killersquirrel59 he/him Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 In a world where cadmium was a thing, people making bombs would probably adapt and just put a simple backup deadman's switch in almost every bomb, or some other delicate thing that would unbalance when manipulated temporally, that would simply set the bomb off as soon as it was out of phase with the rest of the world. Since an object is always entirely in or out of a speed bubble there would be no temporary disruption to sense since, from the bomb's perspective, nothing is changing.
Moogle Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 Since an object is always entirely in or out of a speed bubble there would be no temporary disruption to sense since, from the bomb's perspective, nothing is changing. It could monitor the sun's progress across a sky and know it was in a cadmium bubble if nothing else. Other possibilities: a constant heartbeat signal via radio (encrypted), some sort of Allomantic bronze fabrial, shooting a constant stream of water.
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 I guess if you could set it up to perceive relative time based on a received signal from outside it could work. Basically a repeating signal at a steady interval with a code to detonate if the interval significantly speeds up or slows down.
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 Of course then we run into very awkward realmatic questions asking if whether or not, cognitively speaking, such a signal device would be considered part of the bomb.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 ...Or just a remote deadman's switch, as I said. If you don't get one signal a second, blow up.
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Author Posted October 1, 2014 ...Or just a remote deadman's switch, as I said. If you don't get one signal a second, blow up. Right. I'm wondering whether cognitively such a device would be considered part of the bomb since it is viewed as intrinsic to the bomb's nature in the world as you describe. If it would be considered part of the bomb then that opens up a giant pandora's box of items not physically connected suddenly being affected by speed bubbles that their other part is put into.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 I'm gonna go with "physics trumps this one". However much they might think of themselves, or others might think of them, as one object, they are non-contiguous. I realize there's a lot of people who think that "realmatics" means that if you believe something strong enough it'll happen, but no Lurcher is ever gonna be able to burn Tin just because he goes insane and believes he's able to. Realmatics is important, cognitive aspects are important, and they affect certain things greatly, but there are a few fundamental and immutable laws of the universe that will remain what they are regardless of what anyone believes.
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Author Posted October 1, 2014 Except that in this case it is how the object sees itself. Does the bomb consider the thing sending that signal as part of itself or as an outside force? It isn't belief shapes reality, it is a specific feature of speed bubbles to account for an object always being entirely in or out of the bubble. We have a WoB stating clearly that an object cannot ever be partially in or out of a speed bubble and the way of determining that is based on the object's presence in the Cognitive realm. If the signal device were connected by a wire to the bomb there would be no question that it is part of the bomb and thus would be counted inside the speed bubble.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Okay, well, you seem to be in the "realmatics trumps everything" camp. I'm personally not. Show me a WoB saying that literally nothing but how an object thinks of itself ever matters, and I will believe you. Then you can go ahead and explain why insane people cannot actually fly, and why I can't be an Allomancer just because I really feel like one. Until such time, I'm just gonna be here with my own opinions. What drives me sorta insane is the way that people who believe that cognitive aspect is the pure and simple trump card and that literally nothing else in the physical or spiritual realms matter can't seem to get their minds around the idea that others don't agree with them. My post was, "Cognitive aspect isn't everything." Your reply begins, "Well, since we both agree that cognitive aspect is everything..."
Pathfinder Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Going on conjecture, couldn't the bomb maker set up a similar situation as in sixth of dusk? Include a hemalurgic "tuning fork" of sorts that if any investiture is acted upon the bomb, it blows? Then it doesn't matter if the left foot is in, or the left foot is out, or even if you shake it all about, it goes kabloey. edit: to clarify my sixth of dusk reference, i mean sak's response to the investiture released Edited October 1, 2014 by Pathfinder
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted October 2, 2014 Author Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Okay, well, you seem to be in the "realmatics trumps everything" camp. I'm personally not. Show me a WoB saying that literally nothing but how an object thinks of itself ever matters, and I will believe you. Then you can go ahead and explain why insane people cannot actually fly, and why I can't be an Allomancer just because I really feel like one. Until such time, I'm just gonna be here with my own opinions. What drives me sorta insane is the way that people who believe that cognitive aspect is the pure and simple trump card and that literally nothing else in the physical or spiritual realms matter can't seem to get their minds around the idea that others don't agree with them. My post was, "Cognitive aspect isn't everything." Your reply begins, "Well, since we both agree that cognitive aspect is everything..." There is a big difference between the assertion that "cognitive trumps everything" and "the cognitive realm exists and does what it is supposed to". I fall in the second category whereas you seem to fall into the category of plug your ears, shut your eyes, hum loudly and ignore Realmatics because it's too strange and weird. Well, you're going to have a difficult time here without accepting that the Cognitive indeed does have an influence on how things interact in the various worlds. And here is the WoB you requested noting that how an object views itself is what determines bubble occupancy. Brandon: In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both. Edited October 2, 2014 by killersquirrel59
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 Right. I'm wondering whether cognitively such a device would be considered part of the bomb since it is viewed as intrinsic to the bomb's nature in the world as you describe. If it would be considered part of the bomb then that opens up a giant pandora's box of items not physically connected suddenly being affected by speed bubbles that their other part is put into. I don't think so. All the remote is doing i sending/receiving a signal to/from the bomb. They are two separate objects that are in constant communication. Would the time bubble interrupt the radio wave? Could someone access the internet from inside a time bubble?
