Honorblade round-up

[11thorderknight]

So, we know from Szeth that the Stone Shamanate has been hiding the Honorblade collection for some time. We also know from WoB that Szeth, prior to being made Truthless, was a very respected member of Shin society. Which means he was likely high enough up in the ranks to know about the Honorblades and what they could do. 

 

We also have WoB that shortly after the breaking of the Oathpact, one of the heralds doubled back and took back his Blade. (I believe the pronoun "his" was specifically used, which is important since 5 of the 9 were in fact women).

 

In the Taravangian interlude, Szeth visits him and has a freakout about seeing Kaladin and starting to realize that he was, in fact, correct. Taravangian talks him down, saying that Kaladin must have stolen one of the other Honorblades; "one of the two that allows Regrowth". For one thing, this tells us that Taravangian knows about the Blades. For another, it confirms that neither Vedel nor Paliah took her Blade back. We can add Shalash to that list, since she specifically mused about getting herself a Shardblade in her interlude in Way of Kings.

 

Why am I harping on this? Because despite being very surprised and shaken by seeing Kaladin heal a Shardblade wound, he doesn't seem very fazed by seeing him use Gravitation. And if he's convinced himself that Kaladin has stolen another Honorblade....well, there are only two that allow use of Gravitation, and Szeth is currently holding one. The other belongs to Nale, who we all have been assuming as the herald that took his Blade back. But in that case, Szeth should have been totally shocked to see someone else use Gravitation.

 

Maybe this is over-reading things. But keep in mind that we never see Nale/Darkness use his surges, just a generic Shardblade. And if it wasn't him, and it wasn't one of the girls, that only leaves Kalak and Ishar...and Kalak seems like Nale's lackey at this point. So....where's Ishar?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Why am I harping on this? Because despite being very surprised and shaken by seeing Kaladin heal a Shardblade wound, he doesn't seem very fazed by seeing him use Gravitation. And if he's convinced himself that Kaladin has stolen another Honorblade....well, there are only two that allow use of Gravitation, and Szeth is currently holding one. The other belongs to Nale, who we all have been assuming as the herald that took his Blade back. But in that case, Szeth should have been totally shocked to see someone else use Gravitation.

 

You're not reading the chapter right, I don't think. That first encounter, Szeth never sees Kaladin use any lashings at all, just be infused and heal that Shardblade wound and the wounds from the fall.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Kurkistan

[signspace13 he/him]

Going through a re-read of WoK at the moment and I just read the chapter Gibletish, the one where Hoid reveals himself for the first time (well actually says the name). One of High-prince Hatham's ardents says this

 

“The city’s pattern is central to the Emuli religion,” the ardent said. “They claim it is their ancestral homeland, a gift to them from the Heralds. And the Tukari are led by that god-priest of theirs, Tezim. So the conflict is religious in nature.”

 

 This god-priest must be someone who can prove some power and knowledge, perhaps Ishar with an honorblade or one of the others? really just pure speculation but that is what I thought about when I heard it...

[Windrunner he/him]

I think that perhaps Tezim gets a brief shout-out in book two as well.

This creature in Tukar, however, is different. I’m not convinced he is human. If he is, he’s certainly not of the local species . . .”

[signspace13 he/him]

I think that perhaps Tezim gets a brief shout-out in book two as well.

 

This suggests that he has the appearance of a non-rosharan, something that is often atributed to the heralds, with Taln, Nale, and the supposed Shalash. But it doesn't suggest that he has an honorblade.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Maybe this is over-reading things. But keep in mind that we never see Nale/Darkness use his surges, just a generic Shardblade. And if it wasn't him, and it wasn't one of the girls, that only leaves Kalak and Ishar...and Kalak seems like Nale's lackey at this point. So....where's Ishar?

 

We may not see Nale use any specific surges, but he does Surgebind. In Lift's chapter he glows and she remarks on how unfair it is that he was awesome too.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that it's Ishar who is Nale's lackey, not Kalak.

[11thorderknight]

We may not see Nale use any specific surges, but he does Surgebind. In Lift's chapter he glows and she remarks on how unfair it is that he was awesome too.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that it's Ishar who is Nale's lackey, not Kalak.

 

Why do you think that?

