Scheme for the prediction of radiant knight ideals

[Dofurion]

This entry is to postulate a theoretical framework with which we can possibly predict the general theme to which the oaths taken by the orders of knights in the following books would be associated. Based on WoB's and conjectures that we can draw from the information we already have available in the books themselves.

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I would like to begin first by remembering the information that you have provided us with Szeth's points of view, where the Skybreakers explain to him how they have schematized the ideals, which would be:

1. Ideal of Radiance
2. Ideal of Justice
3. Ideal of Dedication
4. Ideal of Crusade
5. Ideal of Law

• Being the first generic ideal for all orders: “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.”
• In the second they swear to comply with the law wherever they go, this would be, so to speak, the leitmotif of this order and what differentiates it from the others.
• Third ideal, they adhere to a specific code, which they will have to follow no matter where they are.
• The fourth ideal asks you to look for something you consider unfair, and to take action to fix it.
• And finally in the fifth ideal “they become the law”, being a very abstract ideal that we can all agree with that can give many interpretations.

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Having already these bases we can proceed to compare these ideals with the next most seen from the reader's point of view, the ideals of the Windrunners.

• In the second ideal, Windrunners swear to protect, usually those who cannot themselves.
• In the third ideal, the Windrunners swear to protect in situations that they initially did not expect they would have to protect, either because they hated them in the first instance (Kalladin with the nobles), because they did not believe they deserved it (Teft with himself) or because they did not they wanted to accept that protection was required in those situations (Lopen).
• And in the last ideal that we have evidence of, the fourth ideal, here they accept that they will not be able to protect everyone.

Well, here we can see that we have a connecting thread between the different ideals:
In the second ideal, both Windrunners and Skybreakers swear to follow the main idea of their orders (Protect and follow the law respectively). This is confirmed to be the same for all orders (except Lightweavers) since we have Brandon's confirmation with the following WoB's:

Spoiler

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Brandon Sanderson

Windrunner

I will protect

Windrunner oaths are themed toward protection, particularly defending innocents or those who are unable to protect themselves.

The Windrunners tend to attract “big sibling” types, who seek to protect the defenseless, but also enjoy action and fighting for what they believe in. They’re primarily scouts, though they often work as special forces groups, able to deliver teams of Radiants behind enemy lines for secret missions. They tend to be the most like conventional soldiers, believing in structures of command, team dynamics, and the importance of a squad of brothers and sisters. They often have larger numbers of squires than other Orders and focus more than any other Order on mastering their weapons.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Skybreaker

I will seek justice

Skybreaker oaths are themed toward justice, fighting for causes, and enforcing social rules. They generally reinforce the importance of moral codes, legal structures, and similar boundaries that protect civilization.

The Skybreakers were the enforcers of the Knights Radiant, often tasked with keeping the peace, policing the other Orders, and making certain that dangerous or dark forces in the world were contained. This sometimes gave them a bad reputation among the more free-thinking Orders of Knights, but the Skybreakers (at their best) were not merciless. They were the ones who believed that nobody, not even a Radiant, should be above being questioned. They were the ones that did the sometimes tough job of making certain that the Orders didn’t abuse their power to become tyrants, as the Skybreakers saw that those with powers could easily oppress those who had none.

They tend to attract those who believe in the importance of legal code, those who have strong moral codes of their own, and those who think the best defense against anarchy are things like patriotism, moral fiber, and rules to govern behavior. Note that the current incarnation, led by the Herald Nale in his madness, is more rigid than the ancient order, which understood that the law was not perfect, but instead represented an ideal to try to reach over time. Anyone believing in finding true justice, in defending the innocent, and in punishing the guilty would be welcome in the Order.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Dustbringer

I will seek self-mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Edgedancer

I will remember

Edgedancer oaths are themed around remembering the ordinary people of the world—those who aren’t powerful generals or Radiants. Too often, the actions of the powerful have terrible effects on the people with no voice, and the Edgedancers consider it their solemn duty to remember that the people are the ones they truly serve.

The Edgedancers are known as being caring and graceful. Among the Knights Radiant, they see it as their duty to care for the people and are often less interested in war than they are about trying to improve the daily lives of the common folk. Often, a mid-sized town would have an Edgedancer or two on permanent assignment, where they’d use Regrowth to provide healing and would work for the common good of the town.

