so is Adolin.

 

Here we have Adolin, continually calling Relis a coward because he refuses to duel him. The aforementioned part where Adolin spent an hour humiliating someone in front of a crowd, the part where Adolin threatens to crush someone's throat for not giving up their Blade fast enough (and forcing the person to show fear in front of a crowd, humiliating them), basically any of his interactions with Sadeas, and frankly the throat-crushing part is enough for me to see Adolin in a somewhat questionable light.

 

Adolin's friendly with those he likes, and a huge jerk to those he has any reason to dislike.

 

Adolin was desperate to get people to duel him as his father's grant master plan depended on him winning. Relis kept on refusing him, so Adolin tried to goad him into accepting.

 

The Salinor's fight was another story, I do agree with you. Adolin pull out quite a show there and fought like if he were on the battle field. This fight was strange and I am not sure what to think of it.

 

@Outis: As for Radiants being good people, that is not what I meant. One does not have to be a certain kind of good, but to show some virtues. Relis fails miserably on this account.

 

Exactly. All of the virtues embodied by the Radiants excludes a proto-Radiant from being selfish and cruel. Radiants has also all shown greater then usual talents and all are inspiring in their own personal way.

[Aleksiel]

I blame Adolin for not stopping the duel because he knew there was a high chance he'd be crippled. There was no such chance in the case of Adolin vs Relis' cousin.

 

As to why the cousin didn't surrender: beats me! Perhaps the rules of their duel did not allow forfeiting? Surrendering would carry its own shame in Alethi culture, which could also explain his opponent's reluctance to do so. Regardless, continuing to fight as Adolin did is not honorable. He could have saved his opponent some humiliation and ended the fight in a minute if he chose.

 

He was fighting to make a point (he can fight slow or long) and embarrass his opponent as a side-effect in order to goad the other members of the House into fighting him. This makes him, as a I said, a jerk. (Not that I disagree with his actions.)

 

 

Adolin was, plainly, allowed to yield. There would be no point to threatening Renarin to stop him from doing so if he couldn't in the first place. They made efforts to stop him, but if he signaled the highjudge, it would be over. This is made clear in the quote I provided.

 

 

Adolin is the one scheming with his father and the king to take away all the Shards of opposing Houses in order to gain control of the kingdom. Adolin is the one who proposed the spectacle of a duel so he could petition the king to let him duel Sadeas to the death. Adolin is the one who provoked his opponents by humiliating them so they'd want revenge and the chance to get back at him. Adolin is the one who, despite being overmatched, stepped into the ring. This was almost entirely on his head.

 

Expecting his opponents to just roll over and let him take their Shards is not reasonable.

 

Adolin slowly beating Relis's cousin in a fair duel does not justify what Relis and his buddies tried to do. I feel you're victim blaming here, saying Adolin provoked them, so he deserved it. 

 

It would have been reasonable for Adolin to have yielded when he saw the four Shardbearers, yet as we saw neither Elhokar, nor Kaladin would have done so (Zahed didn't yell at Adolin to forfeit, instead he offered advice), which makes me think the average and acceptable mindset was to give it a shot anyway. Adolin had the right to stop the duel at any given point, yet that right was compromised - him verbally saying he yielded was ignored, his hand to signal the judge was slammed down. The moment Renarin set foot on the arena, Adolin was told his brother would be killed/crippled if Adolin tried to surrender. He was threatened into continuing. Adolin had no way of knowing that once he engaged his opponents, he would not have a way out of the duel. Adolin choosing to start the duel does not justify taking away his right to forfeit.

[Guest]

Adolin slowly beating Relis's cousin in a fair duel does not justify what Relis and his buddies tried to do. I feel you're victim blaming here, saying Adolin provoked them, so he deserved it. 

 

It would have been reasonable for Adolin to have yielded when he saw the four Shardbearers, yet as we saw neither Elhokar, nor Kaladin would have done so (Zahed didn't yell at Adolin to forfeit, instead he offered advice), which makes me think the average and acceptable mindset was to give it a shot anyway. Adolin had the right to stop the duel at any given point, yet that right was compromised - him verbally saying he yielded was ignored, his hand to signal the judge was slammed down. The moment Renarin set foot on the arena, Adolin was told his brother would be killed/crippled if Adolin tried to surrender. He was threatened into continuing. Adolin had no way of knowing that once he engaged his opponents, he would not have a way out of the duel. Adolin choosing to start the duel does not justify taking away his right to forfeit.

