Szeth and Nightblood.

[Oudeis he/him]

It seems a little premature. It's possible that "a bond with Nightblood" allows you to inhale Stormlight, but just as it's not directly contradicted, it's also a bit of a stretch to assume it's that simple.

 

Perhaps it is, and that's all there will be to that. Still, I think it's worth speculating for now.

[Moogle]

Or...  have I missed a WoB that contradicts this?

 

From the Annotations:

Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher’s Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It’s also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn’t get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he’s a good person. It’s not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

(source)

 

If we're assuming that bonding a Splinter on Roshar gives you powers (which is a very well-supported theory), this appears to be how you bond Nightblood.

 

If Szeth were to draw Nightblood, he'd kill Szeth quickly. So how can Szeth get a bond to Nightblood?

 

I don't think Vasher's bond to Nightblood is what lets him consume Stormlight. When we find people able to take in gaseous Investiture, we find that they tend to have been 'keyed' to that Shard in some way. Vin using the Well left enough of it on her that she could use the Mists, and of course she was chosen by Preservation from early birth. Mistborn epigraph:

Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person's body to be able to accept the mists.

 

To draw in Stormlight, each Surgebinder gets a piece of Honor/Cultivation in them by bonding a spren, which should similarly act as an attuning force. Breath is accepted by everyone probably due to the Intent of Endowment (since you'd expect that Intent to let it give the power to anyone and endow them).

 

Nightblood's made of Endowment, so I doubt he allows one to take in Stormlight. It's a possibility, but it doesn't fit in with what we know.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Moogle

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

From the Annotations:

If we're assuming that bonding a Splinter on Roshar gives you powers (which is a very well-supported theory), this appears to be how you bond Nightblood.

If Szeth were to draw Nightblood, he'd kill Szeth quickly. So how can Szeth get a bond to Nightblood?

I don't think Vasher's bond to Nightblood is what lets him consume Stormlight. When we find people able to take in gaseous Investiture, we find that they tend to have been 'keyed' to that Shard in some way. Vin using the Well left enough of it on her that she could use the Mists, and of course she was chosen by Preservation from early birth. Mistborn epigraph:

To draw in Stormlight, each Surgebinder gets a piece of Honor/Cultivation in them by bonding a spren, which should similarly act as an attuning force. Breath is accepted by everyone probably due to the Intent of Endowment (since you'd expect that Intent to let it give the power to anyone and endow them).

Nightblood's made of Endowment, so I doubt he allows one to take in Stormlight. It's a possibility, but it doesn't fit in with what we know.

Not to argue your point or anything, but why would Szeth be given Nightblood if it was going to kill him the moment he tried to use it?

If we assume that to be able to intake Stormlight requires some sort of attunement then wouldn't Szeth be able to still use it because he was Bonded to a Honourblade?

[Moogle]

Not to argue your point or anything, but why would Szeth be given Nightblood if it was going to kill him the moment he tried to use it?

If we assume that to be able to intake Stormlight requires some sort of attunement then wouldn't Szeth be able to still use it because he was Bonded to a Honourblade?

 

Szeth can still use Nightblood like Vasher did. Flinging it at people and letting them commit suicide should be workable enough. I don't expect Szeth to be the Assassin in White all over again and take on multiple Shardbearers (at least, not with just Nightblood). The Skybreakers seem more subtle about things.

 

As to why Nalan would give Szeth the sword, I expect it's more to manipulate Szeth than anything. Nightblood doesn't seem to be a match for Honorblades if it doesn't grant Surges. What's Szeth supposed to do against someone Soulcasting him? Not a whole lot, is my guess. I don't think Nightblood is there to give Szeth an edge in direct combat, which leaves its use as an indirect edge and/or a way to manipulate Szeth. I mean, unless Nightblood itself can destroy Honorblades. That's a possibility. Still leaves the issue of powering it, though...

 

Giving Szeth a blade that tells him to constantly destroy evil is bound to have some effects on Szeth's psyche, or perhaps it's training to let Szeth ignore his emotions. Nalan is a mystery.

 

Szeth's bond to his Honorblade is broken (or so claims Nalan), so he would no longer be attuned in the same way Vin or Kaladin are.

