SirNoSell Posted July 9, 2023 Report Share Posted July 9, 2023 Hi everyone, I'm not sure if this has been posted already, so go ahead and link it, delete or whatever needs to be done. I've been thinking about the way ideals progress since there's no ironclad definite way to know other than off of personalities of the characters and the information surrounding the knights. The majority of my information for this post will be referenced from this link: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/ Well, I think I may have stumbled onto something, I believe that the progression of the ideals is correlated with the clockwise direction of the Herald Wheel. I think it's best I explain using each character so we can go in order: Windrunners 2nd Ideal: “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” —The Second Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin and Lopen) The general motto and purpose of the order. Great. 3rd Ideal: “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” — The Third Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin)[10] “I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself.” — The Third Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Teft)[12] “I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself.” — The Third Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Lopen) These all have a common theme between them. They each maintain what is a positive distance between what they want to do and what they need to do. There is an order that focuses on moral justice and fairness, more specifically understanding that the rules must be followed over personal attachments. Like the Skybreakers. Their order is all about fairness and it makes sense that Windrunners would add a standard to this ideal. 4th Ideal: I accept that there will be those I cannot protect!” — The Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners (as spoken by Kaladin) Kaladin utters these words when he notices that his friend Teft is dead and he nearly resorts back to the state that did in Kholinar from Elhokar's murder. He is faced with death and will face it more. In order to progress as a leader he must accept that death is a possibility for everyone around him, no matter how hard he tries otherwise. Kaladin is always the first into a fight, he can't help himself. But when he is unable to accomplish his duty, he folds. Bravery is about moving forward despite what perceived failure one might face. While this seemed like an easy villainous act to kill Teft outright but it was actually clinical. He must have noticed how Kaladin reacted to Elhokar and then Roshone, knowing full well this would break him. Something that is a common theme among Dustbringers (I can sense the Moash Dustbringer theory fans rubbing their hands together in delight) The main goal of the Dustbringers is self-control and Kaladin will not be able to function optimally if he's not able to keep it together. 5th Ideal: I AM STORMBLESSED! We obviously don't know the last but I think some of you can tell where I'm going with this. It has been brought up on numerous occasions regarding Kaladin's medical background: He was meant to be trained as a surgeon in Kharabranth. He has trained those under him to render medical care. He talks with Syl about turning into a scalpel. He's trying to join the ardenture as well as help the mentally ill. During the tale end of RoW, we see that Kaladin had misremembered or rather misunderstood Tien's final moments and decision. This moment was instrumental in him reaching the 4th and I believe will play a bigger part in KoWT. These are all traits that an Edgedancer carries out. We know in Book 5 he is traveling to Shinovar to do some healing, in what way we don't know yet. Based on the order's focus on the simpler people, I would imagine he will be focusing on them. Other forms of overlap are that the Edgedancers were made up of nobility or at the very least had the demeanor of one and there are a number of instances in books like WoK and WoR have glimpses of his past with him being teased as a 'lordling' or 'wannabe lighteyes' to paraphrase. Both orders are noted for being scouts and accomplished weapon masters. Skybreakers 3rd Ideal: “I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath. ” —The Third Ideal of the Skybreakers, as sworn by Szeth I skipped to the third to get more to the point. The order of Dustbringers is about being brave and obedient and with this specific oath, the Skybreaker has become precise and how they pursue justice. This guideline can be a law or an individual, in this case, Dalinar. Releasers are about self-control and holding themselves accountable. Szeth has struggled very similarly to Kaladin but in an even more grotesque way. His destructive power is known throughout Roshar as the Assassin in White. The man who killed many, in particular, Gavilar the brother of the man he now serves. 4th Ideal: I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees. ” —The Fourth Ideal of the Skybreakers, as spoken by Szeth Here is where I start to stretch things a bit. From the phrasing of the words, it sounds like he is taking out an infection. The last ideal was about learning the boundaries under Dalinar's supervision and now he is acting out his sense of justice with his master's consent until he becomes his own. Edgedancers are all about remembering and this quest is very personal to him and he hasn't been home so he would find that his memory of things will be misconstrued or turn out a lot different than he remembered. Another thing to note is that if my theory is right - Both Kaladin and Szeth are on the same level of progression in the story. Kaladin is on his 4th and working on the 5th with Szeth currently working on the 4th. 5th ideal: I AM THE LAW “If you progress as a Skybreaker, you will need to become the law. To reach your ultimate potential, you must know the truth yourself, rather than relying on the crutch presented by the Third Ideal. Be aware of this.” —Szeth's highspren on the Fifth Ideal Szeth-son-son-Vallano is truthless. Was born in the Valley of Truth. The title is the next release is Knights of Wind and Truth. Need I say more? But in all honesty, will this hasn't been confirmed that I believe Truthwatchers has a resonance of empathy. They can feel people's emotions and in order to be the best law enforcer you need to balance upholding the law with the spirit of said law and how it translates to those involved. Edgedancers 3rd Ideal: “I will listen to those who have been ignored. ” —The Third Ideal of the Edgedancers, as sworn by Lift This one is connected to observing people. In particular, in this case, Lift is trying to convince Nale to see the ever storm which was the first time it forced him to acknowledge his conviction of killing Radiants was misplaced. 