 

Exactly.

 

I would also add Zahel's advice lead me to believe he thought Adolin actually had a chance to win. Didn't he say he was not cornered? Didn't he say they were afraid of him and he should take advantage of this? Had Adolin not panicked, had he managed to remove one opponent, he may have pulled it of. May.

 

The only person we saw suggesting Adolin should forfeit is Dalinar, but he was scared for his son. Understandable. Elhokar quickly talks Dalinar out of it, claiming too much was at risk here. Abandoning without a fight was not an option, not for the Kohlins, but Elhokar, just like Dalinar never thought Adolin's right to surrender would be compromised.

 

I'd also like to point out he did yell he surrendered, but the judge apparently did not hear. However, his opponents most likely did hear. Did they stop? No. They ignored his screams. They kept on pounding on him.

 

Adolin had done nothing more then winning duels. He used unusual tactics, which caused friction amongst the duelists, but he did win by following the rules in honorable fights. He did not deserve to be trap this way.

[Moogle]

They could have disarm him easily. Considering Renarin's skill level at the time of this fight, it must not have been such a difficult task. 

 

Adolin called himself stupid for not having specified the allowed number of opponents, not for going on with the fight. Adolin knew he had lost all of his family's shards at that moment, but he had to try. Give it a go. Lose with some fashion. Keep his head high and not let himself being beaten.

 

Besides, even Elhokar and Dalinar thought surrendering without a fight was not a good idea. It goes against Alethki's tradition to just surrender. How is it Adolin should have made that call?

 

Disarm a Shardbearer? For... what? So Renarin can just summon it again and keep attacking them? Renarin stepped onto the field, he had a sword, he was a combatant. I'm quite surprised they didn't chop his arm and deaden it, honestly.

 

As to Elhokar and Dalinar thinking surrendering was not a good idea, Dalinar thinks Adolin should do it, even if he has issues, and so does Kaladin:

“He outthought us,” Dalinar said softly to the king. “Again. We’ll need to retreat and consider our next move. Someone tell Adolin to pull out of the contest.”

“Are you certain?” the king said. “Pulling out would require that Adolin forfeit, Uncle. That’s six Shards, I believe. Everything you own.”

Kaladin could read the conflict in Dalinar’s features— the scrunched-up brow, the red fury rising on his cheeks, the indecision in his eyes. Give up? Without a fight? It was probably the right thing to do.

 

---

 

You claim here Relit could not have surrender as it would have brought shame on his family, but Adolin should have surrendered the moment he found out he has been out-thought?

 

Yes. Adolin is supposed to be better than other lighteyes, and Adolin was in a deal more danger.

 

You are missing the fact Adolin did try to stop the duel. He tried, three times. His opponents would not let him and the last time, the threatened to injure poor Renarin if he did not give them what they wanted. What do they wanted? Punishment. Adolin has been upsetting their little world, so he had to pay with his life. I do agree with Aleksiel here, Adolin is the victim. He was picked on for winning duels. Adolin would have NEVER step into such an unbalance fight with three fellows to beat down an opponent. Gee, Adolin had issues killing a chasmfield during a hunt...

 

And yet Adolin was willing to step into an utterly imbalanced fight with his opponents where he knew he'd win because he was super talented. He knew full well he was challenging weaker people to duels and that he was the one of the best dueliests in the kingdom. That was the whole idea of the plan, to use him to get basically guaranteed Shards. What's the difference between that and fighting three people?

 

What's more, despite being utterly better than his opponents, he wouldn't give them the decency of a fair fight or beating them when it was clear he was better. He humiliated someone for an hour.

 

Adolin looked at the highjudge at one point hoping should would call it off as he couldn't signal her. The second an unarmored boy step into the ring, she should have stopped it. But she didn't. She looked away from Adolin. She was bought.

