Ars Arcanum 2.0

[Aeshdan he/him]

Well, I base the theory that symbolheads are Shallan-only on the following statements by Jasnah:

(emphasis mine)

and:

So, in the first statement Jasnah says that they share an ability (soulcasting). In the second, however, she says "you", not "we", implying that only Shallan uses these particular spren.

Besides, only two KR orders could soulcast, not just anybody who sees/ talks to them.

Also, going on the wild tangent [warning : stupid joke-like sentences ahead] : as the relationship between Shallan and spren progresses, and spren no longer has to ask her explicitly:

[shallan] (after a hard day's work) (to herself) Boy, I am hungry.

[spen] This is true (sucks Shallan into Shadesmar)

[shallan] Oops. Note to self - always carry infused spheres. *Glurgh* (drowning in the Bead Sea)

+1 for silliness

[Telcontar]

“These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.”

“Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

One could also interpret that statement as a way of instruction. You do Soulcastings. Symbolheads are related with that.

Like in "They are related to what you just did for the first time."

Anyway, love your stupid joke-like sentences.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Thanks! Want more?

And yes, it can be interpreted that way, too. The diversity of opinions increases the probability that one of the is right, so

[Telcontar]

yep. go ahead

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, actually, the "jokes" are a byproduct of theory making, so only one other:

[shallan] (barely getting out of Shadesmar alive) (to Spren): I hate you!

[spren] This is true.

[shallan] NoOoO (faints)

[spren] Humans. No sense of humor whatsoever.

As an aside, you know, I don't think I have seen many in-cosmere jokes around, although they seem to crop out from time to time. Maybe there should be a separate thread.

[Telcontar]

yeah, being bound to a symbolhead really sucks. you'll have to lie all the time while spending all your sparetime (being the time you won't spend swimming in an ocean of beads) searching for infused spheres...

you're probably right about a special thread.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, if you make one, let me know. I am not very good at starting threads.

[Odium's_Shard]

To Telcontar: about who I was arguing to... who knows? Maybe you (even though we were in agreement?), maybe myself, maybe the Cosmere... I just wanted to get that straight.

But those jokes really are cracking. Maybe I could assist in these spren-related ones.

[Jasnah] Shallan, how do you feel?

[shallan] I understand symbolspren now. (takes emerald sphere out of pocket in anticipation)

(nothing happens)

[shallan] That spren is an idiot!

(still nothing)

[Jasnah] Don't worry, Shallan, all of us experience trouble telling the truth sometimes.

[shallan] Me too. By the way, I stole your Soulcaster before you told me all this about spren.

[spren] This is true.

(Shallan smiles, Jasnah lunges at her but Shallan dissapears).

End almost uncomically long sketch.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Satsuoni he/him]

[shallan] That joke wasn't very funny.

[spren] This is true. *poof*

Urgh. We need that other thread.

[Odium's_Shard]

And I need a new sense of humour... Ah well, maybe I'll think up some more just to force you to find another thread that I can't find

[Satsuoni he/him]

Not sure what you mean by the last statement...

Also, now I can't get this phrase ("This is true") out of my head. Help.

I mean the we need a thread specifically for humor, since this one should be devoted to Spren theories. Derailing is not a very good thing.

[Odium's_Shard]

I meant that perhaps the only way to stop my poor humour invading your entire being may just be to start the new thread yourself, somewhere that I won't care to look, in order to escape my crude jokes...

But let me try and find and existing one, perhaps in the off-topic section..

Also, on the odd chance, can you remember what we were arguing about before the jokes, or had we come to an agreement on something and descended into tomfoolery?

[Satsuoni he/him]

We were arguing about whether Symboleads are Shallans Nahel-bond spren or generic guardians of the Shadesmar, also about the importance of the attributes, primary and secondary, etc. I guess.

[Odium's_Shard]

Meh. I am out of theories for today. Need an argument that I can revoke and reply to!

[Telcontar]

yeah, that's why derailings are bad

you got it right however, this thread was first about the importance of secondary attributes. This then discussed over the example of symbolheads, leading to a more general discussion about the nature of symbolheads.

The thesis is the following:

Secondary attributes don't have an impact on why anyone gets magical abilities. The Investiture happens because someone acts according to a primary attribute which are probably the same as the Herald's Ideals.

What to make of the symbolheads then:

Possibility nr.1: thesis is wrong, symbolheads are Shallan's primary spren. (Just made that term up: spren who are responsible for one's magical abilities)

Argument: only the truth/honest-relation

Possibility nr.2: symbolheads are indeed primary spren. But is her creativity that attracted them.

