The Song of Ice and Fire

[Meg]

Well, in regards to sex specifically, I side with Brandon because detailed sex scenes serve no storytelling purpose. First and foremost, Brandon tells stories - and from this point of view describing what Dalinar and Navani (or any other couple) do in at night is pointless. It was strongly implied that they slept together, but only because Dalinar's last vision took him mere minutes after that, as they were in bed. Though I agree that Vin and Elend came out a little too platonic - Siri and Susebron were handled better.

 

 

 

I'm with you here. I didn't in any way miss to know whether Vin and Elend had sex or not. It's totally not necessary.

 

 

 

But the vast majority of those things could have been done as internal monologue and character conflict after the fact. You don't need to show me Tyrion's bedding mechanics with every whore in King's Landing if you want me to understand that he cares about love. In fact, I don't need any of that. The way he thinks about his first love, and to a lesser extent how he thinks about Shae and Sansa, is enough.

 

Agree.

 

Reasonable. You can get the same ideas across in multiple ways, some subtler than others. GRRM chose sex, and I am certainly not arguing that anyone has to like it. I also think that a similar argument can be made for the fighting in something like Mistborn - did we really have to see a flayed corpse with its skull crushed? Vin's horror could be shown after the fact. (1)

(...)

 

Everyone finding sex much more shocking than descriptions of death and sadness is an artifact of our culture, and I can't help but find it interesting because I feel it myself. This sort of thing is part of why I read fantasy novels.

 

On a side note, I don't believe Tyrion ever actually has a sex scene with any whores in King's Landing besides Shae. He certainly talks to whores, and some are beaten by Cersei because she thinks he's visiting them, but I don't recall any sex. I think that the sex scenes seem more numerous than they are simply because they're moderately shocking. I wonder if anyone's counted them? (2)

 

(1) Here I agree, too. Some of the fighting-scenes in Mistborn are -- for my feeling -- described in too much details. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Mistborn (though it's interesting in regard of Cosmere-"knowledge").

 

(2) It has been a while since I've read ASoIaF but I'm sure that there is not only "one" sex scene described regarding Tyrion. But I will not re-read it know for bringing evidence.

 

 

 

 Problem is that would ruin all the mystery and careful plotting Martin is trying to set up by leaving things intentionally vague or unclear, much like Brandon does  (1)

 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree some of the sex scenes are over the top (and some of the gratuitous rape and torture references as well, and ADWD had two scenes that really irked me for the sheer grotesqueness of them, but even I admitted they were necessary as world building and characterization purposes) but I personally think he has a point when saying they are necessary in describing the human condition. (2)

(...)

 

 

The two serve cross purposes for me. Martin reminds me of the gritty dirty nasty reality of the world and how humans can be bastards (but also well meaning and ultimately good doing ones as well, see Dany (3), (...)

 

 

(1) I'm not sure about this. He's good in plotting and I think if he decided so, he could have done very good and better readable books without that lots of violence and sex.

 

(2) I admit that I haven't read the second half of the fifth book yet, so: Dany is "ultimately good"? Does she change in this last part? She might be "well meaning" (trying to get her realm back) but good? There's a lot of destruction following her way to Westeros, isn't it?

 

-------

 

@Jaime and Jersey: That's not love, that never was love. They are siblings -- twins, IIRC -- I'm sure their "relationship" aside from being siblings was only about sex.

 

You see, I agree with Aetae about what love is. Love between people isn't at all about sex. It's much more deeper. Sex doesn't need love. As we see with Jaime and Jersey and the existence of prostitutes throughout human history.

[EC11 he/him]

(1) I'm not sure about this. He's good in plotting and I think if he decided so, he could have done very good and better readable books without that lots of violence and sex.

 

(2) I admit that I haven't read the second half of the fifth book yet, so: Dany is "ultimately good"? Does she change in this last part? She might be "well meaning" (trying to get her realm back) but good? There's a lot of destruction following her way to Westeros, isn't it?

