Difference between Shardblades/Honorblades?

[LostRadiant]

So I just wanted to be clear on the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. From my understanding, I know that Shardblades are dead spren which temporarily come alive after the weilder summons it from ten heartbeats.

 

And then, I understand that Kaladin and Shallan's Shardblades are formed from their own spren (being Syl and Pattern) and are very much alive.

 

So those are Shardblades. And then it is discovered that Szeth stole a Honorblade which is the reasoning behind his powers. So what are Honorblades exactly? They surely aren't those weapons that the Knights Radiant discarded in that vision Dalinar had right? Because those are Shardblades which are formed from their dead spren.

 

Whom did the Honorblades belong to? And there are meant to be ten of them, right?

 

Thanks

[Dellexe he/him]

This is just my basic knowledge of the subject, someone more versed in this may correct me later.

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As I understand it, the Honorblades were made by Honor for each of the 10 Heralds. They are older than the spren-blades, and in fact the spren started bonding humans in order to mimic their effects.

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As I said before, they originally belonged to the 10 Heralds. Seven of them are currently held by the Shin, with the exception of Jezrien's Honorblade, which was used by Szeth, and Talenel's blade, which was with him when he returned to Roshar.

[Edgedancer he/him]

This is just my basic knowledge of the subject, someone more versed in this may correct me later.

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As I understand it, the Honorblades were made by Honor for each of the 10 Heralds. They are older than the spren-blades, and in fact the spren started bonding humans in order to mimic their effects.

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As I said before, they originally belonged to the 10 Heralds. Seven of them are currently held by the Shin, with the exception of Jezrien's Honorblade, which was used by Szeth, and Talenel's blade, which was with him when he returned to Roshar.

That is pretty much it. The blades are comparable to Lerasium from Mistborn, with the difference that they can be given to other people. Something to add is that the numbers in the last paragraph don´t add up because one of the Heralds (presumed to be Nalan but not confirmed) reclaimed his blade.

[kadolin]

The blade that Dalinar bonded and eventually released after his oath and hearing the screams was not Taln's honorblade. The screaming was the definitive clue and Brandon hinted as much.

I still suspect Taln and Nale in possession of their own honorblades while the rest are with the shinovar stone shamans. Nale who likely went back to retrieve his honorblade since he is able to surgebind. Taln who did not leave his honorblade like the rest. And we have Kaladin holding on to the Windrunner honorblade.

@LostRadiant
The honorblades are the ones the Heralds discarded when they decided on breaking the Oathpact, in the beginning of WoK. Dalinar had visions of the many KRs discarding their shardblades outside a city possibly at a different location, those are spren formed shardblades.

Honorblades have been revealed so far to grant surgebinding abilities at the cost of dangerous levels of stormlight usage and they do not invoke any spren screaming when the KRs hold them.

I speculate that the honorblades gives the heralds their surgebinding abilities, otherwise I see it unnecessary if their honorblades offer something they already have.

Edited August 1, 2014 by kadolin

[Moogle]

As I said before, they originally belonged to the 10 Heralds. Seven of them are currently held by the Shin, with the exception of Jezrien's Honorblade, which was used by Szeth, and Talenel's blade, which was with him when he returned to Roshar.

 

Nitpick: "Taln"'s eyes did not change color from dark brown to tan when he was holding a Shardblade, and changing your eyecolor seems to be a general characteristic of held Honorblades. I wouldn't be so sure Taln has returned or that if he did he came with his Honorblade.

 

Whom did the Honorblades belong to? And there are meant to be ten of them, right?

 

Others have answered your question, but I'd recommend re-reading the first chapter of Way of Kings. It'll make more sense after WoR.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

Nitpick: "Taln"'s eyes did not change color from dark brown to tan when he was holding a Shardblade, and changing your eyecolor seems to be a general characteristic of held Honorblades. I wouldn't be so sure Taln has returned or that if he did he came with his Honorblade.

 

 

 

At the end of WoK when Taln shows up Brandon makes a point to mention how the honorblade doesn't  vanish as he faints. Since the only reason an honorblade would disappear is said to be upon the death of a Herald, it is almost certainly his honorblade

[Moogle]

At the end of WoK when Taln shows up Brandon makes a point to mention how the honorblade doesn't  vanish as he faints. Since the only reason an honorblade would disappear is said to be upon the death of a Herald, it is almost certainly his honorblade

 

Or it could be an unbonded Shardblade, which would also fit. "Taln" is a darkeyes, so he can't have been bonded to a Shardblade or else holding a bonded Honorblade (assuming all Honorblades change your eyecolor when you hold them while bonded, which seems to be correct).