4th Ideal: "I will remember to care for myself/I will remember where I came from/I will remember who I used to be." Lightweavers are all about realizing who they really are and noticing the lies people tell themselves. Lift wished that she wouldn't 'grow' anymore but from a physical aspect she's growing. I imagine there is still something left in her past that we haven't come across. Maybe she will admit that she isn't a child anymore? 5th Ideal: "I will always cherish/remember what is most important about myself." Since we have so little on the Elsecaller oaths I can only go off of the purpose of the order which is to reach their potential. In terms of a character arc, this feels like it matches for someone who doesn't want to grow up but will eventually grow up while still keeping the parts of her that define her. Truthwatchers 3rd Ideal: "I will tell someone my truth." I remember towards the end of Way of Kings when Dalinar had commanded Renarin into battle, he tried to convince Dalinar otherwise because he was having his visions or he had seen something that scared him. Anyways, I think he might have sworn his ideal just before he told Dalinar and Adolin about him being a Truthwatcher in Oathbringer. Their order struggles with telling and giving others the information they possess. I even imagine that a lot of starter truthwatchers weren't upfront when they got their bond. 4th Ideal: "I will advise only on the best possible outcome." We get to the Elsecaller aspect which is about potential and the draw would be that with the vast amount of knowledge they know, they would prefer to give the information in a way that does the most good. However, I step out on a leg and say that Renarin's corrupted aspect takes root here. The scene that makes me think Renarin is close or has sworn his new ideal, was his involvement with Taravangian up to getting executed by Szeth. That scene involved T becoming a God. If that doesn't get you shardplate, I don't know what will. 5th Ideal: "I will seek to enlighten those who wish it." There is a subset of truth watchers that are linked to investigative journalists in some of the new info that came out with the release of RoW. Giving people certain amounts of information can be absolutely devastating so the Truthwatcher in question must be sure that the person they are presenting their information in the most altruistic manner even if the main consensus might disagree with it. Lightweavers 2nd truth: “What am I? I'm terrified. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan It's obvious that most of her arc is about overcoming her fear by using various identities or telling even more painful jokes. 3rd truth: “I'm a murderer. I killed my father. ” —A truth as spoken by Shallan[7] The best connection I can come up with this is the fact that Shallan's father was the one thing stopping Shallan's growth as an individual. We knew that he had saved Shallan after her attempted murder and then covered it up. Whether overtime due to the influence of the unmade or his own personal frustration, his desire to protect Shallan turned into one of abusive control. Her brother might have died had she not poisoned and strangled her father and had she and her siblings never tried to leave, who knows where the family would have ended up. 4th truth: "I killed my spren." -Paraphrased truth spoken by Shallan I don't think it's any surprise that Shallan spoke this truth in RoW that is centered around Willshapers. Blocking out the death of a spren, especially in an environment where killing spren is the biggest taboo within Shadesmar. This is also the time when Shallan loses her persona of Veil. 5th truth: "I am RADIANT!" Shallan has one alter ego left, Radiant. The Stonewards are focused on team dynamics and working with others. We can see glimpses of this with Shallan's 'Unseen Court', her operation with Adolin in tracking down the Sons of Honor, etc. But has always kept things close to the chest with her interactions with the Ghostbloods which she ended in RoW. Up until this point she had one foot in the door and out the other by keeping her dealings a secret until the end of the latest book. It will be interesting to see how all that pans out but at this point, Shallan should be divorced of her wishy-washy attitude to things and acknowledge who she really is. Shallan the RADIANT! Elsecallers As we have no official oaths to link from, I'm just going to base what I think each ideal is off of clues in Jasnah's life. 3rd Ideal: "I will express what I think is the truth" We have a small timeline of seven years off which Jasnah has been bonded to Ivory as her flashbacks to the night of her father's death was were we get a mention of Ivory's appearance. I'm not 100% sure when she started making her secular views open but I will she sure of an ideal when she made such a thing public. 4th Ideal: "I will trust those beside me" For the longest time, Jasnah was on her own in regard to her philosophical views and her knowledge of Voidbringers. The closest was the Veristitalian, which is a group of scholars. I believe she wsore this oath in Oathbringer around when she is considering killing Renarin lest he betrays them all. 5th Ideal: "I will protect the potential for a brighter future." We see Jasnah in RoW standing on the front lines with a blade and plate on. This sort of thing is usually, Kaladin and Dalinar or even Szeth sort of thing. She is coming out of her comfort zone but Hoid reminded her that she is kneecapping herself for the sake of 'fairness' that even she can recognise is pointless. The Windrunners are some of the best warriors in the Radiants along with Stonewards so if my theory is correct, it makes sense this is where Jasnah would be. She is the current Queen of Kholinar and based on her intentions, the last monarch of Kholinar. I don't know how things will pan out but she will be wearing a crown of some sort for the foreseeable future. Willshapers 3rd Ideal: Venli at the end of RoW is now searching for a home for the singers that have left the Fused. Venli up until this point has only been figuring out a means of emancipation for herself and those who are like-minded. But the next stage will be establishing a community will all these singers that have various views despite their shared desire for independence. Most likely they will face persecution from Oduim's forces and she must now have a way of defending these people which means a militia of diverse forces must be established. 