 

(1) Ah but here we get to the differing perspectives that authors have of both the world in general, and how to tell a story. Martin is most assuredly not what we would call a G rated author. He is of the personal opinion that the real world can be brutal and nasty just like it can be full of love and hope. If you will pardon the expression I think he believes in not 'bullshitting' a reader. How accurate that is depends on the reader of course. 

 

His own opinion is that he is detracting from the story to not show the nitty gritty of all the details people might not want to see. It's just his view and style.

 

(2) Dany is in her heart and actions a well meaning person, she tries to do good and do just acts (though let's be honest, the idea of justice is very different in a medieval setting from our modern one) but her good acts may not necessarily have the best outcomes, and since she is essentially a very young child with the mantle of leadership thrust upon her, she is of course prone to some fairly hideous mistakes and lapses in judgement.

 

It's just like Robb Stark, he tries to do what is honorable, but due to both his lack of political experience and his youth he makes many 'good' choices, which are ultimately the wrong choices in terms of realpolitik and practicality. 

 

The only character who I would say is ultimately a 'Good' in the series is Bran Stark, who has so far not made any nebulous moral decisions. Jon Snow is a close second since many of his morally dubious actions are thrust upon him my authority and circumstance.

[Moogle]

Vague spoilers for ADWD:

 

(2) I admit that I haven't read the second half of the fifth book yet, so: Dany is "ultimately good"? Does she change in this last part? She might be "well meaning" (trying to get her realm back) but good? There's a lot of destruction following her way to Westeros, isn't it?

 

This question is central to ADWD. The entirety of Mereen bored me, but I recently read an essay on the arc that let me see it in a new light. The interesting thing is that she tried to bring peace to Mereen, but the compromises she had to do left a bitter taste in her mouth. She felt like she failed, when she succeeded. Mereen was at peace for a while, and all signs pointed to it continuing.

 

And yet, at the end of the novel, she decides to give it up. She embraces fire and blood. She's done with peace, and she is going to be a conquering warlord, damnation the innocents who are hurt along the way.

 

So... is she good? I don't think any character in ASOIAF is wholly good or wholly evil, as it were (though a case could be made for the Boltons, and Ned, who was so stupid that he may as well have been trying to maliciously screw over everything). Dany, I think, is quickly falling from her pedestal as the breaker of chains down to the more 'evil' side of the scale. We will see, though. Say what you will about Martin, the man can do some excellent character development. I'm still not sure why I don't hate Jaime. Seriously, I feel I understand perfectly why he threw a kid out of a window. It's very weird.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Moogle

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I'm not trying to defend incest, it's obviously gross and weird. And that's the only thing twisted about their love. If Jamie and Cersei were any two other people, everyone would accept it and understand that they were deeply in love. At least Jamie loved her. He threw a 9-year-old out of a window for her, for christsakes. But what he actually felt for her, when you read his chapters later on when he starts to change, you understand he deeply and truly cared for Cersei. He loved her. Cersei was just the power hungry crazy lady who always wanted a penis, basically. So I won't say that she loved him back in the same, thats just cause she was a cold-hearted wench.

And hey, the Targyreans did it for hundreds of years, so it's not like they were the first people to bang their siblings ever. They even had precedent.
Jamie is just one of my favorite characters, and just the development you see him go through the books is amazing. But I think it's just kind of silly to disclaim a certain characters emotions just because of your judgment of their situation. You don't like it? That's fine. Doesn't mean it isn't real.

[Meg]

Fortunately I don't mind being (kind of) silly. And unfortunately I mostly disagree with your post. But it's about feelings and observations, so nothing objectively seen and it's not worth debating about sentimental impressions.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Not sure where to post this so I will say it here...

Did anyone else find the ASOIAF story in Dangerous Women to be INCREDIBLY boring? I get that it was supposed to be in the style of a dry historical account (boy did it succeed) but man what a snooze. I was very disappointed that GRRM Put forth such a meager effort in his own anthology.