 

Again, you're insulting Renarin's competence. And the highjudge makes it very clear to Dalinar what the conditions are:

The woman kept her eyes forward, watching the duel.

“Did you hear me?” Dalinar demanded. She said nothing.

“Fine,” he said. “I’ll end it then.”

“I am highprince here, Dalinar,” the woman said. “In this arena, my word is the only law, granted me by the authority of the king.” She turned to him . “Your son has not surrendered and he is not incapacitated. The terms of the duel have not been met, and I will not end it until they have been. Have you no respect for the law?”

 

Adolin was, at the time, standing with a sword and talking to his opponents. The highjudge never looks away so far as I can tell, and I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. Amaram looks away from Dalinar when he calls away for aid. The highjudge keeps eyes locked with Adolin the whole duel.

 

Adolin felt a panic rising. He looked toward the highjudge . She could call this on her own, if she felt it had gone too far.

She sat imperiously in her seat, watching him. Adolin thought he saw something behind her calm expression. They got to her, he thought. With a bribe, perhaps.

 

The most reasonable explanation here, as far as I can tell, is that things have not gone too far. And, as she says, Adolin could surrender. He was ready to give the signal himself.

 

---

 

Adolin humiliating them? The fights were fair. Adolin is the better swordsman. Most of the other people's anger comes from the fact Adolin turned out being good. Pure jealousy.

 

No, most of their anger is that Adolin refused to fight fair and instead wrestled instead of dueling and then humiliated his opponent for an hour. Adolin broke all the standard dueling practices in order to take people's priceless treasures. Of course they're angry. I'm not sure where you're getting this "jealousy" thing from. Obviously they didn't know how good he was because he had barely dueled for years.

 

---

 

Now they can be angry with Adolin, it is their right, but to scheme to get him killed or crippled? They clearly went overboard. Adolin did not deserved this treatment.

 

I agree, people should not crippled or killed for humiliating people. Adolin is still not blameless. Most of us would not be surprised if you poked a wild animal and it bit at you. Adolin was pissing off powerful people and taking their valuable objects, and he was doing it brutally by threatening to crush their throats and humiliating them for an hour.

 

---

 

Adolin slowly beating Relis's cousin in a fair duel does not justify what Relis and his buddies tried to do. I feel you're victim blaming here, saying Adolin provoked them, so he deserved it.

 

Obviously crippling someone who humiliates you is over the top and unacceptable. However, to repeat: Adolin was pissing off powerful people and taking their valuable objects, and he was doing it brutally by threatening to crush their throats and humiliating them for an hour. Their actions are not unreasonable. Neither party here was acting well, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Adolin had done nothing more then winning duels. He used unusual tactics, which caused friction amongst the duelists, but he did win by following the rules in honorable fights. He did not deserve to be trap this way.

 

"Following the rules" is an excuse Sadeas or Szeth uses. Adolin did not treat his opponents with honor. I'm not entirely sure how better to argue this point besides point to the fact that he literally threatened to crush someone's throat. He is not some blameless innocent who did "nothing more than win duels". His "unusual tactics" included humiliating someone for an hour, and frankly I'd be pissed at someone who did Adolin's wrestling trick too. If you're not willing to see what Adolin did when he fought his opponent for an hour as humiliating, then perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this discussion.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Actually, better duelist didn't accept Adolin's challenge, because they did not consider him a worthy opponent at the time, so he was left fighting the less skilled and trying to pick a fight by calling people names to make them demand a duel for the insult. It's obvious that can't end well, but Adolin wasn't preying on the weaker, so he's not to blame for not fighting people on his level.

 

While I agree starting the duel was a mistake (that the plot demanded) on Adolin's part, I don't think he fully understood their intentions, their resolve to harm even Renarin. The duel was a bit different from other duels as breaking a certain amount of Shards was no longer a reason to end the match whereas in other duels Adolin fought he needed to break three pieces of Plate to win. The terms of the disadvantaged duel were slightly different, if I recall it correctly only forfeiting or dying were the ways out. So, the judge (especially if bribed as it is heavily implied) had no grounds of stopping the duel as the terms were not met. And the terms couldn't be met because Relis and his buddies didn't let Adolin forfeit when he should have had the right to. Or the judge simply couldn't end the duel until the terms were met.