Edited August 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Jaaxter he/him]

@Moogle: Is it in fact confirmed that holding an Honorblade changes your eye color? I believe we have only seen Szeth's eyes change color when holding his. I don't know if Nalan's eyes changed color when he summoned his Blade (or indeed, if it even is his Blade) but the eye color change for Szeth may be something along the line of his eyes turning blue because that is the color of the Windrunners; see also Kaladin when he took his third level in Windrunnner. Whereas Jezrien (presumably) has sapphire eyes and thus would not see any color change when he held his own blade.

 

As far as "Taln" goes, I just re-read both books and noticed that his Blade at the end of WoK is described as long, thin, and straight- like a "spike." The Blade that Dalinar takes and briefly wields in WoR is describes as sinuous- like flames, if I recall correctly. Very definitely not the same Blade. Hoid is, I believe, the most likely holder of "Taln's" original blade.

[Moogle]

@Moogle: Is it in fact confirmed that holding an Honorblade changes your eye color? I believe we have only seen Szeth's eyes change color when holding his. I don't know if Nalan's eyes changed color when he summoned his Blade (or indeed, if it even is his Blade) but the eye color change for Szeth may be something along the line of his eyes turning blue because that is the color of the Windrunners; see also Kaladin when he took his third level in Windrunnner. Whereas Jezrien (presumably) has sapphire eyes and thus would not see any color change when he held his own blade.

 

As far as "Taln" goes, I just re-read both books and noticed that his Blade at the end of WoK is described as long, thin, and straight- like a "spike." The Blade that Dalinar takes and briefly wields in WoR is describes as sinuous- like flames, if I recall correctly. Very definitely not the same Blade. Hoid is, I believe, the most likely holder of "Taln's" original blade.

 

In regards to eye color: it is not a fact, no. However, I see no reason why Szeth would have his eye color change when holding his Blade and a Herald would not. Every single Radiant has different gem-colored eyes when holding Stormlight/their Blades are summoned to our knowledge - we see Stonewards with tan eyes in Dalinar's vision, so Taln, the Stoneward's patron, should also have tan eyes. "Taln" did not, so I do not think he did not have a bonded Honorblade out. (This fits with Szeth having the same sapphire eyes as Kaladin gains when his Blade is out.)

 

Consider: Kaladin's eyes changed when he bonded Syl strongly enough to turn her into a Shardblade. Szeth's eyes change when he summons his Honorblade. Every Radiant we've seen in Dalinar's visions has had gem-colored eyes. Why would Jezrien's Honorblade be special in this regard such that it, and only it, changes the eye color of the holder? (Further question: why would this only affect regular humans and not Heralds?)

 

Brandon's systems tend to be consistent. If one Honorblade changes your eye color when it is summoned, I expect all of them to. I also expect them to work on both Heralds and regular humans, as they have no real compelling physiological differences that should stop it.

 

Nalan's eye color is never once remarked upon, which is a subject of much frustration to me. His eye color may have changed when he summoned his Blade, or it may not have. Lift and Ym were not in a position to be paying attention to such small details. The Skybreakers have smokestone as a gem, so their eyes may all be dark (or possibly grey?) anyways. Even if Nalan's eye color did not change, it is very possible he has bonded himself a regular sprenblade and never summons his Honorblade in order to avoid alerting anyone that he's a Herald.

 

As to Taln's Blade: we know Hoid didn't swap the Blades, and we know he doesn't have any Honorblades currently. Sucks for your theory (I once thought the same, and so did a lot of people). WoB:

Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?

A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

...

Q:  Does Hoid have 2 Honorblades?

A:  Hoid currently has no Honorblades.

(source)

 

It seems clear that the Blades were swapped from the description, but it is unclear why anyone would do that if "Taln" did not have an Honorblade.

 

Possible explanations:

• "Taln" may actually be Taln, and unbonded his Honorblade for inexplicable reasons and allowed it to be stolen, also for inexplicable reasons.
• "Taln" may be some peasant who had Taln's memories, or a convincing replica of them, inserted into him (through Hemalurgy or other means). He also was given Taln's actual Honorblade (but did not bond it), hence why someone would want to swap them.
• "Taln" may be Jezrien or another male Herald who went insane with guilt over the years and suffers from multiple personality disorder or something. They obtained a sprenblade, and went around pretending they were Taln. This doesn't explain why the Blades were swapped.
• A not-so-clever individual from the Ghostbloods or another organization heard that this insane guy was calling himself Taln, incorrectly determined he had an Honorblade, and made a swap of the Shardblades under Wit's nose. Not unreasonable; Amaram himself thinks that "Taln" is Taln. (Which he might be, I grant, but it seems unlikely.)

I... accidentally convinced myself of that last bullet point. Oops. Guess I have a new theory to write up.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Rybal]

I speculate that the honorblades gives the heralds their surgebinding abilities, otherwise I see it unnecessary if their honorblades offer something they already have.