[11thorderknight]

 

You're not reading the chapter right, I don't think. That first encounter, Szeth never sees Kaladin use any lashings at all, just be infused and heal that Shardblade wound and the wounds from the fall.

 

I meant later, when they're having their sky-duel. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Why do you think that?

It's part of a larger theory. If you open up the spoiler tag in my signature there's a link to my thread about it.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Ooh! I have this theory developing that the Heralds are from Yolen and some are dragons. If he isn't convinced Ishar/Kalak (whichever) is human, maybe they are a dragon. There is a WoB where Brandon RAFOs a question if the Heralds are Roshar native. I for one don't think from the Prelude that Kalak is a dragon, so I think it's Ishar.

[11thorderknight]

I meant later, when they're having their sky-duel. 

 

So I went back and re-read that scene - Szeth specifically says to Kaladin "you have stolen Honorblades". 

 

"Honorblades"

 

Plural.

 

Which means, he thinks Kaladin healed his Shardblade wound using Regrowth Blade 4 or 5, and flying using Blade 2. He's given it enough thought to realize that no single Blade would explain it, but he still thinks it's possible. He doesnt' give up on the stolen-Honorblade-theory until he sees Syl become a spear and a shield. Which means, he still has enough rationality to think things through somewhat logically. Therefore, if it was not possible that Kaladin has Blade 2, because Blade 2 was never part of the Shin collection, that would be a big problem for Szeth.

 

I'll grant that this is not absolute evidence by any means, but it is definitely food for thought. Just because we've seen Nale doesn't mean that he is the one who has his Blade.

Edited June 18, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[Kurkistan he/him]

I can't say that "rationality" is something I'll be crediting Szeth with during that sequence.

[Moogle]

...

 

This is very good evidence that Nalan did not go back for his Blade, but as Kurk says, 'rational' is not a word that fits Szeth. It's also at odds with the part where we see Nalan take in Stormlight through Lift (though I grant we don't know that 100%).

[11thorderknight]

This is very good evidence that Nalan did not go back for his Blade, but as Kurk says, 'rational' is not a word that fits Szeth. It's also at odds with the part where we see Nalan take in Stormlight through Lift (though I grant we don't know that 100%).

 

Actually, Szeth has never been irrational. Crazy, yes. But not irrational. He looks for any remote possibility that Kaladin is not a real, spren-bonded Surgebinder, but when faced with irrefutable proof, he accepts it. Also, we have a history of world-building details being hinted at through Szeth's point-of-view.

 

Yes, we know that Nale can use Stormlight and has a Shardblade, but we just don't know enough about the heralds to say that means he absolutely must have an Honorblade.

[Moogle]

Actually, Szeth has never been irrational. Crazy, yes. But not irrational. He looks for any remote possibility that Kaladin is not a real, spren-bonded Surgebinder, but when faced with irrefutable proof, he accepts it. Also, we have a history of world-building details being hinted at through Szeth's point-of-view.

 

Yes, we know that Nale can use Stormlight and has a Shardblade, but we just don't know enough about the heralds to say that means he absolutely must have an Honorblade.

 

Your first point is very convincing, but it's still not enough, I think. Szeth only saw Kaladin Lash at the end of the book, at which point he reverted to the "Honorblades" thing. When he saw Syl morph, he still refused to accept it for quite some time. When the Voidbringers summoned the Everstorm, it wasn't enough. He was almost completely insane by the end. You're right that Szeth isn't completely irrational and there is some ability to reason left to him, but I'm not convinced he was thinking clearly enough to realize that there was no Honorblade that could give Kaladin Gravity. (Assuming he even knows which Blade is missing.)

 

It's enough to make me uncertain on Nalan, though. As to your second point:

Rybal

Q:  Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are.

A:  The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with.  It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

(source)

 

If we saw Nalan Surgebind, then it's virtually guaranteed he has his Honorblade. Here's the passage in question:

She glanced down the hallway. She could swear he was glowing faintly, and he was certainly running too quickly.

Darkness was awesome too.

“That is not fair!” Lift shouted , scrambling to her feet and dashing down a side hallway— the way she’d come when sneaking with Gawx. Her body had already started to feel tired again. One roll didn’t get it far.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Moogle

[11thorderknight]

That's a good point about the "Darkness was awesome too" bit; he sure seems to be surgebinding there.