Argument: they appear in her drawings

Possibility nr.3: symbolheads are not primary spren but secondary spren, responsible for the development of a KR, making the bond more powerful or accessing more power.

Argument: symbolheads demand truths and the secondary attribute of the 6th order: 'honest' would indicate a link

Possibility nr.4: symbolheads are not primary spren. There are no secondary spren. Symbolheads are spren who can give a human access to Shadesmar by bonding with them. Anyone could form that bond. Soulcasters need it.

Arguments: result of the aforementioned thesis that secondary attributes have no impact on gaining magical abilities. They appearently were sentient before bonding with Shallan in opposition to Syl. They seem to be around everywhere. Their unsprenly behaviour and appearance indicates that they are different from honorspren.

Even if you haven't read this thread, you can probably guess that possibility nr.4 is my opinion about how things work, only by counting the arguments.

[Satsuoni he/him]

You know, it has occurred to me -Shallan's drawings are not really creative (at least not the Memory-based ones). They are more like photographs, representing the moment exactly and without any imagination whatsoever (although Shallan can draw normally, as well). SO they may be actually part of the "Truth" ideal

My thesis is - there is little relation between described attributes and the stuff that attracts spren, and the relationship is backwards, that is, KR were before, and the attributes were just derived to describe them, so the order does not matter. So, Syl is Spren of honor, oaths and nobility, but honor is usually expressed in protecting the weak and not abusing ones power, and people are more likely to follow a noble person. In Shallan's case spren crave personal secrets, so one must be honest (to them) and creative in using their secrets, or maybe gets Memory as a side ability, so can create nice drawings, etc... Then, Shallan gets a spren, since she has a very good, strong secret that no one knows, while Tar..nation.. guy have a hospital-full of acolytes that share his secrets, so spren's interest is much weaker.

[Odium's_Shard]

It has been previously theorized that a side-ability may derive from the joining of the two attributes, ie Shallan's Memory ability seems the perfect combination of her attributes, in that is a Truthful representation made with Creativity.

But what you said in the bulk of your post is akin to the fact that in Mistborn, TLR made sure nobody found out about any of the other metals, and so the populace at large then developed the theory of Ten Metals, Base Metals, Upper Metals, etc around an originally false ideal. BS likes to do this in his works, and I find it very intriguing, in that the characters set out on a dual quest of discovery and purpose, in that they set out with an original purpose (kill TLR), discover an unforseen consequence, and then set out to fix it, all along gaining previously unknown information.

So your saying that the people of old saw that certain KR who could perform certain deeds had certain attributes, and so came up with the theory that spren are attracted to these attributes and then give these abilities, it being a false assumption. Perhaps even the KR unknowingly falsely operated under these assumptions, which explains why the attributes are linked to the Orders, as are the abilities, in that the KR felt it was intrinsic that these attributes are present in the individual for these powers to form, even if this wasn't correct. As opposed to the populace developing the attributes to fit KR Orders after the Recreance (which wouldn't make sense under the structure of the Orders already in existence).

[Satsuoni he/him]

I am not sure general population knew that much about spren, actually. Nohadon, sure, knew, scholars did, but the bond itself was rare enough, so maybe they did not know. Also, spren don't seem to like showing themselves (Syl certainly does not). I think they saw KR of a certain order show certain attributes, and formed the connection.

Also, another idea - what if attributes were partially written by Nohadon, when he formed KR, so they form what, in his opinion, these attributes should be, rather than what they are. Since he also apparently wrote the oaths, it would make sense that the oaths express attributes, then.

[farmboy777]

Just a few things I though I would chip into this discussion.

1) Syl say she had been following Kaladin around since the war, and Kaladin was surprised, implying he hadn't noticed.

EDIT QUOTE: Chapter 11 Droplets: "I watched you, you know. Back in that army."

2) Innate Soulcasting is just the Surge of Transformation, implying that Shallon has already formed a Nahel bond, In order to perform said Surge.

Taking those things into account I see two possibilities. Either the symbolhead-spren is Shallans Nahel-Spren, (Tarvagians(sp?) may be related to Void-binding, a dark match for Shallan like Szeth is for Kaladin), and the bond was formed earlier, and the Spren developed a sense of cognitive ability during that time before Shallan noticed (quite basic in my opinion all it wants is a truth, which due to its nature could be seen as natural instinct, earlier in its development than Syl who has a personality etc). This can be compared to Syl's development, gaining cognitive ability from Kaladin while Kaladin believes her to be a simple wind-spren, although he has the advantage of actually being able to see Syl.

OR the symbol head is not her Nahel-Spren and she has been bonded by her Nahel-Spren but simply hasn't noticed (unlikely).