 

We have confirmation from Brandon that the Heralds gained their Surgebinding from the Honorblades. We also know that they have their own abilities even without their Blades, though we haven't seen what those are, yet.

[Localconfusi0n]

Just to be sure, we aren't sure if the "Taln" that showed up in either book was actually Taln right? Because ive never been too sure on this.

[Moogle]

Just to be sure, we aren't sure if the "Taln" that showed up in either book was actually Taln right? Because ive never been too sure on this.

 

We don't know for sure. Brandon has hinted that "Taln" is not Taln before, but he's sly and tricksy and is not to be trusted when giving Aes Sedai answers.

[kadolin]

We have confirmation from Brandon that the Heralds gained their Surgebinding from the Honorblades. We also know that they have their own abilities even without their Blades, though we haven't seen what those are, yet.

TYVM!

We don't know for sure. Brandon has hinted that "Taln" is not Taln before, but he's sly and tricksy and is not to be trusted when giving Aes Sedai answers.

Lol I still believe its Taln but in a broken state. Ah and thanks for confirming that the eyes change only occur when the honorblade is being used.

When the heralds left their honorblades behind, I believe they gave up their surgebinding abilities and unbonded the honorblades. Otherwise they can sorta will it back whenever. Explains why Szeth was able to bond with one of the honorblades after.

Unbonded honorblades pretty much stay in their form the same way as an unbonded Shardblade. Bonded honorblades I believe will still stay in their physical form unlike bonded shardblades, however I remember Szeth dematerialize/materialize his bonded honorblade so I assume he has control on the honorblade's form. (Memory might be fuzzy on this part since i read somewhere honorblades remain in their physical form, feel free to correct me on this.)

Taln's initial blade was close in description to his honorblade (and yet not hidden or unsummoned) but the blade Dalinar bonded with was in a different appearance. (If it was indeed a swap, why wouldnt Bordin who escorted Taln not notice at all?) Not too sure if it was The honorblade or if something happened to his bond that caused his eyes to not reflect the intended colors. Either way, the different state he is in could explain more. [since he was left alone in Damnation, perhaps he was being subjected to the full force corruption by Odium!]

There hasn't been a significant scene where it was hinted that Taln unbonded his honorblade. (Though I do not know what it takes, i really doubt its as simple as taking it away from him, considering that dude has supernatural reflexes and instinct.)

Edited August 1, 2014 by kadolin

[Vaspin]

I think by nature of what they are, you can't de-bond an Honorblade. I think they are the Blades of the Heralds forever. Even in death they never stopped belonging to them.

 

I'm not sure of this, of course, but the Honorblades are connected to the Oathpact. It's why they left them. We don't know the specifics of the Oathpact, but they believed they would be released from it if they abandoned their Blades.

 

 

 

Q:  If someone is using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?
A:  It is indeed possible.  It does not block it.  Good question.  You do not have to bond Honorblades.  Honorblades work with whoever holds them.

 

That supports the idea of no one bonds to an Honorblade. They aren't shardblades so we shouldn't treat them as such

[kadolin]

I initially thought honorblades need no bonds until I read somewhere about Szeth's bond to the windrunner blade being broken, mentioned in the book when he was saved by Nale. That confused me some.

[Localconfusi0n]

well I think we've seen multiple types of "bonding" throughout the Cosmere so maybe Brandon means that Honorblades have no Bond in the way that Bonds seem to work on Roshar, but there is some sort of bond going on.

[Shaggai]

In regards to eye color: it is not a fact, no. However, I see no reason why Szeth would have his eye color change when holding his Blade and a Herald would not. Every single Radiant has different gem-colored eyes when holding Stormlight/their Blades are summoned to our knowledge - we see Stonewards with tan eyes in Dalinar's vision, so Taln, the Stoneward's patron, should also have tan eyes. "Taln" did not, so I do not think he did not have a bonded Honorblade out. (This fits with Szeth having the same sapphire eyes as Kaladin gains when his Blade is out.)

 

Consider: Kaladin's eyes changed when he bonded Syl strongly enough to turn her into a Shardblade. Szeth's eyes change when he summons his Honorblade. Every Radiant we've seen in Dalinar's visions has had gem-colored eyes. Why would Jezrien's Honorblade be special in this regard such that it, and only it, changes the eye color of the holder? (Further question: why would this only affect regular humans and not Heralds?)

 

Brandon's systems tend to be consistent. If one Honorblade changes your eye color when it is summoned, I expect all of them to. I also expect them to work on both Heralds and regular humans, as they have no real compelling physiological differences that should stop it.

