FREAK'N SPACE TRAVEL!!!

[Pechvarry]

Could this be what we are looking for when trying to figure the FTL space travel thing?

IIRC, Brandon said somewhere that it had to do with what happened to lost energy, right? And here, we see that objects moving into the barrier are robbed of much of their kinetic energy. So it seems like it could be a start.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

SO they might not be able to make objects use metalic arts, but can tech be used to amplify the metalic arts. So expand the area affected. Also, is it possibly to place the metals directly in to the blood stream, then burn it, would that help.

[Pechvarry]

Hemalurgy and the future of man:

I've been thinking since Christmas morning about something odd (which is to say, perfectly normal for me), and since this is an "advanced culture in space" sort of concept, I'm putting it in the space travel thread. What happens if you use a hemalurgic spike that's still receiving its charge? Could people "share" powers via a spike still lodged in the original user?

We don't really know how hemalurgy bind points work, but lets pretend being stabbed in the right spot in the hand would be enough to steal an allomantic power by ripping out part of the spiritweb. Obviously, this would hurt (and according to Brandon, would leave them a different person) but not kill the person. If this were the case, could you walk around with a spike sticking out of your hand and stab people with it, temporarily giving them your powers? That sounds absurd and macabre, but imagine:

In the future, people could have metal "nodes" installed in their bodies, surgically implanted with bloodmaker ferrings standing by to keep the operation safe. These nodes would be either small plugs or small prongs. By sticking your prong in someone else' plug, you have temporarily merged spiritwebs because you are now piercing their body with your own hemalurgic spike. This would be particularly useful with Ferrings, as the recipient would be able to tap your metalminds. The uses of sharing copperminds would be staggering, let alone the utilitarian uses of most other metalminds excepting probably physical strength and speed. This is why bloodmakers would be there for the operation: as soon as a node is installed, a bloodmaker would link up so the recipient could tap an already stored goldmind to heal the wound enough to prevent side effects (but not enough to start pushing it out, I suppose).

This would likely lead to research into hemalurgic "extensions". Such as creating a cable that's hemalurgically charged but neutral, which takes on properties of whatever node it's plugged into so the characters don't have to touch shoulder-to-hip all the time.

Is there something I'm overlooking that would disallow temporary Hemalurgy?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Pechvarry

[Aeshdan he/him]

²: Put another way, could a sufficiently large metalmind filled with Investure by a Keeper who was operating at 0% Identity eventually become a sentient being in and of itself, and one with enough of a tie to Harmony to learn the Metallic Arts?

Creepy.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Is there something I'm overlooking that would disallow temporary Hemalurgy?

Potentially, sure. It all depends on whether the quality of the Spike continues to decay at that point. Which is to say, whether the ruined remains of your own Spiritweb count as "inside a body" for the purposes of Hemalurgic decay.

Also, in either case, you are slowly accrueing bits of the Spiritwebs of everyone you use the spike on, and they are losing bits (see the "more human" Koloss, when they recycled spikes).

Still - very cool idea!

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Ari he/him]

Potentially, sure. It all depends on whether the quality of the Spike continues to decay at that point. Which is to say, whether the ruined remains of your own Spiritweb count as "inside a body" for the purposes of Hemalurgic decay.

Also, in either case, you are slowly accrueing bits of the Spiritwebs of everyone you use the spike on, and they are losing bits (see the "more human" Koloss, when they recycled spikes).

Still - very cool idea!

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Well, given they're dying, they're losing more than bits of their spiritwebs! Brandon's heavily implied that Hemalurgy only works when the victim is killed in his answers to Hemalurgy questions.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I meant that the people being "linked with" lose little bits of their own Spiritwebs, when the cable/spike is removed from them.

[Ari he/him]

Interesting. We don't see any adverse affects from Spook after he removes his Pewter, spike, so if there are side-effects they aren't ALWAYS disastrous.

[Musicspren he/him]

Interesting. We don't see any adverse affects from Spook after he removes his Pewter, spike, so if there are side-effects they aren't ALWAYS disastrous.

However, Spook removed a spike that was giving him power, not stealing them. Had a steel spike gone through Spook where it would steal his tin, but somehow lodged in him, it might have temporarily allowed his Spiritweb to stay intact, but once it was removed, it would have pulled a part of his Preservation out of him, even if it didn't physically kill him. As it happened, it probably only took off a piece of someone's Preservation grafted onto his Spiritweb, without seriously harming his own.

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Hemalurgy and the future of man:

I've been thinking since Christmas morning about something odd (which is to say, perfectly normal for me), and since this is an "advanced culture in space" sort of concept, I'm putting it in the space travel thread. What happens if you use a hemalurgic spike that's still receiving its charge? Could people "share" powers via a spike still lodged in the original user?