[Iredomi]

I definitely see it working for some people more than others, I have yet to read it seeing as I am in an very Cosmere mood of late but history is something that interests me quite a lot and seeing personality and bias creep through into a document as the first couple of pages suggests is very interesting to me. But yeah I think it was a stupid story to release in an anthology he should of just stuck with his original plan which would have probably been a lot more interesting for most people. Of course I still haven't finished A Clash of KIngs yet... I have no problems with GRRM either his writing his beautiful, his characters very real and his world building superb and subtle, but yeah I think it has been seeing Game of Thrones that has made me not as excited about the plot. Knowing even the broad strokes of what is going to happen normally doesn't turn me off a series but I guess I'm just Cosmere obsessed and find very little time for other books, even though none of the Cosmere books are my favorite books... hmm I wonder what it is about them that I love so much...

Edit: Past self you are an idiot! It's the crazy interconnectedness and insane depth of the systems Brandon creates that you love so much. Along with strong characters and well defined and unique settings and not to mention his prose is getting better all the time. Why wouldn't love it? Gosh didn't think I would have to explain it to you of all people...

Edited December 16, 2013 by Iredomi

[The Rooster he/him]

I'm currently reading the Dangerous Women short story and it's rough.  I  love it and really enjoy reading it, but I read it in bed before sleep and it puts me RIGHT to sleep.  I think I have like 15 pages left and get through one a night.  It really makes dragons seem awful tho, right?  I mean jeez they are bad for the small folk and everyone non on one(and some of the people on them as well).

[EC11 he/him]

Not sure where to post this so I will say it here...

Did anyone else find the ASOIAF story in Dangerous Women to be INCREDIBLY boring? I get that it was supposed to be in the style of a dry historical account (boy did it succeed) but man what a snooze. I was very disappointed that GRRM Put forth such a meager effort in his own anthology.

 

Actually I found it fascinating, though that's probably the history buff in me who loves these kinds of historical accounts. It just expands on the world which ASOIAF fans love to devour and gives us insight into something which killed most of the Targaryen dragons. To me it was wonderful and really fleshed out the world that I've come to love and had all the great hallmarks of dark fantasy that I enjoy.

 

This of course is also something that would be divisive to normal readers of ASOIAF who love his story telling (which I don't think suffered at all for the style he put it in) and not the history, and those who love reading about Westeros and its history.

 

I'm currently reading the Dangerous Women short story and it's rough.  I  love it and really enjoy reading it, but I read it in bed before sleep and it puts me RIGHT to sleep.  I think I have like 15 pages left and get through one a night.  It really makes dragons seem awful tho, right?  I mean jeez they are bad for the small folk and everyone non on one(and some of the people on them as well).

 

To me it just makes them like what I would imagine dragons to be like if we actually had to live with them, gigantic terrifying monsters that breathe fire and are capable of really doing as they please   the fact that they even let people ride them should seem unbelievable!

[Quiver he/him]

I'm pretty sure that reading with the thought "By the time I'm done this he'll have the next book done" is a universal constant.

I like ASOIAF, but it has a feeling of history with fantasy in it, whereas Way of Kings is fantasy with a history; I'm sure most books can be rated on a scale between those. Anyway, while I like the books, I have to confess I'm not emotionally invested in them. I find them fascinating, and thoroughly enjoy the characters- but I can't love them. The Red Wedding struck me as a big moment, but I didn't weep over it. My favourite characters are fairly terrible people, either being broken cowards (Theon) or delusional romantics(Sansa). I find them interesting to read, but I don't like them on a personal level.

[Tamzin Ashevai she/her]

Interesting perspective, Wit.  As far as ASoIaF is concerned, for me it's all about characters, some of whom in which I'm invested (i.e.:  Arya, Daenerys), some of whom in which I believe remain integral to the entire arch (i.e.:  Tyrion, John Snow).  Granted, this is just my interested opinion and with regard to TWoK (& The Stormlight Archive as a whole ... eventually), I totally agree that it "is fantasy with a history."  Nicely stated, btw.