[Guest]

Disarm a Shardbearer? For... what? So Renarin can just summon it again and keep attacking them? Renarin stepped onto the field, he had a swordShow me, he was a combatant. I'm quite surprised they didn't chop his arm and deaden it, honestly.

 

Corner him, trap him, scare him away. Really. Renarin was very unskillful during this challenge and even if this particular fight did not reflex his real talent, he was still not a very strong threat.

 

 

As to Elhokar and Dalinar thinking surrendering was not a good idea, Dalinar thinks Adolin should do it, even if he has issues, and so does Kaladin:

 

Dalinar wants Adolin to forfeit at first because he is scared for his son. Had it been any other man, he would have never thought of surrendering. Elhokar however talks Dalinar out of it and, in the end, Dalinar agrees to let Adolin fight it. Kaladin seemed to agree and yes the passage you have quoted does underline this. Kaladin thinks Adolin should not abandon without a fight, however the rational part of him tells him this won't end well and he should forfeit. All this discussion simply serves to highlight that forfeiting is badly seen and heavily frown upon.

 

And how about Adolin down there knowing he has lost all of his family's shards? Give up without at least trying? He's already messed up big time when setting the rules for the duel, he probably just wanted to at least try.

 

 

And yet Adolin was willing to step into an utterly imbalanced fight with his opponents where he knew he'd win because he was super talented. He knew full well he was challenging weaker people to duels and that he was the one of the best dueliests in the kingdom. That was the whole idea of the plan, to use him to get basically guaranteed Shards. What's the difference between that and fighting three people?

 

What's more, despite being utterly better than his opponents, he wouldn't give them the decency of a fair fight or beating them when it was clear he was better. He humiliated someone for an hour.

 

Adolin tried to fight the best fighter in the camp: they all refused him. Nobody would shrink down to his level and fight him, despite wanting to. There is also the fact the Sadeas have been working to stop people from accepting his challenges. Dalinar put a lot of pressure on Adolin with the dueling campain, so Adolin started taling more drastic measures to goad people into dueling him.

 

And how was the fight against Relit unfair? Relit was not disabled nor trapped nor prevented from fighting. He just ended up in a fight against a more worthy opponent who yes, took his time in winning. Had Adolin beaten down Relit in three quick strokes, would that have prevented Relit from feeling humiliated at losing against someone he thought was beneath him? The outcome would have been the same: Relit would have lost his plate, Relis would still have been angry and would still have called Adolin a cheater as they ALL think Adolin is not worth much in terms of dueling. Adolin won one shardblade at 16 and since then, nothing. Everyone probably thinks he got lucky that day (I so hope we'll get that fight in one of the flashbacks).

 

My whole point is losing is, by itself, a humbling experience, unless you came close to wining. Should Adolin have acted like in the Eranniv duel and let Relit score a few hits on him just to preserve his pride?

 

 

 

Again, you're insulting Renarin's competence. And the highjudge makes it very clear to Dalinar what the conditions are:

 

Renarin has not shown any competence when handling weapons, both on the practice and the battle field. We know there are circumstances and there is reasonable chance Renarin will manage to turn into a passable fighter, eventually. However, the truth is Renarin will never be in the same league as any of the duelists.

 

 

Adolin was, at the time, standing with a sword and talking to his opponents. The highjudge never looks away so far as I can tell, and I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. Amaram looks away from Dalinar when he calls away for aid. The highjudge keeps eyes locked with Adolin the whole duel.

 

Sorry my bad. I seemed to recall she looked away. However, Adolin seemed to be within the impression she should have called it of.

 

 

No, most of their anger is that Adolin refused to fight fair and instead wrestled instead of dueling and then humiliated his opponent for an hour. Adolin broke all the standard dueling practices in order to take people's priceless treasures. Of course they're angry. I'm not sure where you're getting this "jealousy" thing from. Obviously they didn't know how good he was because he had barely dueled for years.