Edgedancers tend to be among the more religious of Radiants and are the Order where you’re most likely to find former religious leaders who end up bonding a spren. During wartime, they often act as the mobile medics, eschewing actual combat to heal or pull out the wounded or those trapped in terrible situations. However, there are some renowned for their graceful and skilled prowess in combat, occasionally used as scouts or special forces troops in conjunction with a team of Windrunners or Skybreakers. One should never assume the Edgedancers are in any way base just because they often ignore high society; they are renowned as some of the most refined and graceful of Radiants.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Truthwatcher

I will seek truth

Truthwatcher oaths are themed around seeking to find ultimate truth and sharing it. They are very concerned with knowledge and the proper exploitation of it. Note that this should not be confused with the Lightweavers, whose oaths are themed toward personal truths about themselves, said for reasons of self-actualization. Truthwatchers are more concerned with the fundamental truths of the universe, and whether or not those in power are being truthful with the people they lead.

The Truthwatchers are seen as quiet, largely known as the most scholarly Order of Knights Radiant. They tend to attract scientists primarily, but also scholars or thinkers of all types. This extends to some who might not normally be known as scholarly but instead as someone often consumed by their own thoughts. In general, they tend to be reserved, particularly in person, though a small minority of Truthwatchers are greatly concerned with the actions of the powerful and might be likened to investigative reporters. These make their opinions known loudly and forcefully, particularly if they think someone in power is abusing that power or lying about fundamental truths. Note that, as with all Knights Radiant, there is great disagreement within the Order about what is the truth. However, Truthwatchers tend to approach these discussions with enthusiasm, even if they generally prefer to write their opinions rather than speak them. Among the Knights Radiant, the Truthwatchers tend to be those who hold the knowledge and secrets of Surgebinding and are the ones to discover many of the newer advances in things like fabrial technology.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Lightweaver

I will speak my truth

Lightweaver oaths are an oddity, perhaps because their spren tend to be the oddest among all Radiant spren. Instead of speaking specific words, or even words along a certain theme, Lightweavers speak truths about themselves—things they must admit to themselves in order to progress as people. It is theorized that because Lightweavers live on the line between reality and fiction, it is important for them to be able to separate the real from the lie, and only with the proper ability to do so can they move forward.

Lightweavers are the Radiants most interested in the arts, including all kinds of visual arts and theater. They range widely in personality from the quiet and introspective painter to the outgoing and gregarious stage performer, with everything in between. What unites them tends to be a love of art, though there are some few who are more interested in intrigue, secrets, and espionage. They are the spies of the Knights Radiant and are often untrusted by others (such as the stoic Skybreakers) for their love of subterfuge. They have a reputation for having looser morals than other Orders, but the Lightweavers are quick to point out that their personal values are strong. They just don’t feel they need to match what other more hardline Orders tend to require. They can be vague with oaths, and many say there is far more Cultivation in them than Honor. (Others dispute this, saying that all Orders have an equal mix, despite some spren naming themselves “honorspren.”) Lightweavers tend to be free spirits, and many among their Order see the importance of entertainment, beauty, and art in a person’s life, and strive to make sure that the world doesn’t just live through the Desolations—because mere survival isn’t enough unless there is something to live for.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Elsecaller

I will reach my potential

Elsecaller oaths are, like those of the Lightweavers or Skybreakers, themed toward the individual. In this case, the theme is progress—becoming better with each oath, seeking to explore their true potential and reach it. Because of this, the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves.

Thoughtful, careful, and cautious, the Elsecallers are generally regarded as the wisest of the Radiants. They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals. This makes them one of the most open and welcoming of orders, though they do tend to attract those who are less flamboyant. They have their share of scholars, and often a large number of theologians, but also attract those who are interested in leadership. They are good at encouraging others, but some are known to set their sights upon the things they want and then seize them. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to be among the best tacticians, and are logistical geniuses, aided in part by their abilities to create food and water for armies, but also their ability to move in and out of Shadesmar.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Willshaper

I will seek freedom

The Willshapers believe strongly that all people should be free to make their own choices. Their oaths are themed toward freedom and letting people be free to express themselves and make their own way in life.