 

Edit: Something I just recalled from Warbreaker is that a priest drew Nightblood, but Vasher stopped him. His arm was all grey, which indicates Nightblood only ate part of his soul. It could be Nalan will do something similar with Szeth, and that will be enough to bond Szeth to Nightblood. I still don't think that it will grant him the ability to use Stormlight, though - but that's just speculation, even if it's as reliable speculation as I can make with the lack of evidence.

 

The WoB and Szeth powering Nightblood with Stormlight has Brandon saying "Well, you'll have to see if...", which I interpret as meaning Szeth won't be able to power it:

Q:  Would Vasher be able to use Stormlight in the same way that he can get Breath?

A:  That would not be immediately easy, but Stormlight could feed Nightblood.

Q:  Which is why Szeth can wield Nightblood?

A:  Eh, you'll have to see if … but yes. That could theoretically happen. You can use most of the magics on most of the planets to fuel the other magics, if you know how to do it, it is not easy.

 

I also interpret this to mean that Vasher taking in Stormlight was not as easy as him being bonded to Nightblood.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Lumen]

Thanks for the additional info. I guess we will find out more in the next book.  Would be interesting to see how Vasher has rigged things so that he can access stormlight.  We may find out from Szeth.

 

 
From the Annotations:

 
Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person's body to be able to accept the mists.

 

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought she used the mists to defeat the Lord Ruler (after her earring was removed).  And that was before the Well.   But this is off-topic.  

[Moogle]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought she used the mists to defeat the Lord Ruler (after her earring was removed).  And that was before the Well.   But this is off-topic.  

 

It's suggested in the epigraphs that she constantly drew the mist in, even as a child. She was specifically chosen by Leras and the mists to be their vessel, and was an unusually talented Allomancer. This suggests she was "attuned" enough to the mists to draw them in even at birth (though I have no idea how). The epigraph suggests that she still needed the well to take in all the mists.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

Moogle:

 

Very well-made point.

[Hoid Is Dead]

Note that in the book, it is stated that he can be revived using the right fabrials, but it never did say that he is revived by fabrials. 

 

Just finished re-reading Words of Radiance, and so, I came up with this conclusions:

Szeth is dead.

Szeth is revived by XXXXX.

Szeth became a returned.

Szeth is now like the ones(I dunno) in the Warbreaker, hence, can communicate w/ Night blood.

 

Therefore, I conclude, that Szeth can now wield Nightblood and not die, because, he has now access to breaths.

 

 

Questions:

Zahel = Vasher? = Nale?

If so, Words of Radiance happened after the events in Warbreaker, a couple of Centuries ago.

If so, access to Stormlight healed Vasher, made him a mortal again, whilst having access to breaths too.

[Guest]

Note that in the book, it is stated that he can be revived using the right fabrials, but it never did say that he is revived by fabrials. 

 

Just finished re-reading Words of Radiance, and so, I came up with this conclusions:

Szeth is dead.

Szeth is revived by XXXXX.

Szeth became a returned.

Szeth is now like the ones(I dunno) in the Warbreaker, hence, can communicate w/ Night blood.

 

Therefore, I conclude, that Szeth can now wield Nightblood and not die, because, he has now access to breaths.

 

 

Questions:

Zahel = Vasher? = Nale?

If so, Words of Radiance happened after the events in Warbreaker, a couple of Centuries ago.

If so, access to Stormlight healed Vasher, made him a mortal again, whilst having access to breaths too.

 

Szeth is not a Returned. There are no Returned on Roshar except for those who have worldhopped. He was brought back to life by Nale using a fabrial. From the Lift interlude, we also know it is possible to heal partial death (as long as the brain is not dead) using the Progression surge. Therefore, Szeth is not immortal and he does not have to take breaths to survive. He has just been healed from a near fatal wound shortly before his brain went completely dead.

 

All this have lead me to wonder how well this kind of healing works... It heals the physical wound, but does it heal the trauma? Or the blood loss? Do they healed need to rest afterwards to refuel their energy level much like in WoT? I have so many questions when it comes to the Progression surge.

