Sharing a few frustrations in WoR

[Marmota he/him]

Hey Guys! It was only a couple days ago that i finished WoR, and although I pretty much liked the book, there was some points that are bugging me.

 

Maybe i am missing something here, or just seeing with the wrong eyes. So i would like to share these points with you, maybe you could explain it further and change my opinion....Here we go

 

1 - In the bridge sabotage part, Kaladin hear the sounds of horns announcing Parshendi an attack before he falls. Later, Dalinar returns to the warcamp and no one ever talks about an attack. Even if its not important, i just feel wrong that no one talked about it. So what happened? 

 

2 - I really thought that it was not well explained when Shallan discovers that Pattern was her shardblade. How come she dint realize it earlier? BS pushed that one IMO....

 

3 - Szeth ressurection. Ok we all knew that hes was not really gona die, obviously. But then BS shouldnt make Kaladin cut Szeth's neck with a sharblade! Nale's explanation of how he saved Szeth was really lame (Nale: Your soul was ripped out, but your brain wasnt dead yet....really??). I perceive that Kaladin and the others believing that Szeth is dead will be important in the future, but still i think BS pushed too hard again in that part.

 

4 - Right in the end, when Shallan remembers what really happened with her mother. BS put this scene after all resolutions in the book, so after all thisrevelation didnt matter for the plot. Wouldnt it be MUCH better if to activate the Oathgate a KR has too pronounce one of his order's Ideal? As truths = Ideal for Lightweavers, she could remember in that time in the revelation would be much more meaninful. 

 

So, do you agree ith me? Once again i say that i reaaally liked the book, so these are some minor point, but are some details that are annoying me. Maybe i didnt get it right and someone could explain to me! 

 

edit: grammar error

Edited August 17, 2014 by Marmota

[hoser he/him]

Welcome! Introductory upvote!

Hey Guys! It was only a couple days ago that i finished WoR, and although I pretty much liked the book, there was some points that are bugging me.

 

Maybe i am missing something here, or just seeing with the wrong eyes. So i would like to share these points with you, maybe you could explain it further and change my opinion....Here we go

 

1 - In the bridge sabotage part, Kaladin hear the sounds of horns announcing Parshendi an attack before he falls. Later, Dalinar returns to the warcamp and no one ever talks about an attack. Even if its not important, i just feel wrong that no one talked about it. So what happened? 

 

2 - I really thought that it was not well explained when Shallan discovers that Pattern was her shardblade. How come she dint realize it earlier? BS pushed that one IMO....

 

3 - Szeth ressurection. Ok we all knew that hes was not really gona die, obviously. But then BS shouldnt make Kaladin cut Szeth's neck with a sharblade! Nale's explanation of how he saved Szeth was really lame (Nale: Your soul was ripped out, but your brain wasnt dead yet....This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules??). I perceive that Kaladin and the others believing that Szeth is dead will be important in the future, but still i think BS pushed too hard again in that part.

 

4 - Right in the end, when Shallan remembers what really happened with her mother. BS put this scene after all resolutions in the book, so after all thisrevelation didnt matter for the plot. Wouldnt it be MUCH better if to activate the Oathgate a KR has too pronounce one of his order's Ideal? As truths = Ideal for Lightweavers, she could remember in that time in the revelation would be much more meaninful. 

 

So, do you agree ith me? Once again i say that i reaaally liked the book, so these are some minor point, but are some details that are annoying me. Maybe i didnt get it right and someone could explain to me! 

1. The Parshendi attack at a time when the Parshendi are no longer contesting gemhearts and there is not one at stake seems like bad plotting.  That it exactly coincides with an assassination attempt seems ridiculous to me.  Given that it is a particularly large scouting expedition being attacked rather than an emergency response to a gemheart sighting makes even less sense.  I guess it's to explain the lack of body recovery effort.  Since there are a relatively small number of Alethi bodies below, it could not have been a very significant engagement.  I don't think we get any POV other than Shallan and Kaladin for days, so I don't see an inconsequential engagement as a significant loose end that needed tying up, but your mileage varies, obviously. 

2. She avoids thinkong about the Shardblade while really knowing about it.  The way the Shardblade nature is not revealed does seem a bit contrived, but I really liked it. 

4. To say an ideal every time you had to use an Oathgate would limit you to 5 Oathgate uses.  The way it is done, you just have to be of high enough level to have a livespren Shardblade and you can use Oathgates many times.  The Oathgate seems to me to have a spren.  It would be weird to have to reveal a deeper truth or further oath to a spren you don't even know. 

[Marmota he/him]

Welcome! Introductory upvote!

1. The Parshendi attack at a time when the Parshendi are no longer contesting gemhearts and there is not one at stake seems like bad plotting.  That it exactly coincides with an assassination attempt seems ridiculous to me.  Given that it is a particularly large scouting expedition being attacked rather than an emergency response to a gemheart sighting makes even less sense.  I guess it's to explain the lack of body recovery effort.  Since there are a relatively small number of Alethi bodies below, it could not have been a very significant engagement.  I don't think we get any POV other than Shallan and Kaladin for days, so I don't see an inconsequential engagement as a significant loose end that needed tying up, but your mileage varies, obviously. 