The Willshapers have a reputation for attracting builders, craftspeople, and creators to the Radiants. However, while this aspect of them is accurate, the actual membership of the Order is far more varied. Their powers lend themselves to creation, true, but their oaths are focused on freedom and personal fulfillment. Many among the Willshapers are warriors focused on freeing those who are captive, and others are focused on radical self-expression. The Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose. They are united through a love of building, but some consider the building of society to be more important than the building of structures. Among the Willshapers, you’ll find both those who dress very conservatively and those who wear very daring and original styles. The common ground is that both agree that freedom to express who you are is the important part. Among the Radiants, they are generally focused on building, training, and making infrastructure. In war, they might be sent to a town to fortify it against an oncoming invasion. Before or in the wake of Desolations, they would teach the people things like sanitation, bronzeworking, or other essentials. Anywhere you find someone resisting tyranny or oppression, you’ll often find a Willshaper cheering them on.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Stoneward

I will be there when I'm needed

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

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Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith

I will unite

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other Orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths.

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Bondsmiths are generally the heart and soul of the Radiants, the most protected and highly regarded of the Orders, capable of doing incredible things with the nature of oaths, bonds, and power. The Order, including the aforementioned squires and attendants, tends to attract the peacemakers of the world, those who want to bring people together rather than divide them.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

 

This being so, I will take the liberty of standardizing these ideals as the “Ideal of the Direction”, in which all those who join the radiant knights swear to follow the hallmark of their order.

In the third ideal, the ideal of dedication for the Skybreakers, we see that Windrunners are also asked for dedication when it comes to protecting (Protect who you hate, protect yourself, protect others from you). It is at this point where they realize how far what they want to aspire to really reaches.
Although the ideal of dedication seems like a good neutral term for all, I think “Ideal of Commitment” encompasses it quite well.

From the fourd ideal something curious arises, they are no longer asked to continue further with the theme of their order, but rather to stop. This may be one of the most counterintuitive things about ideals, but I think we have enough evidence to back it up:

• Kalladin's own fourth ideal: “I accept that there are people I will not be able to protect.”
• The record 10-12, where a knight who was in Urithiru wondered why they asked him to say that.ecord 10-12 where a knight occupying Urithiru wondered why he was asked to say that.
• The general concept of the crusade for the Skybreakers.

If you want me to justify this last point. Well, the concept of a crusade is directly against what they preach, it is an act of one's own will in which one seeks to solve things that from a personal point of view (not from the law) are wrong. As circumstantial evidence we have Szeth's own character arc, where he is going from blindly believing in the regulations and designs of others (given his trauma from being Truthless) to fully trusting his own judgment.

Therefore we could call this ideal the “Ideal of nuance”, where the radiants learn how far their oaths go and where they should stop.

As for the fifth ideal, I think we can very correctly assume that it will also be something abstract. If in the Skybreakers it is about “becoming the Law” in the following orders it may be something similar... But we still need something to finish deciphering both this fifth ideal, as well as the ideals of the other Knights Radiant, and that is to take Taking into account the Divine Attributes that the Heralds represent, ordered according to their associated number would be:

1. Protecting - Leading
2. Just - Confident
3. Brave - Obedient
4. Loving - Healing
5. Learned - Giving
6. Creative - Honest
7. Wise - Careful
8. Resolute - Builder
9. Dependable - Resourceful
10. Pious - Guiding

As we can see in the following WoB [ref] the Divine Attributes do have a certain relationship with the ideals pronounced by the radiants.

This can be seen in the case of the Skybreakers, where their second and third ideals seem to be linked to Nale's primary Divine Attribute [Just] and the fourth together with the fifth reference the secondary Divine Attribute [Confident].

The pattern seems to repeat itself with the Windrunners, where their second and third ideals seem to be tied to the main Divine Attribute of Jezrien [Protecting] and their fourth ideal may be the entry window for their ideals to be associated with the Divine Attribute of [Leading]. Thus giving us that most likely the fifth ideal of a Windrunner is “Being the Honor” instead of being something similar to “Being the Protection”.

I think that a good generic name of being the case is "ideal of incarnation."

Having sat down the bases with which to speculate, the pattern "direction-commitment-nuance-encarnación" and the divine attributes. We can move on to the following orders.

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Bondsmiths

Like the other orders, we have confirmed their second ideal, I will unite them, being the oath given by Dalinar “I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together. ” Without extending much here we see the theme of the Bondsmiths, unite, whether groups of people with their peers or apparently in the case of Navani with other aware entities.

