Can the surge of gravitation allow for time travel?

[Stupidity She/Her/ona]

So, I know that in Yumi, Design stated that time travel to the past is impossible in the cosmere, and my question takes this into account. Since gravity is not its own phenomenon, and is actually a function of space-time, I am wondering what basic lashings actually do. In order to change gravity, a surgebinder must change one of three things: Space-time, the lashed object's mass, or everything else's mass. A basic lashing most likely affects the second one, as that is much simpler. BUT, a basic lashing can change the direction of gravity, and that would require altering space-time. Can a surgebinder alter spacetime separately from a basic lashing? I am also curious of half and double lashings. Since a double lashing doubles gravity, it must also double time. Meaning that from a lashed object's perspective the rest of the cosmere would be moving half as fast. One may think of this as gravity actually staying the exact same, and only time changing speed relative to the lashed object. Therefore, from a windrunner's or skybreaker's perspective, they would have trouble telling how gravity is changing, and would only perceive a change in time. A half lashing may be even more bizarre. Half lashing an object upwards would either not change relative time at all, or would stop time altogether. The second option means that an object would experience infinite time before any of it's stormlight would dissipate. From an outside perspective, this would mean the object would instantly experience infinite time, making it explode/disintegrate/stop existing altogether. A quarter lashing instead would either make time reverse, or slow down the object's time. From the object's perspective, everything else would be twice as fast, while its relative time would remain normal. I also wonder if a negative lashing is possible and what this would do to gravity and time. And also what sort of time travel a reverse lashing would induce. A negative lashing may be the same as lashing in the opposite direction to normal gravity. Also, if a negative lashing or quarter lashing is what creates time travel to the past, should it not be impossible in the stormlight archive?

Edited March 10, 2024 by Stupidity

[alder24]

Hello, welcome to the forum!

On 3/10/2024 at 2:46 PM, Stupidity said:

In order to change gravity, a surgebinder must change one of three things: Space-time, the lashed object's mass, or everything else's mass. A basic lashing most likely affects the second one, as that is much simpler. BUT, a basic lashing can change the direction of gravity, and that would require altering space-time. Can a surgebinder alter spacetime separately from a basic lashing?

The way the Surge of Gravitation changes the gravitational acceleration and the direction of it isn't by changing masses or Affecting spacetime, it's by changing the spiritual Connection to gravity of affected objects. In Cosmere the Physical Realm is only one "dimension" of reality, there is also the Cognitive Realm (realm of the mind) and the Spiritual Realm where investiture and souls exist. The Surge of Gravitation affects your Connection to gravity, Connecting you to a virtual supermassive object in the Lashed direction, that doesn't actually exist. It doesn't change mass or warp spacetime, all work is done in the Spiritual Realm, not Physical. WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

[...]

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

MoriWillow

Hello, I hope this message finds you well. I was wondering if you might be able to answer a question. Was going back through the Stormlight books in prep for Rhythm of War, and I realized I didn't actually understand what was happening with the Stormlight when someone used a Basic Lashing. What actually happens to the Stormlight in the creation and maintenance of a Basic Lashing? (Especially when someone is Lashing themselves?)

Brandon Sanderson

Whew. It's complicated. Basically, the magic is persuading the Lashed object that it is not actually bound to the gravity of the planet--but to the gravity of a supermassive object in the direction indicated. (But which doesn't actually exist.) Imagine it as a Lightweaving that creates an illusion, but the illusion is of something massive that only is seen by the Spiritual aspect of the Lashed object/individual.

It works pretty well inside of the cosmere's magical framework, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you approach it from the physics of our realm.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020)

 

Spoiler

clyguy

If Wax were to go to Roshar, and--he's a Skimmer, right? So he can change his weight--if he got Lashed in a different direction if he Stored his weight would that nullify some of the Lashing?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, you're going to make me think through this. *laughter* So Wax actually changes mass. And the Lashing only affects gravitational pull. So the answer is no because different things with different masses fall at the same speed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

On 3/10/2024 at 2:46 PM, Stupidity said:

I am also curious of half and double lashings. Since a double lashing doubles gravity, it must also double time. Meaning that from a lashed object's perspective the rest of the cosmere would be moving half as fast.

No, that's not how time dilation works. Planets with double the mass of Earth don't have half as slow time passage. The difference in time dilation caused on such a low mass scale is miniscule. For example the Sun is around one million times more massive than the Earth and on the surface of the Sun time passes slower only by a minute or so per year. That's nothing.

Because the Surge of Gravity doesn't affect masses or warp spacetime, no gravitational time dilation would happen - I guess, depending on how the Spiritual Connection would play with it. Would it fool the soul so much that it would behave like it was in the gravitational field dictated by a Lashing or not? If yes then gravitational time dilation would happen, but you would need massive amounts of Lashing - you probably can't even have that much Stormlight in the first place to generate such visible effects. The time dilation that would be important is due to speeds involved - a Surgebinder can Lash himself to eventually reach near light speed velocities and that would make him experience a considerable time dilation.

On 3/10/2024 at 2:46 PM, Stupidity said:

One may think of this as gravity actually staying the exact same, and only time changing speed relative to the lashed object. Therefore, from a windrunner's or skybreaker's perspective, they would have trouble telling how gravity is changing, and would only perceive a change in time.

That's not something that is happening in books. The world around them doesn't suddenly slow down when they use the Surge of Gravitation. 

On 3/10/2024 at 2:46 PM, Stupidity said:

And also what sort of time travel a reverse lashing would induce. A negative lashing may be the same as lashing in the opposite direction to normal gravity. Also, if a negative lashing or quarter lashing is what creates time travel to the past, should it not be impossible in the stormlight archive?

You really went wild by the end here. All of this doesn't work like that. Reverse Lashing doesn't work like that, it's a combination of the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion. And backwards time travel is definitely and canonically impossible in Cosmere:

Spoiler

Adam Horne

A few people have wondered if we're ever going to see time travel in the cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Time travel into the past is something that I decided very early in the life of the cosmere that I was not going to deal with. So people can time travel into the future, but we can do that right now - not very much, but if you go fast, you are time traveling into the future by laws of relativity, and it's easier to do that in the cosmere. There are a couple things for storytelling that really throw a lot of wrenches into your worldbuilding. One of them's time travel; as soon as you introduce time travel, it changes everything.

Another one is bringing characters back from the dead, and since my very first cosmere book starts with someone being resurrected in chapter one, I knew that people coming back from the dead was not something I could have a hard fast rule against in the cosmere. Multiple books are based on the idea of people being resurrected; that's where Warbreaker and Elantris both come from, is that kind of idea.

Since I knew I was going to be doing that one, the other two that I think that really mess with things in strange ways are alternate dimensions and time travel. And that's when I just said I'm going to put those both off-limits in the cosmere. You saw me doing alternate dimension stuff in Steelheart, in part because I won't let myself do it in the cosmere. I'm already playing with fire with the way that people can become cognitive shadows in the cosmere, and I don't want to have the other two messing up narratives and storylines and things on the level that they would. So no time travel into the past ever in the cosmere.

YouTube Livestream 1 (Jan. 11, 2020)

 

Edited March 11, 2024 by alder24