Pathfinder Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 I don't think so. All the remote is doing i sending/receiving a signal to/from the bomb. They are two separate objects that are in constant communication. Would the time bubble interrupt the radio wave? Could someone access the internet from inside a time bubble? Theoretically your arm is just sending/receiving a signal to/from your brain. I understand an arm is quite a bit more apart of a person than a remote to a bomb, but there is a connection that I think warrants consideration. What truly constitutes an identity? Especially when discussing objects. Stones are stones, till they are a wall enough to be a wall.
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) Theoretically your arm is just sending/receiving a signal to/from your brain. I understand an arm is quite a bit more apart of a person than a remote to a bomb, but there is a connection that I think warrants consideration. What truly constitutes an identity? Especially when discussing objects. Stones are stones, till they are a wall enough to be a wall. But there is no Physical component connecting them which I believe is key. Edited October 3, 2014 by SmurfAquamarineBodies
Oudeis he/him Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Also, the signal device could be used for many different bombs. A television receives a signal from a source; that source sends signals to thousands of TVs. Are we suggesting that if I put up a cadmium bubble around my television, every television hooked up to the same provider would suddenly be in slo-mo?
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted October 3, 2014 Author Posted October 3, 2014 Well we know that a large portion of it is simple percentage of the object inside. If the signal device is part of a massive network and not solely attached to this bomb, I'd say no it is not. However, if it's sole purpose was to be part of this bomb things get a little less clear. Let's start with the basic premise. If the device is attached by wire rather than remote, is it part of the bomb?
Pathfinder Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) But there is no Physical component connecting them which I believe is key. Well theoretically neither is your arm. You are made up of atoms vibrating. That is why I said what truly constitutes identity. What we THINK is physically connected? What is ACTUALLY physically connected? The CONCEPT of connection? Why are radio waves not considered "physical"? Just because to us it is not tangible even though it can be measured? Wind isn't tangible but it is a physical force that can be measured. Neon Genesis Evangelion posited we all had a personal "shield" that kept us separate, and once that was brought down we became one giant unified sea of sludge lol. I guess I am not so much arguing a point, as asking questions or challenging your hypothesis-es in order to fully flesh them out. If that makes any sense? edit: would it help that since I am going to the NYCC next weekend and Brandon is attending, to try and ask him this question and hope I do not get RAFOed? Edited October 3, 2014 by Pathfinder
Dahak he/him Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 ...Or just a remote deadman's switch, as I said. If you don't get one signal a second, blow up. Doesn't work. Light isn't red or blue shifted across the boundary of a cadmium or bendalloy bubble, so you can't assume a frequency shift.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Doesn't work. Light isn't red or blue shifted across the boundary of a cadmium or bendalloy bubble, so you can't assume a frequency shift. It's not a matter of frequency shift. The unit sends out a ping every second. The bomb is told, if you don't get a ping at least every other second, blow up. Even if there's absolutely no problem with the signal crossing the barrier, with cadmium the bomb will think many seconds have passed between pings.
Pathfinder Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 It's not a matter of frequency shift. The unit sends out a ping every second. The bomb is told, if you don't get a ping at least every other second, blow up. Even if there's absolutely no problem with the signal crossing the barrier, with cadmium the bomb will think many seconds have passed between pings. that would only work in a bendalloy. If you are faster relative to outside the bubbles, then theoretically the signal would reach the limits of the bubble slower, and then speed up once it hit the barrier so there would be a delay. The other way around would be the pulses would reach the limits of the bubble faster, and then slow down. Basically there would be an overflow at the barrier. So if it was indeed effected in that way, then the bomb that is supposed to (lets say for illustrative purposes) be receiving a pulse every second, would be receiving multiple pulses per second, rather than every OTHER second. Again assuming that line of reasoning.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Not letting me quote, but this references the post above me. ...Yes, sorry, I was tired when I wrote that, and got it backwards. Then the receiver works both ways. The deadman's switch sends out a ping every second, and the bomb is programmed to respond. If the switch doesn't get a response for two seconds, it sends the kill command. My point is, it's not difficult to program a bomb with a way to tell when it is faster or slower than normal time, and then tell it to blow up if that circumstance happens.
