insert_anagram_here Posted January 11, 2024 Posted January 11, 2024 Could it been Riina? She obviously Lightweaves? And would that mean that some of the Midnight Essence travelled to Roshar ( maybe in exchange for the water there?) and was somehow Invested by Odium's Shard?
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted January 11, 2024 Posted January 11, 2024 I don't think the Midnight Essence(s) are that directly related as Brandon said before that similar things get called similar words, just like Lightweaving is called the same regardless of magics used But I think the biggest issue would be timeline related. Midnight Essence on Roshar showed up in the desolations which are thousands of years before the published Elantris novels based on most Cosmere thought/timelines I've seen. I suppose it's possible that Riina is that old, but I kind of doubt it (potential) Spoilers in this WoB Spoiler Comatose Kind of a similar question about the Midnight Essence, now that we have seen that crop up in Tress as well as in Stormlight Archive. Is something similar happening with the Midnight Essence? We have also the nightmares, in Yumi, that appear similar, they're also mimicking things. Brandon Sanderson So, there's a couple of things getting interwoven here. The actual idea of Midnight Essence is a concept like Lightweaving that predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, that various magic systems are basically "borrowing" a law of the cosmere and creating a parallel effect from the same basis, if that makes any sense. Yumi is a little distinct from that. It's feeling similar; I would not call it true Midnight Essence. It's an awful lot more like a Lightweaving that has--because Lightweavings can have mass to them, because investiture can have mass to it--so you're looking a little bit more like... imagine a bunch of Stormlight becoming tangible, you can touch it, because of a powerful Lightweaving or something like that. Of course, these things all bleed together because I'm using the same fundamental principles to make them. But, for me, Midnight Essence has this personality that comes prefixed. What the Midnight Mother is making, what you're seeing in the Midnight Sea and things like this, you're gonna get some similar personalities to these things, and not necessarily the same with the nightmares. Comatose So it's more of a autonomous-- a Lightweaving that's become autonomous and has kind of broken down a bit? Brandon Sanderson Yeah... the problem is it's also got the Cognitive Shadow, right? It's a really invested Cognitive Shadow that is borrowing this Investiture to interact with the world. Because these are their shadows; these are their Cognitive Shadows, all of these people's Cognitive Shadows. But the power is not themselves. Remember, a Cognitive Shadow is a little bit like a fossil, like Vasher describes it. You've got this pattern there, and then the power kind of makes it manifest and be able to interact, and things like that. And, when that personality asserts itself with that power in the right place, you end up with a person that is the shadow running it. But at the same time, you've got this mass of power and energy that the machine is kind of controlling, which pulls back and overrides the personality sometimes. You've got a very weird set of circumstances going on here. But it was very fun to figure out all the backstory and the behind on it, and get it all working. This one was a little complex, to get these things all working behind the scenes. I like how they turned out. Yumi, if you dig into it, it has both pluses and minuses. The minuses is - from the beta readers and the alpha readers - the ending for non-arcanists was really overwhelming, which is why we have those Hoid scenes where he's like, "Okay, let me explain." It seems pretty obvious, I would expect that this is, like, "Alright, Brandon needs to do better explanations, Hoid's just gonna do it." But, because of all the work I did behind the scenes on Yumi, Yumi matches kind of cosmerological magic system stuff in ways that a lot of the side projects that I do just don't. Yumi is very deeply intertwined and following all of these processes in a way that works really well for me. But it also gets you into where you start to need a master's degree in the cosmere to figure it all out, which is why to make it easier, we have Hoid just spell it out for people. It is a little clunky; I prefer the clunkiness to the previous version where you needed a master's degree in the cosmere to understand even what was going on. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) 3
Duxredux he/him Posted January 11, 2024 Posted January 11, 2024 Elantrians have a version of Lightweaving at the very least in the personal disguise department with Raoden using a heavily modified Aon Shao to become Kaloo the Dula. If Riina was the Lightweaver that spooked Re-Shephir then one of two things has to occur: She has to be able to use AonDor on Roshar. This isn't impossible, but figuring out how to use AonDor away from Sel requires advancements that I'm not sure if we fully understand how the mechanics work. Moonlight demonstrates this in TLM and and Riina can use AonDor when rockets, laptops, and tablets with video chat are around. As Era 2 of Mistborn comes after SA5 with the Catacendre about 300 years prior to where we are currently are in SA, it should be noted that Riina was hanging out on the perimeter of Scadrial's Cognitive realm with the rest of the Ire hoping to poach the Shard of Preservation. I think this may also line up with the 10 year time period when the Reod broke Elantris, but I'm iffy on that one. I don't remember anyone using AonDor directly in Secret History, but using it in the Cognitive Realm might have non-trivial complications. Now maybe, maybe the Ire were watching for Honor's death the same way they were watching for Preservation's demise, but clearly no Ire Ascended to Honor. Overall it seems like a pretty long shot to me. Alternately Riina would have to bond either a Mistspren or Cryptic to gain access to Lightweaving and have maintained the bond up to TotES if we're assuming that she's Lightweaving via Surgebinding in the scene with Lightweaving. Also possible, but again using a mechanism we don't understand yet and seems improbable since she would likely have needed to bond a spren pre-Rrecreance. Notably we also see no full humanoid-sized Rosharan spren hanging around Riina during Mistborn Secret History. Odds are, the false Charlie was just wearing an Aon Shao disguise using the original Charlie as a model and that she had nothing to do with Re-Shephir. It's the simplest answer that doesn't require any more hacking of systems than what we've already seen from Riina. 1