Since Jasnah also has the Surge of Transformation, but does not recognize the Spren, it would imply and pretty much confirm that she is in a different order, with a Nahel-bond to a different type of Spren, again adding to the agprgument of the symbol-Spren being Shallan's Order's Nahel-Spren.

Anyway that was longer than I intended it to be, and a little confusing so sorry, added bits in back and forth as I went.

EDIT 2: just found another quote so going to make this even longer

Chapter72 Veristitalian : "These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe.I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

“What?”

“I will explain as I train you,”"

I believe the bolded sentence, is where Jasnah realizes Shallan is of the other order, as she says it directly after mentioning two orders per Surge. Her only evidence as far as I can tell, is the type of spren that Shallan sees, which is also directly addressed just before she says it: "They are related to what you do"? This again implies Jasnah sees other spren than the symbol-heads.

Anyway, I'll let someone else have a go now.

Edited March 16, 2012 by farmboy777

[Telcontar]

You know, it has occurred to me -Shallan's drawings are not really creative (at least not the Memory-based ones). They are more like photographs, representing the moment exactly and without any imagination whatsoever (although Shallan can draw normally, as well). SO they may be actually part of the "Truth" ideal

This would not be the first time we argue about the meaning of terms . It's about your definition of creativity. Of course her drawings are very accurate. But the process of drawing itself is creative. You create something, even if it's an exact representation of the reality. Also she draws a sort of spren that are reffered to as Creative-spren. That doesn't prove anything of course, but I assume that creative-spren are also attracted by other women and those wouldn't be as good in drawing/painting/sculpturing as Shallan.

I am not sure general population knew that much about spren, actually. Nohadon, sure, knew, scholars did, but the bond itself was rare enough, so maybe they did not know. Also, spren don't seem to like showing themselves (Syl certainly does not). I think they saw KR of a certain order show certain attributes, and formed the connection.

Also, another idea - what if attributes were partially written by Nohadon, when he formed KR, so they form what, in his opinion, these attributes should be, rather than what they are. Since he also apparently wrote the oaths, it would make sense that the oaths express attributes, then.

Syl says herself that she was drawn to Kaladin because he protected the young recruits in Amaram's army. Also, we assume that Surgebinding existed before the KR came to life.

I believe, that Nohadon only figured out a way of making the bond stronger. And he figured out how to restrict access to this stronger bond to those who followed his ideals.

There is that quote from Brandon, I always use

From Brandonthology:

He [bS] talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

That's why primary-spren (like Syl) are those giving abilities in the first place. Syl being drawn to Kaladin when he protected, protecting being the primary attribute of the first order, orders being shaped after the Heralds ideals.

What Nohadon did is still very mysterious. But I believe that secondary attributes will play a role in what he did.

Just a few things I though I would chip into this discussion.

1) Syl say she had been following Kaladin around since the war, and Kaladin was surprised, implying he hadn't noticed.

EDIT QUOTE: Chapter 11 Droplets: "I watched you, you know. Back in that army."

2) Innate Soulcasting is just the Surge of Transformation, implying that Shallon has already formed a Nahel bond, In order to perform said Surge.

Taking those things into account I see two possibilities. Either the symbolhead-spren is Shallans Nahel-Spren, (Tarvagians(sp?) may be related to Void-binding, a dark match for Shallan like Szeth is for Kaladin), and the bond was formed earlier, and the Spren developed a sense of cognitive ability during that time before Shallan noticed (quite basic in my opinion all it wants is a truth, which due to its nature could be seen as natural instinct, earlier in its development than Syl who has a personality etc). This can be compared to Syl's development, gaining cognitive ability from Kaladin while Kaladin believes her to be a simple wind-spren, although he has the advantage of actually being able to see Syl.

OR the symbol head is not her Nahel-Spren and she has been bonded by her Nahel-Spren but simply hasn't noticed (unlikely).

Absence of spren does not indicate the lack of a bond, if you take Szeth in account. I'd think it very very strange if we have seen Szeth in 5 or more POV, always Lashing stuff to the moon, and Brandon wouldn't give us a single mention of a spren.

Szeth is Surgebinding, Brandon has only said that Szeth is not going to be a KR. Like the Surgebinders from before-Nohadon.

Also Kaladin probably used Stormlight already when he was a squadleader (he was described as almost glowing) without having noticed Syl.

I don't think it unlikely that a spren wouldn't show itself. Syl had appearently gained sentience from before her first talk to Kaladin. She then showed herself because he had stopped doing what attracted Syl to him. She tried to make him protect people again. If she wouldn't have had success in doing so, she probably would have broken the bond in the end.