In the third ideal we have the commitment to be adequate for the role they are about to represent. “I will take responsibility for what I have done, if I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. "
Being the central part of this oath to be a better person [ref].

We begin with the field of speculation with the Fourd ideal. As established, this ideal is the point that marks the end of the obligations of the radiant in regards to the address that the order have. So this means that for this ideal they have to accept to stop joining? Well, not exactly, if we look at the previous 2 Example what they asked for is to understand the circumstances where their previous ideals cease to be beneficial.
Here we can extrapolate a little from the Dalinar character arch, in which little by little he has been learning how to forge ties between people and to part with his war part (this with a little less results). But what is the problem of dalinating now and who must overcome yourself? Well, we have this hoid appointment:

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"Sagaz," he asked, almost without realizing it, "am I a tyrant?" Sagaz raised an eyebrow and seemed to look for a reinforcean. A moment later, he ruled out the idea. "Yes, Dalinar Kholin," he said in a low voice, comforting him, as he spoke to an crying child. You are. "I don't want to be." "With due respect, brilliant sir, that's not true at all." You are looking for power. You cling to him, and if you have to release it you do it with great difficulty.

Dalinar little by little, has become very good forging links, but not departing from them when building them. Dalinar has to create bridges, not him literally being the bridge. That is why I decided to name this the "ideal of faith" for the Bondsmiths; this is where they realize that they do not have to be supervising and managing the relationships they have forged; it is faith in these relationships.

As for the fifth ideal, my proposal is called "ideal of the ambassador", since as we established in the previous point, for a bond to be effective, Dalinar should not be part of it after it has been forged, therefore something more appropriate would be for him to personify the role of ambassador. Someone who finds commonalities in various characteristics and uses them to make relationships smoother.

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Stonewards

From now on I will stop mentioning the second ideals unless they are relevant to explain a later one, since the #SayTheWords videos are much better on the topic.

As for the third ideal, something curious arises with this order. Sanderson canonized the following ideal years ago, but did not mention which order it belonged to:

"I will stand when others fall."[Ref]

Knowing what we know today, it is clear that it is an ideal of Stoneward's, and under this scheme it fits as his third ideal since he finishes explaining what is expected of them when they are where they are needed.

In the fourd ideal would find an obvious symmetry with the Windrunners, if for them it is accepting that they cannot protect everyone, in the case of the Stonewards it would be accepting that they cannot be in all the places where they are needed. Continuing with the relationship of the Divine Attributes with the ideals, we could argue that one of the variations of this ideal could be something like:

"I accept that I will not always be able to be where I am needed, so I will prepare others to be there in my absence.”"

Finally, we don't know the Stonewards enough to infer their fifth Ideal, but if we were to bet on one, it would be something like the “ideal of the warrior."

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Willshapers

The third ideal of the Willshapers should deepen their search for the freedom of others, perhaps in this case, as in the case of the Windrunners, it is the search for freedom even for those who at first did not believe it was necessary or Due to their specific situation they would not want to release. I decided to call it “ideal of equanimity.”

Your fourth ideal should be a limitation for this call to liberate, and since the second associated Divine Attribute is [Builder], the idea arises that this ideal is the reflection of a phrase well known in our real world: “Your freedom ends.” where someone else’s begins.” In this, the Willshaper understands that as much as freedom is an important value and a noble objective, there are times when it is deserved that a person be deprived of it, if he or she acts against the freedom of another. We could say that this is the “ideal of society.”

Regarding your fifth ideal, seeing how it develops in the previous 3, perhaps it is a call to be a guide for others. The one who ensures the correct development of society and shows a proposal of how it could be following the values of freedom, but who still has his feet on the ground rocks, and knows that certain limitations must be placed so that everyone has access to said freedom. The “ideal of guidance.”

 

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Elsecallers

With the Elsecallers it seems that we have a situation somewhat similar to that of the Skybreakers, although in their second Ideal they seem to generically swear to seek to reach their potential, in the third from what we see in their video it seems that they select a specific topic to which dedicate themselves, this mechanic may be influenced by the time limitation that any conventional living being has (remembering that this invested art is designed for humans in principle) and the Divine Attribute of [Sage] that forces them to focus on something to achieve mastery in the same. The “ideal of specialization”.