insert_anagram_here Posted January 11, 2024 Author Posted January 11, 2024 4 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: I don't think the Midnight Essence(s) are that directly related as Brandon said before that similar things get called similar words, just like Lightweaving is called the same regardless of magics used But I think the biggest issue would be timeline related. Midnight Essence on Roshar showed up in the desolations which are thousands of years before the published Elantris novels based on most Cosmere thought/timelines I've seen. I suppose it's possible that Riina is that old, but I kind of doubt it (potential) Spoilers in this WoB Reveal hidden contents Comatose Kind of a similar question about the Midnight Essence, now that we have seen that crop up in Tress as well as in Stormlight Archive. Is something similar happening with the Midnight Essence? We have also the nightmares, in Yumi, that appear similar, they're also mimicking things. Brandon Sanderson So, there's a couple of things getting interwoven here. The actual idea of Midnight Essence is a concept like Lightweaving that predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, that various magic systems are basically "borrowing" a law of the cosmere and creating a parallel effect from the same basis, if that makes any sense. Yumi is a little distinct from that. It's feeling similar; I would not call it true Midnight Essence. It's an awful lot more like a Lightweaving that has--because Lightweavings can have mass to them, because investiture can have mass to it--so you're looking a little bit more like... imagine a bunch of Stormlight becoming tangible, you can touch it, because of a powerful Lightweaving or something like that. Of course, these things all bleed together because I'm using the same fundamental principles to make them. But, for me, Midnight Essence has this personality that comes prefixed. What the Midnight Mother is making, what you're seeing in the Midnight Sea and things like this, you're gonna get some similar personalities to these things, and not necessarily the same with the nightmares. Comatose So it's more of a autonomous-- a Lightweaving that's become autonomous and has kind of broken down a bit? Brandon Sanderson Yeah... the problem is it's also got the Cognitive Shadow, right? It's a really invested Cognitive Shadow that is borrowing this Investiture to interact with the world. Because these are their shadows; these are their Cognitive Shadows, all of these people's Cognitive Shadows. But the power is not themselves. Remember, a Cognitive Shadow is a little bit like a fossil, like Vasher describes it. You've got this pattern there, and then the power kind of makes it manifest and be able to interact, and things like that. And, when that personality asserts itself with that power in the right place, you end up with a person that is the shadow running it. But at the same time, you've got this mass of power and energy that the machine is kind of controlling, which pulls back and overrides the personality sometimes. You've got a very weird set of circumstances going on here. But it was very fun to figure out all the backstory and the behind on it, and get it all working. This one was a little complex, to get these things all working behind the scenes. I like how they turned out. Yumi, if you dig into it, it has both pluses and minuses. The minuses is - from the beta readers and the alpha readers - the ending for non-arcanists was really overwhelming, which is why we have those Hoid scenes where he's like, "Okay, let me explain." It seems pretty obvious, I would expect that this is, like, "Alright, Brandon needs to do better explanations, Hoid's just gonna do it." But, because of all the work I did behind the scenes on Yumi, Yumi matches kind of cosmerological magic system stuff in ways that a lot of the side projects that I do just don't. Yumi is very deeply intertwined and following all of these processes in a way that works really well for me. But it also gets you into where you start to need a master's degree in the cosmere to figure it all out, which is why to make it easier, we have Hoid just spell it out for people. It is a little clunky; I prefer the clunkiness to the previous version where you needed a master's degree in the cosmere to understand even what was going on. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) Not sure about the timeline theory thing, I'll look into it. Either way, Re-Shepir and Midnight Mother from Dalinar's Vision might not even be the same entity. As TOTES shows Midnight Essenses can be autonomous and afaik the Unmade were 'ummade' at a later stage. 3 hours ago, Duxredux said: Elantrians have a version of Lightweaving at the very least in the personal disguise department with Raoden using a heavily modified Aon Shao to become Kaloo the Dula. If Riina was the Lightweaver that spooked Re-Shephir then one of two things has to occur: She has to be able to use AonDor on Roshar. This isn't impossible, but figuring out how to use AonDor away from Sel requires advancements that I'm not sure if we fully understand how the mechanics work. Moonlight demonstrates this in TLM and and Riina can use AonDor when rockets, laptops, and tablets with video chat are around. As Era 2 of Mistborn comes after SA5 with the Catacendre about 300 years prior to where we are currently are in SA, it should be noted that Riina was hanging out on the perimeter of Scadrial's Cognitive realm with the rest of the Ire hoping to poach the Shard of Preservation. I think this may also line up with the 10 year time period when the Reod broke Elantris, but I'm iffy on that one. I don't remember anyone using AonDor directly in Secret History, but using it in the Cognitive Realm might have non-trivial complications. Now maybe, maybe the Ire were watching for Honor's death the same way they were watching for Preservation's demise, but clearly no Ire Ascended to Honor. Overall it seems like a pretty long shot to me. Alternately Riina would have to bond either a Mistspren or Cryptic to gain access to Lightweaving and have maintained the bond up to TotES if we're assuming that she's Lightweaving via Surgebinding in the scene with Lightweaving. Also possible, but again using a mechanism we don't understand yet and seems improbable since she would likely have needed to bond a spren pre-Rrecreance. Notably we also see no full humanoid-sized Rosharan spren hanging around Riina during Mistborn Secret History. Odds are, the false Charlie was just wearing an Aon Shao disguise using the original Charlie as a model and that she had nothing to do with Re-Shephir. It's the simplest answer that doesn't require any more hacking of systems than what we've already seen from Riina. No, I meant what we saw in TotES was the actual capturing Re-Shephir remembers. Then 'freed' at the ending of the book, it somehow travels to Roshar and gets invested by Odium to become the Unmade.