 

Nalan's eye color is never once remarked upon, which is a subject of much frustration to me. His eye color may have changed when he summoned his Blade, or it may not have. Lift and Ym were not in a position to be paying attention to such small details. The Skybreakers have smokestone as a gem, so their eyes may all be dark (or possibly grey?) anyways. Even if Nalan's eye color did not change, it is very possible he has bonded himself a regular sprenblade and never summons his Honorblade in order to avoid alerting anyone that he's a Herald.

 

As to Taln's Blade: we know Hoid didn't swap the Blades, and we know he doesn't have any Honorblades currently. Sucks for your theory (I once thought the same, and so did a lot of people). WoB:

 

It seems clear that the Blades were swapped from the description, but it is unclear why anyone would do that if "Taln" did not have an Honorblade.

 

Possible explanations:

• "Taln" may actually be Taln, and unbonded his Honorblade for inexplicable reasons and allowed it to be stolen, also for inexplicable reasons.
• "Taln" may be some peasant who had Taln's memories, or a convincing replica of them, inserted into him (through Hemalurgy or other means). He also was given Taln's actual Honorblade (but did not bond it), hence why someone would want to swap them.
• "Taln" may be Jezrien or another male Herald who went insane with guilt over the years and suffers from multiple personality disorder or something. They obtained a sprenblade, and went around pretending they were Taln. This doesn't explain why the Blades were swapped.
• A not-so-clever individual from the Ghostbloods or another organization heard that this insane guy was calling himself Taln, incorrectly determined he had an Honorblade, and made a swap of the Shardblades under Wit's nose. Not unreasonable; Amaram himself thinks that "Taln" is Taln. (Which he might be, I grant, but it seems unlikely.)

I... accidentally convinced myself of that last bullet point. Oops. Guess I have a new theory to write up.

About that first point: It's also possible that it was forcibly unbonded at some point. We know almost nothing about what happens when the Heralds die.

[Vaspin]

I think it's clear Honorblades are in the possession of the Heralds. Based on what Brandon has said on the matter and evidence provided in the book. There also isn't enough information to hypothesize the bond between Honorblades and Heralds is somehow broken

[Aizhen]

I'm totally with Kaladin in his not wanting to become a light eyes in order to be taken seriously, but rather gain respect as a dark eyes.  Maybe  if I knew where the prejudice against dark eyes originates from... maybe it would help.  But for now, I'm hoping Taln is a dark eyed herald.  

 

But if eyes have to lighten to be a "herald"- does just holding the honor blade do it or could it be the result of holding the storm light?  I'm pretty new to this hold site and don't know if it's been discussed or if there's a WoB on it.  But from what I remember, Kaladin and Szeth are always holding stormlight when they have their blades out, and Taln is barely conscious, dragging himself to get where he's going.

 

Hoid seems to be a key to this whole thing.  He was there to "greet" Taln. Hoid being there to met a crazy, huge, ranting farmer seems strange.  I think it's Taln.  And I am very curious to know how the blades were switched... 

[Guest]

I'm totally with Kaladin in his not wanting to become a light eyes in order to be taken seriously, but rather gain respect as a dark eyes.  Maybe  if I knew where the prejudice against dark eyes originates from...

 

It's stated pretty clearly in WoK that it's a religious/historical divide. I don't have any reference pages, but I remember it was pretty clear about Lighteyes being chosen by God to lead (or the Stormfather, or similar Divine Being).  I'm uncertain who said it, but I think it was either Roshone or Adolin.

 

Toward the end of WoK, even Hoid remarks that the eye color thing is silly, but then corrects himself and states that it was once based on pretty sound reasoning. (I suspect the cause of Kaladin's eyes changing color is that reasoning)

[Moogle]

But if eyes have to lighten to be a "herald"- does just holding the honor blade do it or could it be the result of holding the storm light?  I'm pretty new to this hold site and don't know if it's been discussed or if there's a WoB on it.  But from what I remember, Kaladin and Szeth are always holding stormlight when they have their blades out, and Taln is barely conscious, dragging himself to get where he's going.

 

Hoid seems to be a key to this whole thing.  He was there to "greet" Taln. Hoid being there to met a crazy, huge, ranting farmer seems strange.  I think it's Taln.  And I am very curious to know how the blades were switched...

 

Szeth claims that merely holding his Honorblade is enough to change his eye color. He has also held Stormlight without changing his eye color.  I wrote up a post with sources here.

 

And I don't think anyone is claiming Taln is an insane farmer. Taln had supernatural dart-catching abilities at the end of WoR. He's someone important, but I'm not wholly convinced he's Taln. Most likely a Herald, but only Naln is accounted for of the male Heralds, which leaves the other four male ones unaccounted for. "Taln" could be any of them. (Given the beggar in WoK and the nervous probable-Herald with Naln, in truth there's more like two male Heralds unaccounted for. My prior probability that "Taln" is Taln is closer to 50% than 25%.)