We don't really know how hemalurgy bind points work, but lets pretend being stabbed in the right spot in the hand would be enough to steal an allomantic power by ripping out part of the spiritweb. Obviously, this would hurt (and according to Brandon, would leave them a different person) but not kill the person. If this were the case, could you walk around with a spike sticking out of your hand and stab people with it, temporarily giving them your powers? That sounds absurd and macabre, but imagine:

In the future, people could have metal "nodes" installed in their bodies, surgically implanted with bloodmaker ferrings standing by to keep the operation safe. These nodes would be either small plugs or small prongs. By sticking your prong in someone else' plug, you have temporarily merged spiritwebs because you are now piercing their body with your own hemalurgic spike. This would be particularly useful with Ferrings, as the recipient would be able to tap your metalminds. The uses of sharing copperminds would be staggering, let alone the utilitarian uses of most other metalminds excepting probably physical strength and speed. This is why bloodmakers would be there for the operation: as soon as a node is installed, a bloodmaker would link up so the recipient could tap an already stored goldmind to heal the wound enough to prevent side effects (but not enough to start pushing it out, I suppose).

This would likely lead to research into hemalurgic "extensions". Such as creating a cable that's hemalurgically charged but neutral, which takes on properties of whatever node it's plugged into so the characters don't have to touch shoulder-to-hip all the time.

Is there something I'm overlooking that would disallow temporary Hemalurgy?

Let me say that this is an awesome idea and something that I was starting to contemplate as well. Those "hemalurgic plugs" might be the last piece I was needing for my spaceship theory. I am still hesitant to use it "officially" in my theory just because it's so out there from everything else we know from the Metallic Arts.

But just imagine! A Nicrosil Twinborn acting as the fuel of the whole ship? Or a Copper and Zinc Twinborns (and maybe a Tin as well) working together to drive a ship through space at relativistic speeds? All that while using Kurkistan FTL Travel Theory to give propulsion to your ship? Man, that could be awesome!

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

... bloodmaker ferrings standing by to keep the operation safe.

This wouldn't work. Feruchemy only affects yourself, so a bloodmaker couldn't do anything for somebody else's surgery.

Well, given they're dying, they're losing more than bits of their spiritwebs! Brandon's heavily implied that Hemalurgy only works when the victim is killed in his answers to Hemalurgy questions.

Actually, he's said that you don't have to die, but it would leave you spiritually maimed.

[Pechvarry]

I'm definitely making a lot of assumptions to make it work, but it doesn't seem too far outside the realm of reason. Here's the list of things pretty much required to be true in order for it to work:

-Powers can be stolen without lethal pierce points (presumably, the power stolen would be weaker though. Acceptable loss).

-Hemalurgic implants would have zero decay since they never leave your body.

-While spiritweb distortion would occur during connection, disconnecting should return both parties back to normal with very minor lasting effects (but probably rather severe short-term disorientation, nausea, etc).

The last seems to be the one most debated. I don't see why a recipient would lose anything during a disconnect, since their Spiritweb points weren't used to take anything. I think this might lead to another assumption:

-Hemalurgic/Spiritweb/Acupuncture/whatever points come in 2 varieties: theft points and "glue" points (places where the new spiritweb chunk is glued to your own). It makes me think of a stereo with an Audio In and an Audio Out. Though the ports look the same, there's no cross-over in functionality. As pointed out, Spook doesn't have too much issues with losing his spike, and so I think as long as nodes are only installed on "Hemalurgy In" points and not "Hemalurgy Out", it shouldn't be too harmful.

This wouldn't work. Feruchemy only affects yourself, so a bloodmaker couldn't do anything for somebody else's surgery.

Read later in the post: once the node is inserted, the Bloodmaker would link to the fresh node and touch his goldmind to the patient, who would then Tap it to heal the wound. This should work, as I believe Brandon stated hemalurgy would allow you to tap the metalminds of the person you stole the powers from.

[Aeshdan he/him]

One important point: This presupposes a knowledge of Hemalurgy far beyond what anybody has as of the fourth century.

[Pechvarry]

Yeah, that's why I imagine it as a future thing.

[Ironeyes]

It could happen in one of the new Mistborn series... but Hemallurgy is all but unknown after the end of HofA.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

The last seems to be the one most debated. I don't see why a recipient would lose anything during a disconnect, since their Spiritweb points weren't used to take anything. I think this might lead to another assumption:

-Hemalurgic/Spiritweb/Acupuncture/whatever points come in 2 varieties: theft points and "glue" points (places where the new spiritweb chunk is glued to your own). It makes me think of a stereo with an Audio In and an Audio Out. Though the ports look the same, there's no cross-over in functionality. As pointed out, Spook doesn't have too much issues with losing his spike, and so I think as long as nodes are only installed on "Hemalurgy In" points and not "Hemalurgy Out", it shouldn't be too harmful.

We... don't see much of Spook between his spike's removal and him getting renewed by Sazed.

I see nothing obviously controversial about the theory that repeatedly stapling and removing bits of someone else's soul from your own might, potentially, be in some way bad.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Also, I am fairly convinced that trying this with Attribute spikes would kill you outright, as your body tries to reverse its changes.