 

Adolin broke no rules when dueling. What he did was within acceptable limits. Now it was not what the other people expected, but it was still legal. He did not take their priceless treasure, he won them after their holder accepted to duel him for it.

 

My jealousy thing came from how everyone in camp see Adolin. Sadeas remarks on it a few times, how unseemly it is he got to be a full shardbearer at such a young age, how in normal circumstances, the kid should have had to wait for years until his father retired from the fighting ground to inherit his plate and blade. Basically, Adolin was lucky is mother's family had a plate to give him, as for his blade.... He won it in a world where shards are not often won in duels. He was 16. A novice with no fighting experience at all. Everyone thought he would lose, but he won. Surely that caused resentment. I am pretty sure the average lighteye does not get doted on shards at 16, except perhaps the crown prince. So yeah, they all are jealous of Adolin, especially since, shortly after winning his blade, he was prevented from taking part into any important duels as Galivar was murdered. So basically, Adolin has been sitting on the fame of one single fight for years and everyone have been wanting to try themselves at him just to see if he really is that good. But he kept refusing all fights, they came to thing his was empty boost, his win must have been lucky.

 

So yeah, the dueling crew did not expect Adolin to win. They expected him to lose, pathetically. The whole crowd expected Adolin to lose. In every single duel he ever fought, he was given out as the loser. The truth is, Adolin has not been following the normal path since his teenage years, so yeah they all are jealous.

 

 

Obviously crippling someone who humiliates you is over the top and unacceptable. However, to repeat: Adolin was pissing off powerful people and taking their valuable objects, and he was doing it brutally by threatening to crush their throats and humiliating them for an hour. Their actions are not unreasonable. Neither party here was acting well, as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

"Following the rules" is an excuse Sadeas or Szeth uses. Adolin did not treat his opponents with honor. I'm not entirely sure how better to argue this point besides point to the fact that he literally threatened to crush someone's throat. He is not some blameless innocent who did "nothing more than win duels". His "unusual tactics" included humiliating someone for an hour, and frankly I'd be pissed at someone who did Adolin's wrestling trick too. If you're not willing to see what Adolin did when he fought his opponent for an hour as humiliating, then perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this discussion.

 

I agree with you that Adolin did not behave properly during the Salinor duel. However, the rules did not prevent him from doing what he did. The throat crushing thing was a bit much, but I felt this particular part highlighted the strange thing that is happening to Adolin. We don't know how he'll turn out, but in this instance (and when he murdered Sadeas), Adolin was not Adolin anymore: he was something else. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

As I said earlier, there is not way Adolin could have fought Relit without humiliating him, unless he purposely let Relit take hits on him. Adolin is another league when it comes to swordfighting: he is a prodigy who has worked very hard all his life to develop his skill.

[kaellok he/him]

I tried holding off, but I do have a few words to say; I likely won't say anything else, though, because the conversation is seeming to run in circles now anyway, but there's at least one very important point I want to bring up.

 

Corner him, trap him, scare him away. Really. Renarin was very unskillful during this challenge and even if this particular fight did not reflex his real talent, he was still not a very strong threat.

Realize that they kept one person on Renarin, preventing Renarin from assisting in a material way--but they didn't actually hurt him.  The goal wasn't to hurt/harm Renarin, but to punish Adolin.  The scope of their vengeance was, thus, quite narrow and specific.  Renarin was unarmored and fighting just to hold onto the Blade; ending him as a threat, and then having that fourth person return to attack Adolin, would have been the smart and intelligent thing to do, and also in keeping with the rules.  The fact that they didn't is telling, and a very strong point in their favor.

 

 

 

Adolin broke no rules when dueling. What he did was within acceptable limits. 

Neither did the four.  In fact, no one broke any rules. In accordance with grand Alethi tradition, they all instead manipulated the rules to achieve the outcome they wanted.  This is not a point in Adolin's favor, as he was acting in the same fashion as they were.  Either it's a good thing to manipulate rules, expectations, and codes of conduct--or it's not.  (Assuming, of course, that one is acting in a way that is Honorable while they either uphold the rules and expectations or don't.)  Adolin's actions in the duel against Relit weren't Honorable.  There was absolutely nothing of Honor about it, but based on the Thrill, Odium was likely present.