 

As for Zahel, he is Vasher. This has been confirmed, but he is not Nale. Nale is the herald in charge of the order of the Skybreakers. Why Nightblood ended up in his hand, we do not know. This story has not been told yet.

[kaellok he/him]

Note that in the book, it is stated that he can be revived using the right fabrials, but it never did say that he is revived by fabrials. 

 

Just finished re-reading Words of Radiance, and so, I came up with this conclusions:

Szeth is dead.

Szeth is revived by XXXXX.

Szeth became a returned.

Szeth is now like the ones(I dunno) in the Warbreaker, hence, can communicate w/ Night blood.

 

Therefore, I conclude, that Szeth can now wield Nightblood and not die, because, he has now access to breaths.

 

 

Questions:

Zahel = Vasher? = Nale?

If so, Words of Radiance happened after the events in Warbreaker, a couple of Centuries ago.

If so, access to Stormlight healed Vasher, made him a mortal again, whilst having access to breaths too.

Szeth's body dies, breaking the bond with the Honorblade (supposedly) but his Cognitive and Spiritual forms are still alive when Nale brings him back.  Investiture-based healing on most planets is based on how you perceive yourself, so your Cognitive self must still be 'alive' for the healing to take place.  

 

Returned are people who have died, received a Splinter of Endowment, and then came back from the dead.  They have an idealized form based on society's views of that time.  Szeth's body presumably stayed the same, so he did not Return that way.  He is not on Warbreaker's planet (Sel? I forget the name), so he is not a Returned of Endowment.  None of the Shards seem to have exactly the same magic system, so it is incredibly unlikely for Odium's or Cultivation's to work that way (especially since we have seen pieces of both, and a lot more of Honor's.)  ie, there is literally nothing to suggest that Szeth is a Returned.

 

 

 

Q:  If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?

A:  Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal

 

 

Q:  Is Nightblood going to be able to eat Stormlight?

A:  Nightblood will drain any Investiture, so yes

 

 

Q:  If someone--Vasher says that Nightblood would kill him, is that just because he has this big deific Breath? Would it kill an ordinary person, like a drab?

A:  It would suck the Breath from anybody, and if they were unable to feed it he would feed on their soul.

Q:  So they would die.

A:  Yes. Anybody wielding Nightblood, he will suck their soul. For too long, he will eventually, if you draw him, he will suck your soul.

 

I remember there being a WoB that Nightblood would go after Investiture that's not 'attached' to a person first, that he would consume, say, someone else before the wielder, but I can't find it now--and that may have also been conjecture and theory and not actual WoB.  Regardless, we know that simply being a Returned does not grant immunity from Nightblood's nature.  However, we also  have a clue as to how Szeth could wield Nightblood safely: carry lots and lots of Emerald broams or other gems that are fully infused with Stormlight.  This would be rather incredibly limited, but Vasher's wielding of Nightblood was very limited, too.

 

As to your questions, even though maxal answered them somewhat already.  Zahel and Vasher are the same person, but Nale is someone different.  (There's a WoB that Vasher feels responsible for Nightblood's loss, which is proof that Vasher and Nale aren't the same person.)  Words of Radiance does, indeed, take place a couple centuries after Warbreaker, although the exact timeline is a little bit wobbly at current.  Stormlight is Investiture; Breaths are Investiture.  They heal in similar ways, and absolutely do not change whether someone is a Returned or not.  That'd be like saying that access to Breath would make Syl a human.

[Guest]

You do bring forward a much more detailed explanation then I kaellok    I am afraid I am not very good with the investiture thing. I need to read more Brandon's books.

[echaozh he/him]

Szeth is not a Returned. There are no Returned on Roshar except for those who have worldhopped. He was brought back to life by Nale using a fabrial. From the Lift interlude, we also know it is possible to heal partial death (as long as the brain is not dead) using the Progression surge. Therefore, Szeth is not immortal and he does not have to take breaths to survive. He has just been healed from a near fatal wound shortly before his brain went completely dead.

 

 

What if, instead of being Returned, Szeth is actually a Lifeless now? Can Nightblood kill a Lifeless?

 

I think Nightblood actually fits the Skybreakers very well. And people killing themselves leaves the Skybreakers' hands clean. I think Szeth can actually go back to Shinovar and let the Stone Shamans kill themselves and still break no law at all.