Since Jasnah also has the Surge of Transformation, but does not recognize the Spren, it would imply and pretty much confirm that she is in a different order, with a Nahel-bond to a different type of Spren, again adding to the agprgument of the symbol-Spren being Shallan's Order's Nahel-Spren.

My interpretation of that was that Jasnah did not recognize the symbolheads because she herself had never SEEN them. She obviously knows what symbolheads do however. As you point out, she tells Shallan, that symbolheads are related to what Shallan does. That does not exclude (as I have mentioned earlier) that Jasnah does not use them herself.

I say, Jasnah does interact with her own symbolhead (because she would have needed to bond one too) only by speech.

Anyway that was longer than I intended it to be, and a little confusing so sorry, added bits in back and forth as I went.

No problem, that happens to me all the time.

[Odium's_Shard]

Chapter72 Veristitalian : "These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe.I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

“What?”

“I will explain as I train you,”"

This excites me. Not as a theorizer, but as a reader. Clearly Shallan will be trained, and clearly, through her confirmedly larger POV in SA Book 2, that means we will be trained in the art of Soulcasting. This then sates the logical side of me, because it means I'll have better reasons to argue with people I don't know through a fanatical internet forum about points, facts and theories that may not ever come to fruition in any of Brandon Sanderson's future works.

The anticipation of SA Book 2 is almost deadly.

[Telcontar]

Isn't the whole point of this forum to argue about strange ideas without foundation?

[Odium's_Shard]

And I'm glad of it.

I just finished reading Warbreaker (like just now, don't know why I haven't started it before, but if you haven't, seriously read it, amazing book [as are all of BS']) so now I am, unfortunately for all of you, armed with an array of new examples (focused on the art of Awakening) to use on General Theories, access to the Warbreaker thread to argue with some more people, and a pinch of Lightsong's humour residing within the deep recesses of my mind.

Good luck to you all!

[kari-no-sugata]

Some quick thoughts and observations before I go to bed... not checking book for reference.

Early in the book Shallan says/thinks something like how spren dont really have a physical form - if you move your hand through one, you dont feel anything, though they kind of dissipate. However, Shallan was able to touch the "truthspren" it seems, when in her room, just before she soulcast.

Seems to me most spren appear when things "change" - we dont have static "water" spren we have dynamic "rain" spren, dynamic wind spren rather than static air spren. etc. Now, "The Almighty" is also known as "He Who Transforms". Maybe when things change (naturally) in the presence of Stormlight, spren appear (or are strengthened enough so that they can become visible). Then maybe Soulcasting would be a sort-of reverse transformation : taking Stormlight + spren to change things (artificially). Note, not all spren may be named properly though, so shouldn't base too much off names, but they dont seem to "just appear" - they seem to only appear when things are happening.

Maybe some or all spren can feed off changing human emotions or human actions and become progressively intelligent if particular emotions or actions continue. Maybe some kind of positive feedback loop can develop between a spren and a particular human, resulting eventually particularly strong and powerful bonds.

Regarding Shallan and creative/honest. There's more to honesty than "not lying". For example, being "honest to your feelings" - Shallan tends to show her feelings quite strongly and freely, which is perhaps why she gets teased a fair bit ^-^ Ditto "honest representation" (ie an accurate drawing rather than a flattering one). Also, almost all her chapters have her considering truth in general, have her worrying about lies etc. Very early one she says she hates being duplicitous, or something like that. Yet, she's doing it to save her family, though this isn't pushed strong or hard early on - maybe Brandon didn't want readers to sympathise too much with her initial plans. Shallan also reacts quite negatively to the "assurance movement" (or whatever it was called) and so on. She certainly seems to care about "the truth".

The first time she goes to Shadesmar is for a very simple "truth" - I'm terrified. I don't think it's as much as offering a "statement of fact" as being a requirement but rather (the act of) bringing yourself to admit something is true (being honest with yourself).

The second time she Soulcasts, Jasnah berates Shallan for using "only a single dun sphere" or something - maybe that's why she needed to offer something deeper that time?

[Telcontar]

About your first thougts: I invite you to read my spren-theory which I posted on General Theories: "Theory: the nature of spren". I have come to very similar conclusions to yours.

About Shallan and truth. Shallan my very well care aout being honest and truthful. If you support the idea that her Primary Investiture (the process by which a human gains magical abilities) may be caused by acting according to a secondary attribute, then, yeah, could be.

About the only one sphere-thing. I believe the bigger truth had to be told to get the bond between Shallan and her symbolhead in place. The problem with only having one sphere in Shadesmar is that your power in Shadesmar is related to how much Stormlight you bring. If you have but one sphere, you'll probably get yourself killed.