 

There is significant evidence that the four planned their response to the duel carefully, and deliberately.  They did so primarily because of Adolin's attitude and behavior in the ring, and also likely because they could see exactly what the Kholins were attempting--and as determined to prevent it as Adolin was to achieve it.  Adolin specifically opened himself up to the potential consequences knowingly and purposefully, and did not back down when given the opportunity--first right after the challenge, when asked by the judge; second before he charged them solo.  Two opportunities to retreat or surrender are more than most enemies are given, so in this the judge acted with at least the barest modicum of honor.

 

The questions here are simple.

Had Adolin acted with Honor in his previous duels?  No.  Not even close.  Retirbution, judgment, vengeance; not Honor. 

Did anyone, at all, in that ring act with Honor?  Kaladin, Renarin, and, after Renarin was directly threatened, Adolin.

Did Adolin deserve punishment for his previous actions?  Yes.  Choking and threatening a disarmed/defeated opponent in a fight that had clearly defined rules that were not to the death is most definitely not of Honor.

Did he deserve maiming or death for them?  No, not even close.  The chosen punishment was out of all proportion to the insult he gave them.

 

tl;dr: Adolin is worse than most of you are saying, and the four are better.  All of them are playing the exact same game that Sadeas proved to be a master of.

[Aleksiel]

I think we just moved from arguing about something specific to generally discussing the 4 vs 1 duel, which may seem like going in circles.

 

You're right, Adolin didn't act with honor, but Alethi aren't fond of honor anyway, except for Dalinar and Kaladin. But I'm pretty sure the four did break the rules as ignoring someone yielding and slamming someone's hand down when trying to forfeit are likely illegal. They didn't kill Renarin as that would have probably worked against them for two reasons:

1. They basically held Ren as hostage to make sure Adolin complied - you can't carelessly kill the reason your target obeys.

2. Killing/maiming a Shardplateless  opponent, who's well-known to be sick and barely trained, in a disadvantaged duel would have probably be frowned upon. Killing Renarin risked making him or the Kholins martyrs, which would have been against the goal to humiliate and punish Adolin.  

 

But this is just my reading of why they sparing Renarin, anyone can read it as them being better than I give them credit for and only Brandon knows which is true.

[Guest]

I think we just moved from arguing about something specific to generally discussing the 4 vs 1 duel, which may seem like going in circles.

 

You're right, Adolin didn't act with honor, but Alethi aren't fond of honor anyway, except for Dalinar and Kaladin. But I'm pretty sure the four did break the rules as ignoring someone yielding and slamming someone's hand down when trying to forfeit are likely illegal. They didn't kill Renarin as that would have probably worked against them for two reasons:

1. They basically held Ren as hostage to make sure Adolin complied - you can't carelessly kill the reason your target obeys.

2. Killing/maiming a Shardplateless  opponent, who's well-known to be sick and barely trained, in a disadvantaged duel would have probably be frowned upon. Killing Renarin risked making him or the Kholins martyrs, which would have been against the goal to humiliate and punish Adolin.  

 

But this is just my reading of why they sparing Renarin, anyone can read it as them being better than I give them credit for and only Brandon knows which is true.

 

I read it the same way. The were reluctant to hurt Renarin, but they were adamant in using him as a threat to keep Adolin fighting, to death.

 

 

Had Adolin acted with Honor in his previous duels?  No.  Not even close.  Retirbution, judgment, vengeance; not Honor. 

Did anyone, at all, in that ring act with Honor?  Kaladin, Renarin, and, after Renarin was directly threatened, Adolin.

Did Adolin deserve punishment for his previous actions?  Yes.  Choking and threatening a disarmed/defeated opponent in a fight that had clearly defined rules that were not to the death is most definitely not of Honor.

Did he deserve maiming or death for them?  No, not even close.  The chosen punishment was out of all proportion to the insult he gave them.

 

tl;dr: Adolin is worse than most of you are saying, and the four are better.  All of them are playing the exact same game that Sadeas proved to be a master of.

The questions here are simple.