Continuing with his fourth ideal, precisely with this order his secondary Divine Attribute [Careful] perfectly aligns with the need to place a limit. I think it is not necessary to explain much more about this ideal.

Note: Before taking into account the Divine Attributes for this scheme, I wanted to give this ideal the name “ideal of collaboration” since the Elsecallers are most likely the order that cannot have squires [ref] and since Their nature would tend to try to do everything on their own, I thought they would need to learn to work as a team and learn to accept help from others.

Their fifth ideal would also be interesting, since being so differentiated from each other, it is most likely that upon reaching the fifth ideal they will already embody the ideal version associated with the profession or pursuit they chose.

 

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Lightweavers

TRUTHS

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Truthwatchers

The third ideal of Truthwatchers most likely has to do with accepting uncomfortable truths for themselves. This is consistent with the current narrative as this order is prone to attracting religious devotees. In the current situation of the Vorin kingdoms there is a lot of play, since they will probably end up publishing all the changes that the Hierocracy made to their religion and the existence (and possible acceptance) of Cultivation would once again enter the public domain.

As for its fourth ideal, I have two proposals since I have not been able to fit the second Divine Attribute [Giving] with the pattern that the fourth ideal has followed:

• Ideal of the Teacher?: Basically it would be an oath to teach these truths to people. I highly doubt that this is the case since in the #SayTheWorlds video they mention something that suggests that they already do this as a basic thing.
• Ideal of Secretism?: In this version they would accept that there are truths that cannot be disclosed. It doesn't seem like a good direction to me, but in their favor they have the data that has been collected from the board game, and given that it has been approved by Brandon...

I name the fifth ideal as the “ideal of erudition” since the theme of this order is closely related to this (much more than the Elsecallers as we already saw).

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Edgedancers

We have already seen the second and third ideals of the Edgedancers firsthand thanks to Lift, remembering those who have been forgotten and listening to those who are not heard is very much in tune with the first Divine Attribute of [Loving] and the third It is a greater commitment than the second.

Taking into account the pattern established in the ideals and the Divine Attribute [Healing], I sense that his fourth ideal revolves around forgetting. If we take into account Lift's character arc, it may be that for her it is making the decision to forget the search for her mother (just speculation), forgetting things that do us more harm than good and impede the internal development of the radiant, something like that like Dalinar and his situation with the memory of Evi.

As for the fifth ideal, I chose to call it the “ideal of the legend” because what better way to personify a memory than to be a legend.
I have some other reasons to think this is the case, but they are heavily influenced by personal opinions.

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Dustbringers

Finally, the Dustbringers... to be honest, this is the order that was most difficult for me to fit into this scheme, their second ideal calls them towards the search for self-mastery and the truth is I can't think of how to go deeper into that for their third ideal, Added that the Divine Attribute that should play for these first 2 is [Brave].

As for the fourth and fifth, it becomes more complicated since unlike the third, they fit together too well. Since the fourth tends to be a counterpart to the second and that the second Divine Attribute for this order is [Obedient], could they give up their autonomy in this ideal? Is it something like the reverse version of the Skybreakers situation? where the Skybreakers follow a code of conduct (Law) and as they progress they gain confidence in themselves and their own points of view. Do the Dustbringers begin by acquiring mastery over themselves and then handing it over to someone else?

The truth is, even if my scheme turns out to be close to reality, I think that in this last order it surely fails since it is the one about which we have the least information. It's worth mentioning that Sanderson has been especially cryptic about them, since we have even more information on the Truthwatchers (Not for nothing in his corresponding video, Senne Khald mentions that he's never actually met any).

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Summary

Well as final thoughts, this has been a very entertaining exercise in theories. The truth is, I think we don't need much to have the official versions since the board game will be published soon. Without anything else to add, I look forward to your comments

 

Wow, I didn't expect it to actually be published in page format.

Edited February 26, 2024 by Dofurion

[Faerie Braids she/her]

This is a very interesting theory! I particularly love how your proposed "Ideal of Faith" for Bondsmiths contrasts with how Dalinar can struggle with letting others take control or responsibility of situations (Elhokar, Renarin, etc.); he must accept that he cannot directly manage everything before he can progress.