2. She avoids thinkong about the Shardblade while really knowing about it.  The way the Shardblade nature is not revealed does seem a bit contrived, but I really liked it. 

4. To say an ideal every time you had to use an Oathgate would limit you to 5 Oathgate uses.  The way it is done, you just have to be of high enough level to have a livespren Shardblade and you can use Oathgates many times.  The Oathgate seems to me to have a spren.  It would be weird to have to reveal a deeper truth or further oath to a spren you don't even know. 

 Thanks for the welcoming hehe =)

 

1 - Ok, agreed. Its bugging me less now

2 - Understood but still didnt like it much

4 - I was thinking that just mentioning an Ideal could open the Oathgate, didnt have to be a new Ideal each time....but it was only an idea to demonstrate that he could have inserted this part in a better position. I mean,  still think that after thousand pages of mistery regarding shallan past, the revelation ended up being kind useless....

[Chrono she/her]

Hey Guys! It was only a couple days ago that i finished WoR, and although I pretty much liked the book, there was some points that are bugging me.

 

Maybe i am missing something here, or just seeing with the wrong eyes. So i would like to share these points with you, maybe you could explain it further and change my opinion....Here we go

 

1 - In the bridge sabotage part, Kaladin hear the sounds of horns announcing Parshendi an attack before he falls. Later, Dalinar returns to the warcamp and no one ever talks about an attack. Even if its not important, i just feel wrong that no one talked about it. So what happened? 

 

2 - I really thought that it was not well explained when Shallan discovers that Pattern was her shardblade. How come she dint realize it earlier? BS pushed that one IMO....

 

3 - Szeth ressurection. Ok we all knew that hes was not really gona die, obviously. But then BS shouldnt make Kaladin cut Szeth's neck with a sharblade! Nale's explanation of how he saved Szeth was really lame (Nale: Your soul was ripped out, but your brain wasnt dead yet....really??). I perceive that Kaladin and the others believing that Szeth is dead will be important in the future, but still i think BS pushed too hard again in that part.

 

4 - Right in the end, when Shallan remembers what really happened with her mother. BS put this scene after all resolutions in the book, so after all thisrevelation didnt matter for the plot. Wouldnt it be MUCH better if to activate the Oathgate a KR has too pronounce one of his order's Ideal? As truths = Ideal for Lightweavers, she could remember in that time in the revelation would be much more meaninful. 

 

So, do you agree ith me? Once again i say that i reaaally liked the book, so these are some minor point, but are some details that are annoying me. Maybe i didnt get it right and someone could explain to me! 

 

edit: grammar error

 

Welcome to the forums!

 

1. I honestly have no idea what Brandon was trying to do here, but it was probably just a Parshendi scouting group that they accidentally ran into. Perhaps they were Parshendi that were trying to escape from Narak when Eshonai went nuts and tried to change everyone into stormform? I really don't know, but hoser makes a good point.

 

2. She knows, she's just consciously forgotten it. After Kaladin kills the chasmfiend, she mentions that she couldn't have sent her illusions out on Pattern, because... so she must know about it. Whenever she uses the Shardblade, she also remembers her mother's murder, so there's another hint. Basically, she's trying to detach herself from the memories of her mother's death, so she just refers to it as a Shardblade. Like hoser, I really liked that part of the book. 

 

3. Yeah, I admit, it's a little cheap. But Brandon has actually foreshadowed this sort of thing very well (he usually does). In one of Dalinar's visions (WoK) he sees a Stoneward use a healing fabrial. It's hinted that Nale uses the exact same sort of fabrial to heal Szeth. Also, I've seen so many resurrections in fiction that this last minute healing really doesn't bother me. 

 

4. To stick that memory in there right when Shallan is in the thick of the action slows down the pace, derails the storyline, and makes no sense. I'd be supremely bothered if right when people are dying and the Everstorm is right on top of them, Shallan has a flashback to the time when she killed her mom. It'd be like Metroid: Other M, where Samus gets a guy killed because she's suddenly in shock from seeing Ridley show up, even though she's fought Ridley hundreds of times (really just poor characterization in that game, really). Shallan's so caught up in saving everyone that it'd be really weird to suddenly space out. It's after all the action's died down that she has to confront the truth. Just like how after Kaladin saved the bridgemen, he actually has to face his PTSD, depression, SAD, etc.

[hoser he/him]

 Thanks ...

4 - I was thinking that just mentioning an Ideal could open the Oathgate, didnt have to be a new Ideal each time....but it was only an idea to demonstrate that he could have inserted this part in a better position. I mean,  still think that after thousand pages of mistery regarding shallan past, the revelation ended up being kind useless....

Okay, now I see where you are going.  Kaladin levels up and all of a sudden can and does do amazing things that he couldn't before which affect the outcome of the book.  Shallan levels up and ... then the book ends.  It's sort of like a reverse cliffhanger.  A really good thing has happened, but we don't know the resolution. 