 

I keep reading Adolin acted without honor in his duel. How else should he have acted? His house had been slammed. 6000 of his men were brutally murdered and they was no legal ways to punish the culprit. They had to act. Standing aside was not an option. The only way they saw of doing it was to outplay the highprinces in their own games, which was execute by letting Adolin duel the shardbearers.

 

Adolin had to win and he had to do it in a decisive way. He had to be spectacular, remembered. The whole Kohlin plan lay on these fondations.

 

Now I ask again, what should have Adolin done differently? Let Relit win? Let Relit strike a few hits against him to make it look as if it were an equal fight? Sure he beat down Salinor and he threatened him, but he did so after Salinor refused to surrendered his blade. I agree Adolin's actions were out of proportion and he realized it shortly after.

 

The Thrill was not involved in Adolin's fight with Relit. And I ask again, how else should he have fought? Should he have beaten down Relit in a few minutes? By keeping at it for an hour, he actually let Relit a chance to strike a hit: for an hour, which he failed to do. Sure, he was making a point, but let's nor forget the Kohlin household just suffered a massive lost. It called for extreme measures.

 

And how about the 4 on 1 duel? How is it Adolin is acting honorless in that one? What did he do?

 

The only duel I saw Adolin acting badly was the one against Salinor, but I do tend to excuse him as he used this fight as a remembrance, a remembrance they are at war, a remembrance this is not a game anymore: real people are dying. Based on what had happened to his house, I have a hard time blaming him for his actions. Should he have acted better? Of course. Should he have choked his opponent? Of course not. Did he deserved being accused of cheating after this fight? Yes. Did he deserved to be accused of cheating after the fight against Relit? No. Did he deserved to be punished for it? I am unsure. Others did much, much worst and got away with nothing. So how is it Adolin brutally dueling with an opponent call for punishment when the murder of 6000 men does not?

[Aleksiel]

That's alethi propriety for you - it's fine to abandon your ally so long as you don't admit it, but Almighty forbid you did something questionable in a duel. Priorities.

[Guest]

That's alethi propriety for you - it's fine to abandon your ally so long as you don't admit it, but Almighty forbid you did something questionable in a duel. Priorities.

 

But it is unfair! 6000 men died. Adolin killed no one dueling. I so understand Adolin's behavior. Had it been me, I would have been much more outspoken. Perhaps it is why I tend to excuse him this easily

[Aleksiel]

But it is unfair! 6000 men died. Adolin killed no one dueling. I so understand Adolin's behavior. Had it been me, I would have been much more outspoken. Perhaps it is why I tend to excuse him this easily

 

Had it been Jasnah, Sadeas would have died in the first few chapters of WoR 

[Guest]

Had it been Jasnah, Sadeas would have died in the first few chapters of WoR 

 

True. And there would be no repercussion as assassination are accepted, but openly knifing your opponent with your own hands.... Shame on you. Poor Adolin. No matter what he does, he is the sore loser. My questions maintain, what should he have done differently?

 

Look, this is so funny... You are a Son of Honor while I am a Ghostblood

[Aleksiel]

True. And there would be no repercussion as assassination are accepted, but openly knifing your opponent with your own hands.... Shame on you. Poor Adolin. No matter what he does, he is the sore loser. My questions maintain, what should he have done differently?

 

He should have maintained alethi propriety and hired an assassin, duh!

 

 

 

Look, this is so funny... You are a Son of Honor while I am a Ghostblood 

 

It feels ironic now 

[Guest]

He should have maintained alethi propriety and hired an assassin, duh!

 

 

It feels ironic now 

 

Then the fault falls on Dalinar. He was the one calling the shots.

 

Yeah. So ironic. I turned Ghostblood today, but between you and me, Ghostbloods rock, Son of Honor sucks

[Aleksiel]

Yeah. So ironic. I turned Ghostblood today, but between you and me, Ghostbloods rock, Son of Honor sucks

 

You must become a Son of Honor, if you wish to progress, young Ghostblood. Come to the religious zealots, we have Heralds.

[Guest]

You must become a Son of Honor, if you wish to progress, young Ghostblood. Come to the religious zealots, we have Heralds.