[Zapata]

I thought of this as well, although I think you put it into words better than I would have. The first Divine Attribute also draws the spren in the first place, I would add. One other thing though, is that following Shallan's arc, I think that the Lightweaver Truths also follow the direction, commitment, nuance, incarnation pattern guided by the divine attributes. Not necessarily in their character, but in their effects on Shallan. The Truth progression is that her first truth solidified her bond to Pattern (maybe), her second showed her commitment to the Truths, and her third (where she reintegrated Veil) showed nuance by not having her integrate Radiant. Furthermore, Cryptics are naturally drawn to people who lie to themselves (Creative), and the Truths help the Lightweaver embrace honesty. 

[aetherbound he/him]

I think the lightweaver ideals might also follow that pattern, based on which truths they are.

Edited February 26, 2024 by Aetherbound
Ninja'd

[Dofurion]

15 hours ago, Faerie Braids said:

This is a very interesting theory! I particularly love how your proposed "Ideal of Faith" for Bondsmiths contrasts with how Dalinar can struggle with letting others take control or responsibility of situations (Elhokar, Renarin, etc.); he must accept that he cannot directly manage everything before he can progress.

It's good that you liked it. And continuing along this line of thought, Kalladin's 5th oath would be something like:

"I accept the honor of leading them, even if it requires them to protect me."

1 hour ago, Zapata said:

I thought of this as well, although I think you put it into words better than I would have. The first Divine Attribute also draws the spren in the first place, I would add. One other thing though, is that following Shallan's arc, I think that the Lightweaver Truths also follow the direction, commitment, nuance, incarnation pattern guided by the divine attributes. Not necessarily in their character, but in their effects on Shallan. The Truth progression is that her first truth solidified her bond to Pattern (maybe), her second showed her commitment to the Truths, and her third (where she reintegrated Veil) showed nuance by not having her integrate Radiant. Furthermore, Cryptics are naturally drawn to people who lie to themselves (Creative), and the Truths help the Lightweaver embrace honesty. 

Yes, I saw it too. But the "truths" joke is too good to pass up.

Edited February 26, 2024 by Dofurion

[AlastorBM He]

Hi, I literally made an account on the forum to answer this. If you allow me the contribution.

My contribution is about the Dustbringers and their ideals. For the third and taking into account the second (self-mastery), the most natural path seems to me to be knowing your strengths, weaknesses and limitations, what is improving but knowing yourself at these levels? If I remember correctly, they get their second power at the same level as the Skybreakers, so it makes sense that they would have to have extensive knowledge of themselves in order to use their powers.

What would come next? You can be responsible for your capabilities and what to do with them. But for an order that enjoys separating and disassembling things, which is not a bad thing in itself. Now for oaths four and five, this disposition and guard, within the "obedient" quality. It is more complicated, we can refer to the specific use of abilities, for what purpose, for whom, for what reason, since they already have their abilities, they should use them for a greater good, that is, for someone else. It could be something like:

"I will put the best of me at the service of others"

The fifth is even more complicated to fit, but since it refers to “guard”. What would it be protecting? I will think about it more thoroughly, for now I like to think that the ultimate ideal is to help others progress, after the arduous path of personal growth, of the lessons learned, what better than sharing it, than setting an example, giving being Something like:

“We can be better, I will be the example of change that I want to see”

or maby with other context

"I will bring out the best of you" -  "we will bring out the best of you"

Finally, I would qualify the “obedient” part with a little “courage.”

*Obedience does not necessarily imply a lack of decision making. Sometimes it takes courage to make difficult decisions and obey a set of principles or values even when the easier option might be to deviate.

*Obedience can be based on trust and respect for an authority or set of rules that are considered fair. In such cases, courage can be manifested by trusting those rules and obeying them even in difficult circumstances.

*Sometimes obedience can require courage to be authentic and true to oneself. This might involve communicating honestly when you disagree or when an action goes against your values.

I really liked your post! It's a lot of effort and I hope my contribution helps you. I hope you add the missing oaths and if my contribution helps you, how would you interpret them.

My English is not very good but I hope I made myself understood.

Edited March 1, 2024 by alastorBM

[Dofurion]

On 3/1/2024 at 7:44 PM, alastorBM said:

Hi, I literally made an account on the forum to answer this. If you allow me the contribution.