I guess I'm OK with it because she was re-leveling up and making a difference all through the book.  It might also say something about the different ways the Cryptics and Lightweavers operate, as opposed to Windrunners and honorspren. 

[kari-no-sugata]

1) I think the Parshendi patrol itself was entirely normal so there was nothing to comment on (it wasn't unexpected). Was it too much of a co-incidence that the assassin flipped the bridge just as the scouts sounded the warning horn? Maybe, but it could also be intended as a hint that it was partially engineered: we know that there were multiple infiltrations and it could be that one of the scouts was a plant, who then signalled to the assassin when he spots Parshendi, who then calls Dalinar back across the bridge (this we see) and then the plant scout sounds the horn when he sees Dalinar walk back. Would Sadeas/Ialai go that far? Well, it would be a good way to really trash Dalinar's reputation (can't even bring his corpse back for a funeral) and maybe get some more Kholins killed.

 

2) Some things along these lines annoyed me on first read a bit but after some re-reads I was okay with it. Shallan is intentionally written to be more complex to understand - for one thing she's an unreliable narrator, particular with regards to events in her childhood. When we see her in the second flashback ("Safe things" chapter) she's pretty much a zombie - Helaran suggests she forget about the past and also asks her to keep drawing and look after her brothers. This is the only real help she gets with her problem and by the next flashback she is much improved, but still if she even slightly thinks about events around her mother her mind goes blank for an hour or something. It seems clear to me now that over time she learned to avoid thinking about it all (though her mind still does go blank once or twice outside the flashbacks). She still sort-of knows what she did (people were theorising she killed her mother years ago) but also is simply not able to think about it - and is terrified that being forced to will turn her into a zombie again. Pattern pushes her during the book and she is able to acknowledge more and more over time. Even the first time she summons her Shardblade (to kill Tyn) she is aware that it's not a normal Shardblade (doesn't need 10 heartbeats) but forces herself to pretend otherwise, even at risk to herself.

 

3) Actually Brandon has said that he wishes he'd done things differently. The main problem I have with Szeth's resurrection is not so much that he got one but that it makes it hard to trust characters to stay dead in future - I really don't want to have lots of discussions about whether a character is really dead or whether a passing Herald saved them.

 

4) I'm fine with it this way around. I also think it's better if we see different Radiants progress in different ways. I think it's better for the Oathgate to be a pretty straightforward mechanism and forcing Shallan to go up a level to use it would probably feel more contrived (how would she have known?). She's also under such big pressure during that scene that she pretty much ignores a screaming Shardblade (when she touches Adolin's) - not the sort of situation to have a revelatory flashback in. However, it is a bit of a shame that her big success (saving the entire army) is overshadowed by other events. In some ways, this final scene for Shallan is setup for the next book - Pattern basically tells her she needs to be stronger to confront the Ghostbloods and that the people need a proper Radiant.

 

 

Anyway: welcome

 

There's no problem with having frustrations about the book. Everyone is going to have some. One thing that frustrated me for a while was the whole "boots" scene - it felt too telegraphed (that Kaladin would meet Shallan when going for a horse ride) and also unnecessary (their relationship wouldn't have been much different without that). For some time I felt the whole chapter could have been cut. But... after thinking about it I came to realise it was doing several useful things (ignoring the humour aspect): it was useful training for Shallan (to deal when difficult situations when impersonating someone), it (probably) gives her the tip to do something similar to Iyatil later... and also, I think it's there so that Kaladin will dismiss her as just another lighteyes until the chasm scene (ie it's to delay him getting to understand her so that we can see faster and more obvious development during the chasm scene).

[Inkthinker]

I'm pretty sure it's not until this book that the connection between spren and Shardblades is understood. People assume they're unrelated, and I expect Shallan may have done the same, at least until Tyn forced her hand...

[name_here]

1) They're not contesting the Gemhearts anymore, but they might have taken the opportunity to go after Dalinar for a decapitation strike, or they opted to block the scouting expedition. Most likely they skirmished for a while until the expedition withdrew without getting into a stand-up fight. The Parshendi can jump chasms while Dalinar is unwilling to use the faster carried bridges in the face of resistance, and there's no gemheart to make them stand and fight.

 

2) Shallan repressed the memory and refused to think about it.

[sun tzaro]

3 - I think he got stabbed right below the neck - but I agree, that was a little too magick-y. I still appreciated the "Szeth died and was reborn" theme, though. 

 

As a side note, I'm not too pleased with the fact that all of the important characters who died ended up being, well, not-dead. I don't think we need any GoT level butchery, but the lack of permanence when it comes to character deaths has so far been disappointing.

 

4 - I thought the placement was appropriate. As mentioned by the user kari-no-sugata earlier in this thread, it shows that the orders progress differently - Windrunners clearly learn additional oaths in times of need (I imagine we'll see Kaladin powering up a few more times down the road as he learns more oaths), but for Lightweavers, Truths seem to be a far more personal thing.

 

I also enjoyed it because just when I thought Shallan's mostly figured out and WoR was winding down, we get what really is major plot reveal. It didn't really make sense why Shallan was quite so guilt-wracked and why her father never beat her until that moment.