 

To think that I started as a lowly spearman I am surprised I made it this far. Fear not, I will soon join you, providing I can steer away from dangerous discussion where I may get downvoted.

[Stormwalker]

Now I ask again, what should have Adolin done differently? Let Relit win? Let Relit strike a few hits against him to make it look as if it were an equal fight? Sure he beat down Salinor and he threatened him, but he did so after Salinor refused to surrendered his blade. I agree Adolin's actions were out of proportion and he realized it shortly after.

 

The Thrill was not involved in Adolin's fight with Relit. And I ask again, how else should he have fought? Should he have beaten down Relit in a few minutes? By keeping at it for an hour, he actually let Relit a chance to strike a hit: for an hour, which he failed to do. Sure, he was making a point, but let's nor forget the Kohlin household just suffered a massive lost. It called for extreme measures.

 

Sorry, but this is one of those times that I just feel compelled to voice my disagreement. I really don't think you understand what must have been the magnitude of Elit's humiliation in his dual with Adolin. Alethkar is basically a warrior society, the greatest calling in life is to be a soldier, and martial prowess is greatly revered. I don't claim to be an too knowledgable in such things, but I can't think of a single more humiliating thing Adolin could have done to Elit than what he did in that dual. If Adolin had beat Elit in a single strike, It would not have been (IMO) as humiliating. Instead, he toyed with him for a full hour, showing he has absolutely no respect whatsoever for Elit, and making a spectacle of him in front of everybody in attendence. Do you really think that no one else would have seen what Adolin was doing? I am not surprised his whole family felt the shame of that defeat. You ask what Adolin could have done differently? He could have beat Elit in 5 minutes like a respectful dualist instead of humiliating him for 55 minutes in front of the Alethi court, just to rub in how much better he is at dualing.

[/inconsequential rant]

My point is, it really was a jerk move—you can show your skill without humiliating someone like that. Sure, Adolin needed to do something to goad Relis into dualling him, but that doesn't make the act any more honourable (journey before destination and all that).

 

Anyway, was I the only person who assumed Sadeas was behind the whole cripple Adolin plan? I mean, I could see Relis trying to hurt Adolin, but the way he made sure Adolin couldn't forfeit seemed (despite my last paragraph ) particularly brutal and over-the-top, and that just screams Sadeas to me. I don't see any conclusive evidence the judge was actually bribed, but if she was, than I think that would be stronger evidence for this (Dalinar has a lot of politcal power, so if you are going to actively let his son get crippled in front of everyone, than you better have someone powerful backing you). Of course, the fact that Relis didn't think the plan up, doesn't excuse his behaviour, but I think that is exactly the difference between the normal Alethi lighteyes and the particularly bad people.

[Moogle]

Stormwalker and kaellok have essentially said everything I was going to say in response to maxal, so I'll leave it at that.

[lol_king he/him]

I don't think the judge was bribed, but she didn't like his method dueling so she was probably biased against him. Adolin didn't break any rules, but he broke dueling conventions, so the judge was willing to let the duel go on as long as no actual rules were broken. Tit for tat i guess.

[Aleksiel]

Meh, Elit (is that the name of Relis's cousin? I've forgotten, sorry) could have just forfeited instead of proving he can't lend a hit on Adolin for a whole hour and was too stupid to see his own defeat. I can't feel sorry for the guy. I understand why Relis was angry with Adolin, but I don't think it was entirely justified as Elit chose to continue the duel on his own free will. Also, beating him for 5 minutes would have been humiliating if you really think about it. Which is less humiliating is entirely subjective.

[Moogle]

I understand why Relis was angry with Adolin, but I don't think it was entirely justified as Elit chose to continue the duel on his own free will. Also, beating him for 5 minutes would have been humiliating if you really think about it. Which is less humiliating is entirely subjective.

 

What do you think Relis would have said to Adolin if he beat his cousin without humiliating him for an hour? "How dare you win in a fair fight without using any tricky and without acting dishonorably!"? I'm rather firmly in the camp that being beaten because your opponent is better than you is not humiliating in the slightest. It's being toyed with that's humiliating.

 

Surrendering would have been more humiliating than what happened, I imagine, which is likely why he didn't do it.