[Aradel he/him]

We... don't see much of Spook between his spike's removal and him getting renewed by Sazed.

I see nothing obviously controversial about the theory that repeatedly stapling and removing bits of someone else's soul from your own might, potentially, be in some way bad.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Also, I am fairly convinced that trying this with Attribute spikes would kill you outright, as your body tries to reverse its changes.

The Kandra may prove to be the exception to your theory. Tensoon removes his potency spikes with no ill effect in HoA, only losing their benefit. And as far as we can tell from his appearance in AoL (spoiler) He didn't suffer from temporarily removing all his blessings, sans losing their benefit.

As far as I understand, Kandra are very spiritually similar to humans seeing as their progenitors used to be human. So removing spikes has either a negligible effect or no effect at all aside from losing their benefit.

... Unless they're inquisitors, and/or their spikes are inserted into lethal points.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Kandra interact with Hemalurgy totally differently, though. The RPG doesn't have them taking penalties for the spikes in them, and in the novels, they are able to pull their Blessings out while Ruin is at the height of his power.

If anything, Kandra are Hemalurgy-secured humans. Rashek designed them well.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Aeshdan he/him]

Kandra interact with Hemalurgy totally differently, though. The RPG doesn't have them taking penalties for the spikes in them, and in the novels, they are able to pull their Blessings out while Ruin is at the height of his power.

If anything, Kandra are Hemalurgy-secured humans. Rashek designed them well.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I think that Kandra do take a penalty from the spikes, sort of. What you have to remember is that they have no mind without the spikes, so there's no point of comparison. I think that if you could transfer the consciousness without Hemalurgy, the result would be better.

And Brandon said in the annotations that they could resist Ruin long enough to pull out the spikes because they only had two spikes and the metal around the Homeland interfered with Ruin's control.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

... except that while TenSoon is running around with four Attribute Spikes (exactly the same loadout as a Koloss), carrying crucial information for the future of humanity, Ruin did not take control of him. They're resistant, though other factors surely help.

[Windrunner he/him]

TenSoon had the Blessing of Presence which negated the emotional weakness that they gave. Along with the Blessing of Potency, he has the same amount of weakness as most normal kandra. Interestingly enough, this means that kandra with just the Blessing of Presence are immune to Ruin's touch.

[Aradel he/him]

... except that while TenSoon is running around with four Attribute Spikes (exactly the same loadout as a Koloss), carrying crucial information for the future of humanity, Ruin did not take control of him. They're resistant, though other factors surely help.

I think Tensoon was a special case. As a 'Hero' he certainly had a stronger will, spirit or whatever than most Kandra. Kind of like comparing Marsh to other inquisitors.

[Windrunner he/him]

ok I found the TenSoon quote

5) Was TenSoon more susceptable to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

5) Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I think Tensoon was a special case. As a 'Hero' he certainly had a stronger will, spirit or whatever than most Kandra. Kind of like comparing Marsh to other inquisitors.

I shall do so, then:

"Marsh, unlike other Inquisitors, had been a member (and, eventually, leader) of the Skaa rebellion for much of his life. They, on other hand, were exceptionally dutiful Obligators, who had spent years as Inquisitors worshiping the Lord Ruler as God. It would have been child's play for Ruin to convince them that it was The Lord Ruler's immortal spirit, grooming one or all of them to become the next Sliver of Infinity and guide mankind into a new era, after scourging away the unrighteous with hordes of Koloss. Marsh would never believe that, and they both knew it, which is why Marsh got more spikes then other Inquiisitors, with the net result that he barely had enough control to twitch a finger. Had any other, less-spiked Inquisitor had Marsh's perspective, they might have been even more devastating to Ruin's plans... had they been smart enough to use that advantage nearly as well as Marsh used his. In short, Marsh differs from other Inquisitors wildly in terms of perspective and reasoning, but despite being famous for his resolve, we have no reason to assume he was more resistant to Hemalurgy innately."

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Also, didn't TenSoon have Mental Fortitude? My books are not with me right now, but I recall the footnotes remarking that we never actually see the Emotional Fortitude Blessing in the book.

[Pechvarry]

So it could work, and there's a pretty good argument about it not working. It's probably the province of another thread that has nothing to do with space travel.

If a method for sharing powers without long term negative effects like this does work - or the lasting effects are minimal if you only "pair" up with the same few people, creating military structures where the nodes are only shared with squad mates and squads never rotate members - the future of Scadriens could be pretty darn awesome. There are a lot of follow-up questions, such as if you could split the power multiple ways. i.e. Pierce the spiritweb in such a way that you're weakening the power of the donor instead of taking completely, and giving only a very weak portion of the power to the recipients. Not an issue, as this would create an easy path to Compounding and shared Investiture to make up for weakness in the different systems.

But it could be a gateway to investing objects, too. Having a ship with a plug that's just waiting for an Iron Ferring to come along and store weight for it, creating Mass Effects.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Pechvarry