Moogle Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Not letting me quote, but this references the post above me. ...Yes, sorry, I was tired when I wrote that, and got it backwards. Then the receiver works both ways. The deadman's switch sends out a ping every second, and the bomb is programmed to respond. If the switch doesn't get a response for two seconds, it sends the kill command. My point is, it's not difficult to program a bomb with a way to tell when it is faster or slower than normal time, and then tell it to blow up if that circumstance happens. The issue is that we don't know whether or not radio signals are delayed. The fact that light doesn't darken/brighten/redshift/blueshift in a timebubble suggests there's major changes in the laws of physics in a timebubble relating to electromagnetic waves. If you speed up time 2x, then your brain should register half the photons hitting your eyes, darkening everything. This doesn't happen. This suggests a few possibilities: Light is not affected by a speed bubble, so a 'ping pong' signal scheme would not work, as the bomb would receive a ping every second no matter how sped up/slowed down time is. This leads to a paradox: set up a TV, and use light to transmit a video camera's data to it from outside the bubble. Inside the bubble, you'll see the outside at realtime on the TV, but if you look out the bubble, things will be progressing at 2x speed... which means your TV will be out of sync and this is a contradiction. I'd rule this one out, except time bubbles use handwavium so they can just handwave this paradox out too. Light is affected by a speed bubble, except it's actually not because there's no frequency change like we'd expect. Instead, the speed bubble duplicates photons. If you speed up time 2x, then if the world looks the same outside, the speed bubble must be making sure 2 photons are sent from the edge of the bubble for every 1 photon that goes in. This violates conservation of energy/mass, but this is not a problem because Feruchemical iron does it too.However, what it does provide is a way to get more amounts of energy at a constantly accelerating rate. Set up a gear system such that you have a laser beam on the outside sending photons into a speed bubble, (or the opposite for cadmium). Then, have a solar panel receiving the laser beam, turning it into electricity, which turns a system of gears (one gear inside the speed bubble, one gear outside the speed bubble) which in turn provides the energy for the laser apparatus. Assuming your solar panel efficiency is high enough (over 1/n where n is the speed factor of your bendalloy or cadmium bubble), the increased number of photons basically gives you n times more energy into the bubble and will turn your gear system faster and faster and faster, providing infinite energy to the point where your gear system is rotating so fast it falls apart, or your laser overheats. (The gear system issue can be fixed via magnetic bearings in a vacuum, and the laser issue I'm not sure as it's not my area of expertise. I'm sure there's ways to cool down a superhot laser, though.) This, however, ignores quantum mechanics. I'm not knowledge enough to know what this would be doing on that level, or if it would change my invention above. Because of the obvious abuse, I'm reasonably sure the second won't work, which leaves us with the first explanation. Only, that generates paradoxes so ???. There's also the question of what happens if you send a sine wave frequency radio wave into a time bubble. If the second explanation is true, then it will basically create a 'floor' of the wave, such that it steps up every 0.01 seconds or whatever, turning into a stretched out sine wave. This has interesting applications for electromagnetics that I am too tired to figure out. 1
Pathfinder Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 So would then a laser shot from within outwards, or from without inwards not have a deflection like bullets do when transversing the boundary?
Moogle Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Normal light isn't deflected, or else everything would be wavy from inside the speed bubble. (Or is it actually wavy? I recall there being a slight distortion?) Just make a giant solar panel if it's an issue. Even if the deflection causes you to lose 50% of the power overall, the typical speed factor of a bendalloy bubble is way over 2x, given how Wayne can change inside of one in the blink of an eye.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Moogle: None of what you said matters to what I'm talking about, if you'll read what i'm actually saying. Even assuming that the radio signal transfers perfectly from inside the bubble to outside, the point is that the device will only send out a signal once per second. This means many, many seconds will go by outside without the transceiver getting a signal, because time is compressed for the bomb, and so it will send the kill command. Or, at least, stop sending the "don't blow up yet" command. For the person inside the cadmium bubble, it will still be as long as you can stretch three seconds of time, but even assuming that Wax's suggestion of 8x is on the low end, and let's go ahead and give them 30x, that's now a minute and a half until the bomb goes off. So yes, if the bomb will go off in the next 90 seconds anyway, you might be protecting those outside the bubble for that span of time. It still only gives you, inside the bubble, three seconds to disarm the bomb or die.
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