4th Ideal: Once her settlement is established, there is a high chance that they will set Venli up as their leader but she will be extremely hesitant to take it or pursue this. 5th Ideal: This will most likely be the most difficult challenge for Venli. For someone who had years of resentment for following the traditions of her tribe only to be shunted in favour of her adventurous sister was what brought on her desire to bring back the Fused. We saw this clearly in the flashbacks of her before the Alethi arrived. I think this definitely makes sense. Let me know what you guys think. Am I full of it and projecting too much or am I doing a poor imitation of someone else's post? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fieri Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 I'm no expert, but I'm mildly awestruck by this theory and hope you're onto something 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reckoner89 Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) I quite like this theory - and I think there's something to it. I think it might be hard to be a bit too prescriptive in terms of what the actual wording will be though - as we have seen with the differences between Kal, Teft and The Lopen's oaths, they are unique to the individual. I also think the Lightweavers hugely screw with the system, because their oaths are all over the place (at least Shallan's have been). However, I think that might be compatible with what we know about the Lightweavers, and why the other spren distrust the Cryptics, as they are seen as not "playing by the rules". I think it's more likely that they follow a broad theme - as in the next ideal will be thematically similar to the core tenants of the next order. So we'd have Kal's 5th ideal being related to remembering. I think a good candidate would be something along the lines of "I will remember what I am fighting to protect". I think the direction Kal is going in giving up the obsessional aspects of his 2nd oath. That he will not be consumed by the fight. I think if we take the Skybreaker's 5th as a model, it is about taking on the highest understanding of the general theme of the order. That if you fight so much that you end up either neglecting or destroying the thing you were trying to protect in the first place, you haven't protected anything. This would also follow the pattern of Lirin basically teaching Kal all the oaths during his medical training. So using your system we should expect an individual's oaths to broadly conform to the following themes: 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Windrunner I will protect I will seek justice I will seek self mastery I will remember Skybreaker I will seek justice I will seek self mastery I will remember I will seek truth Dustbringer I will seek self mastery I will remember I will seek truth I will speak my truth Edgedancer I will remember I will seek truth I will speak my truth I will reach my potential Truthwatcher I will seek truth I will speak my truth I will reach my potential I will seek freedom Lightweaver Elsecaller I will reach my potential I will seek freedom I will be there when I'm needed I will unite Willshaper I will seek freedom I will be there when I'm needed I will unite I will protect Stoneward I will be there when I'm needed I will unite I will protect I will seek justice Bondsmith I will unite I will protect I will seek justice I will seek self mastery I've deliberately left the Lightweavers blank, because as I say, I think they are deliberately outside the system Edited July 13, 2023 by Reckoner89 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reckoner89 Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 Actually - the more I think about it - looking at the differences between Kal's, Teft's and The Lopen's third oaths, I've noticed a different pattern: Kal's third is about acting justly - protecting those he hates, so long as it is right - very Skybreaker Teft's third is much more about self-mastery, that he will protect himself from his own addiction - very Dustbringer The Lopen's third is much more about remembering the impact his actions can have on others - very Edgedancer So maybe it's not as simple as a straightforward progression in a clockwise direction. However, I do like the idea that a radiant progresses in their ideals by taking on aspects of other orders. It fits with the idea of the Bondsmiths being the leaders of the radiants overall and building bonds and connections between the orders. Given that it was Ishar who codified the Radiant Orders, this feels right 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 3 hours ago, Reckoner89 said: Actually - the more I think about it - looking at the differences between Kal's, Teft's and The Lopen's third oaths, I've noticed a different pattern: Kal's third is about acting justly - protecting those he hates, so long as it is right - very Skybreaker Teft's third is much more about self-mastery, that he will protect himself from his own addiction - very Dustbringer The Lopen's third is much more about remembering the impact his actions can have on others - very Edgedancer So maybe it's not as simple as a straightforward progression in a clockwise direction. However, I do like the idea that a radiant progresses in their ideals by taking on aspects of other orders. It fits with the idea of the Bondsmiths being the leaders of the radiants overall and building bonds and connections between the orders. Given that it was Ishar who codified the Radiant Orders, this feels right Hey, Welcome to the Shard! You're right about the motifs, it makes a ton of sense. But please try not to double post (posting twice (or more) back-to-back on the same thread) as it is technically against site rules. If you have something else to say after you've posted your original post, you can use the edit function on the bottom to add more. Hope that helps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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