Squires: Loss of Squiredom?

[jefftucker0525]

So, we know that Squires get their abilities to to a closeness or connection with a KR who is capable of granting them Squiredom, but can they lose it? I think that they obviously could, but how? If they no longer are close to the KR who originally granted them Squiredom they probably would lose it, but is the closeness just a matter of cognitive perception, or is their also a physical limitation of distance to it?

 

At the end of WoR Kaladin seems to be about to fly off and save his family i believe. So if this takes him too long will all of his Squires lose their ability to use Stormlight or will it just continue as normal? It would make sense in a way that they must be physically near them to use their abilities, atleast to a certain extent. I know Lopen was using Stormlight back in the camp to heal his arm while Kaladin was battling on the Shattered Plains, but maybe this was just close enough for him to do so. Besides distance and a loss of closeness with a KR i think their must be some other ways to lose Squiredom, like do you have to uphold the general ideas of the Order that you have your abilities from in order to use Stormlight? Not in the same sense that an actual KR would, but in a lower tier, must you atleast try your best to uphold the Windrunners honor in order to be a Windrunners Squire, or can you do whatever you want so long as you are close to a Windrunner in a way that grants you Squiredom?

 

This is kind of a rant, however i feel that these are legitimate questions about Squiredom. Let me know what you think.

[Wyndrunner he/him]

I feel like Squiredom has more to do with cognitive relationship to the KR than geographic distance. It probably also depends on the squire's perception of the KR because we know how important that is in the Cosmere. Perhaps the way that Windrunners have squires has to do with them being perceived as leaders or as heroes. The Bridgerunners definitely have this sort of feeling about Kaladin. I like your idea that they must also vaguely observe the Ideals because it just seems like it would fit.

An idea I just had is this: What if the original Surgebinders couldn't (or didn't) have Squires? Does anyone have any information or WoB's on this?

[11thorderknight]

We know from WoB that the Windrunners had more, and possibly more powerful, squires than the other orders, and that some orders did not have any.

 

One thing that's really interesting to me is whether the squires are tied to a specific Knight, or whether they are tied to the Order in general. Meaning, if for instance Kaladin were to die, or abandon his oaths, or whatever, would his squires lose their abilities? Or would they persist so long as they kept true to the Ideals of the Order?

[Terisen he/him]

I feel like Squiredom has more to do with cognitive relationship to the KR than geographic distance. It probably also depends on the squire's perception of the KR because we know how important that is in the Cosmere. Perhaps the way that Windrunners have squires has to do with them being perceived as leaders or as heroes. The Bridgerunners definitely have this sort of feeling about Kaladin. I like your idea that they must also vaguely observe the Ideals because it just seems like it would fit.

 

This was my general interpretation of how it worked too.  The Cognitive aspect isn't limited by geographic location, so despite Kaladin leaving part, if not all, of his bridgemen, I think they'll still be able to use Stormlight.  Imagine how disappointed Lopen would be if he suddenly lost the ability to draw in Stormlight to heal his arm right after he found out he could do it!

 

 

We know from WoB that the Windrunners had more, and possibly more powerful, squires than the other orders, and that some orders did not have any.

 

One thing that's really interesting to me is whether the squires are tied to a specific Knight, or whether they are tied to the Order in general. Meaning, if for instance Kaladin were to die, or abandon his oaths, or whatever, would his squires lose their abilities? Or would they persist so long as they kept true to the Ideals of the Order?

 

I think that they would definitely lose the ability in that case.  The squires have made no oaths, so I would guess that their ability is something like "siphoning" the ability from their Knight.  If that Surgebinding ability goes away for the Knight, all capabilities to draw in Stormlight evaporates.

[11thorderknight]

This was my general interpretation of how it worked too.  The Cognitive aspect isn't limited by geographic location, so despite Kaladin leaving part, if not all, of his bridgemen, I think they'll still be able to use Stormlight.  Imagine how disappointed Lopen would be if he suddenly lost the ability to draw in Stormlight to heal his arm right after he found out he could do it!

 

 

 

I think that they would definitely lose the ability in that case.  The squires have made no oaths, so I would guess that their ability is something like "siphoning" the ability from their Knight.  If that Surgebinding ability goes away for the Knight, all capabilities to draw in Stormlight evaporates.

 

See, that's the thing - that's an assumption, and we don't know that for sure. If you think about it, that's a pretty precarious position to be in during wartime. Take out the leader, and the troops all become ineffective? It could just as easily be that the knight serves as a catalyst to bind the squires to their particular order as a whole.

[Terisen he/him]

See, that's the thing - that's an assumption, and we don't know that for sure. If you think about it, that's a pretty precarious position to be in during wartime. Take out the leader, and the troops all become ineffective? It could just as easily be that the knight serves as a catalyst to bind the squires to their particular order as a whole.

 

Well, it's all assumptions at this point from anyone!    We just don't have enough info about squires to make definitive statements yet.  Book 3 can't come quick enough.

 

But your statement about taking out the leader and having the troops become ineffectual is a tactic that existed in warfare for a long, long time.  The troops would become disorganized and disheartened.  It's why they would have specific guards for the commander (you see it in the Stormlight books too with the Honor Guards).  So it's just an extension for the Radiants.  You take out the Radiant, you're more than halfway to winning.  It's not really that different, just with Surgebinding powers mixed in.

[jefftucker0525]

It would be really inconvenient for Squires to lose their powers mid-battle due to their Radiant dying, odds are that they would be pretty reliant on their Stormlight and losing it in the middle of a fight would, at the very least, put them off balance. A lot of them would probably die on the spot from the sudden disorientation because enemies would jump on their momentary lapse.

 

 

Also, side note, do you think a Squire could wield a dead Shardblade without the screams, because the link between them and their Radiant/Order/whatever it is their bonded to, might extend enough that they could hear them, or do you think they would be fine?

[happyman he/him]

It would be really inconvenient for Squires to lose their powers mid-battle due to their Radiant dying, odds are that they would be pretty reliant on their Stormlight and losing it in the middle of a fight would, at the very least, put them off balance. A lot of them would probably die on the spot from the sudden disorientation because enemies would jump on their momentary lapse.

 

That it's inconvenient, or that it making radiants a high-priority target, doesn't make it false.  Conservation of energy is blasted inconvenient at times, as is the second law of thermodynamics, but we just live with it because we have to.  Squires depowering when their Knight dies is blasted inconvenient, if it happens, but it's not less convenient than not having squires at all, so Radiants would have squires despite the tactical weakness it would result in.  It is overshadowed quite a bit by the tactical necessity of having them in the first place.

Edited June 19, 2014 by happyman

[RShara she/her]

I keep reading the title of this post as "Loss of Squirreldom."