Duxredux he/him Posted January 11, 2024 Posted January 11, 2024 34 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: No, I meant what we saw in TotES was the actual capturing Re-Shephir remembers. Then 'freed' at the ending of the book, it somehow travels to Roshar and gets invested by Odium to become the Unmade. So... you're suggesting that TotES is a prequel to the Stormlight Archive? I was having trouble getting the chronology to match up assuming Riina was a contemporary of the current Era, let alone an ancient precursor, which I assume @Green Hoodie Mistborn also was working off of. The world-hopper tech is way too advanced, Ulaam exists and is on Lumar, and Sazed was around to release the Kandra. I'll try to give a few timeline markers. Quote Questioner How do the timelines line up? So they're all in the same universe. But how does Stormlight and-- Brandon Sanderson They are mostly been chronological, yet Alloy-era is after Stormlight book 5. Questioner Okay. Brandon Sanderson Otherwise, mostly chronological. White Sand is before most of this happens. So if you ever read that one, it’s a pretty early book. Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015) The fact that Sazed even exists and has any authority over Kandra at all puts this post-Catacendre. Alloy Era comes after SA 5. That puts it at most 300-ish years before the WoK assuming Sazed immediately released the Kandra on Ascension which we know he didn't. For kicks, let's assume that Hoid's comment about Saze was incidental and not relevant to Ulaams presence. The fact that Ulaam exists puts another upper limit of an additional 1000 years as Kandra didn't even exist before TLR invented them at his Ascension and assuming TLR yeeted super eccentric Ulaam out to wander the Cosmere to become an expert on Investiture with enough autonomy to go answer letters from Hoid. 1300 years tops with a lot of huge caveats. Quote Peter Ahlstrom (paraphrased) *offhandedly* The Sunmaker was about 500 years ago, pretty much right after the Hierocracy. The Recreance was about 2,000 years ago. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) Dalinar's vision of Midnight Essence also had Radiants, so that puts it before the Recreance, more than 2000 years previously. Rosharan years are 1.10 times the Cosmere norm, so that estimate gets even longer. Add in that I assume Odium had to be on Roshar to make an Unmade on Roshar which puts the Rosharan marker at 4500 years in the past when Taln was abandoned in Braise to restrain Odium and the Fused alone. Kandra didn't even exist at the time of the Recreance let alone Dalinar's vision of Midnight Essence or the end of the Last Desolation, so there's no way that Ulaam rode the ship that freed the Midnight Essence that later got moved to Roshar and turned Unmade by Odium. Most clues point toward TotES happening after Mistborn Era 2, not thousands of years before it. 3
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted January 11, 2024 Posted January 11, 2024 11 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Not sure about the timeline theory thing, I'll look into it. Either way, Re-Shepir and Midnight Mother from Dalinar's Vision might not even be the same entity. As TOTES shows Midnight Essenses can be autonomous and afaik the Unmade were 'ummade' at a later stage. No, I meant what we saw in TotES was the actual capturing Re-Shephir remembers. Then 'freed' at the ending of the book, it somehow travels to Roshar and gets invested by Odium to become the Unmade. I think the point is that the Midnight Essences from Dalinar's visions and those from TotES are different completely. At least that is the implication that I read in the WoB I quoted. One are spawned from an Unmade (intelligent splinter of some shard probably honor "unmade" by Odium, at least my interpretation of them) vs a type of Aether which predate the shattering like Yolish Lightweaving does Personally, I don't think we'll ever know the name of the previous lightweaver as they're not critical to the story. They were able to trap the Unmade in the same way Dalinar did and Re-shepir feared Shallan would/could do, through Empathy for the Unmade. Riina doesn't scream "empathetic" in her appearances so far, so I struggle to believe that she'd have been capable of it enough to connect with and trap an Unmade 1
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