Hello, I'm glad you liked it

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:44 PM, alastorBM said:

For the third and taking into account the second (self-mastery), the most natural path seems to me to be knowing your strengths, weaknesses and limitations, what is improving but knowing yourself at these levels? If I remember correctly, they get their second power at the same level as the Skybreakers, so it makes sense that they would have to have extensive knowledge of themselves in order to use their powers.

I also thought of something similar. But it seems to me that it still falls within the description of the 2nd Ideal

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:44 PM, alastorBM said:

The fifth is even more complicated to fit, but since it refers to “guard”. What would it be protecting? I will think about it more thoroughly, for now I like to think that the ultimate ideal is to help others progress, after the arduous path of personal growth, of the lessons learned, what better than sharing i

I like this idea, but I think it overlaps with the Stonewards theme.

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:44 PM, alastorBM said:

My English is not very good but I hope I made myself understood.

Don't worry, we are the same XD

[Miracordius]

 

Love speculating about the Dustbringers. I latched onto the attribute of obedience with an comic book inspiration.

2. I will seek self-mastery (I use the power, not the other way around)

3. I will never use my power in haste or anger (I will always consider the unintended consequences)

4. Power alone is meaningless, I will use it in service of others (with great power comes great responsibilities)

5. Ideal of Spiderman (Selfless self-sacrificing superhero)

[AlastorBM He]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:19 PM, Miracordius said:

Love speculating about the Dustbringers. I latched onto the attribute of obedience with an comic book inspiration

Very good ideas! I couldn't agree more with number four,  sounds like someone who is going very far on his path.

I really like this topic. I would like to add a couple that occurred to me 

2. My emotions will not control me; I will be their master instead of their prisoner

3. I will value the experiences of others, knowing that strength lies in understanding.

5. My duty is to safeguard what is valuable, keeping hope alive.

I am very curious about the ideals of this order. Almost as much as those of the stonewards, I should think of some and bring them to the topic.

 

[Dofurion]

@AlastorBM and @Miracordius Thanks for showing interest in the post, I plan to update it after the publication of Wind and Truth. But there is something interesting that I found in a Netflix series, which although it has nothing to do with the Cosmere, presents one of the phrases that I honestly believe is the closest thing to what could (under my scheme) be the 4th Ideal of the Truthwatchers.

Spoiler

"The truth is everything, but before you share it, consider whether you are giving the person you are telling it to clarity and purpose, or, on the contrary, you are taking away their value when they need it most."

It fits with both of my choices for that ideal.

 

I will update this post as soon as it is prudent, but anyway, if you have more opinions, I would like to read them.

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

Love this theory! I myself have been thinking about the ideals a lot, especially the fifth ideal, and what I came up with was a little different. I think that the fifth ideal is less about exemplifying qualities, and more about personal choice.

On 2/26/2024 at 1:43 PM, Dofurion said:

"I accept the honor of leading them, even if it requires them to protect me."

I feel like this is a little too off topic compared to the other oaths, and doesn’t really match with the sky breaker fifth ideal. With their fifth ideal, the skybreakers “become the law.” While this could be interpreted as an incarnation of Nale’s divine qualities, I think the more important piece of it is the radiant making their own choices about what justice is and what it looks like, making their own code, in a way. I see this more as an ideal of ascension than incarnation.

For this reason, I believe the fifth ideal of the wind runners should also be about a radiant’s choice and setting their own code. Most importantly, it is about trusting their judgement, something Kaladin has always struggled with.

My theory for this oath is: 

“I will choose how and who to protect, and trust my judgement.”

I made another post about this if you would like to check it out:

 

[AlastorBM He]

On 10/27/2024 at 7:53 PM, Dofurion said:

Thanks for showing interest in the post, I plan to update it after the publication of Wind and Truth. But there is something interesting that I found in a Netflix series, which although it has nothing to do with the Cosmere, presents one of the phrases that I honestly believe is the closest thing to what could (under my scheme) be the 4th Ideal of the Truthwatchers.

You're welcome, the topic of ideals always catches my attention.

I think it's great that you take inspiration from other sources. The ideal sounds very good for the order, it is wise and invites us to reflect a lot on when it is prudent to tell the truth. 

On a separate topic and thinking out loud. I am very curious that the orders of Truthwatchers and Lightweavers share the theme of truths. They will complement each other very well in terms of personal growth.

I look forward to you updating the topic. I still have to read Wind and Truth so I'm holding off a bit until I finish.