[Guest]

What if, instead of being Returned, Szeth is actually a Lifeless now? Can Nightblood kill a Lifeless?

 

I think Nightblood actually fits the Skybreakers very well. And people killing themselves leaves the Skybreakers' hands clean. I think Szeth can actually go back to Shinovar and let the Stone Shamans kill themselves and still break no law at all.

 

Nah. Lifeless are dead body brought back to life using awakening. He was just resurrected. He is back to being alive.

[kaellok he/him]

You do bring forward a much more detailed explanation then I kaellok    I am afraid I am not very good with the investiture thing. I need to read more Brandon's books.

I had plenty of time to think about my response, sitting here bored out of my mind at work while nothing is happening lol.  

 

As far as Investiture goes, though, I tend to think of it as electricity, really, just for simplicity's sake.  I  mean, there's a whole crapload of ways that it's generated, and used, and it's all for some truly amazing things--but if the system isn't rigged just right, then the way you generated your electricity is, at best, useless.  I mean, you can't take 9 volt batteries and attach them to a computer and power it.  You also shouldn't plug in your 110v computer's power supply to a 220v outlet--unless you want to see sparks, hear a fizz come from inside, and then cry when a small *poof!* of smoke jets out from the case and you realize what you've done.

[Guest]

I had plenty of time to think about my response, sitting here bored out of my mind at work while nothing is happening lol.  

 

As far as Investiture goes, though, I tend to think of it as electricity, really, just for simplicity's sake.  I  mean, there's a whole crapload of ways that it's generated, and used, and it's all for some truly amazing things--but if the system isn't rigged just right, then the way you generated your electricity is, at best, useless.  I mean, you can't take 9 volt batteries and attach them to a computer and power it.  You also shouldn't plug in your 110v computer's power supply to a 220v outlet--unless you want to see sparks, hear a fizz come from inside, and then cry when a small *poof!* of smoke jets out from the case and you realize what you've done.

 

It still was a good response    I wish I always had time to craft my responses carefully instead of rushing to press the send button because real life calls to me.

[Oudeis he/him]

Note that in the book, it is stated that he can be revived using the right fabrials, but it never did say that he is revived by fabrials. 

 

Just finished re-reading Words of Radiance, and so, I came up with this conclusions:

Szeth is dead.

Szeth is revived by XXXXX.

Szeth became a returned.

Szeth is now like the ones(I dunno) in the Warbreaker, hence, can communicate w/ Night blood.

 

Therefore, I conclude, that Szeth can now wield Nightblood and not die, because, he has now access to breaths.

 

 

Questions:

Zahel = Vasher? = Nale?

If so, Words of Radiance happened after the events in Warbreaker, a couple of Centuries ago.

If so, access to Stormlight healed Vasher, made him a mortal again, whilst having access to breaths too.

 

I would like to applaud you on your outside-of-the-box thinking. I happen to agree with the other people who have suggested that this is contraindicated by current evidence, but regardless, you considered a possibility that hadn't occurred to me, and for that I think you.

 

Please keep posting ideas!

[sun tzaro]

 

Therefore, I conclude, that Szeth can now wield Nightblood and not die, because, he has now access to breaths.

 

 

The Returned have access to one "big" Breath. If Szeth is Returned, he won't be able to draw on his single Returned Breath incrementally. So, if he were to draw Nightblood, Nightblood would consume that single breath in an instant. 

 

While it is an amusing idea, if Szeth had actually become Returned, Sanderson would have written in some mention of a change in his physical appearance. 

 

 

EDIT - Adding something to this post. Maybe I was wrong!

 

I was looking through the list of WoBs and found this: 

 

 

 

Q:  How long has Zahel been slumming it on Roshar?

A:  For quite a long time, on this planet he can get something quite easily that is much harder to get where he came from.

 

Obviously, "much harder to get" refers to Breath - Zahel is substituting Stormlight for Breath.

 

Since Zahel is merely a powerful Returned, if he can substitute Stormlight for Breath, then perhaps a Returned Szeth could do the same, which would allow him to wield Nightblood. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by sun tzaro