Moogle Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Perhaps something that's already been discussed, but we've been talking a lot about Snapping, because both Allomancy and Surgebinding explicitly mention you need to 'Snap' to use the powers of both. The Mistborn annotations actually tell us why this is: My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.Allomancy is the same. It’s in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That’s because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now.Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn’t happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.(source) Allomancy is imbalanced because it requires more Preservation than Ruin. You need to Snap to let your extra-Preservationy Allomancy bit free from between Ruin and Preservation. Because of this, we can probably assume that humans on Roshar are Invested by both Odium and Honor, and to get the Honor bit out of you to link with a spren made (partially) of Honor, you need to endure emotional trauma to bypass Odium's Investiture in you. Appropriately, once this happens, Surgebinders stop feeling the Thrill. Similarly, Feruchemy is a balanced art, of both Preservation and Ruin. It requires no Snapping because there's no imbalance to be overcome. Awakening, which is a system on a world with only one Shard, requires no Snapping, as there's no Shards to oppose Endowment. I'm not sure on Elantris, but I am reasonably confident it doesn't require Snapping. I haven't seen this annotation mentioned much. We always seem to focus on this particular WoB: KchanHow does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?Brandon SandersonHe couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.(source) Interestingly, this implies that Sazed might have made Snapping easier to handle by decreasing the amount of Preservation in every human, which might mean that every Allomancer is slightly weaker than they were in the Final Empire. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moogle 5
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 In Elantris, the Shaod is Snapping. And we have a WoB that Harmony is one shard now. They've combined. Will the need for Snapping eventually leave because of this? 2
Chaos he/him Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Though while the Shaod seems like Snapping, it doesn't require trauma or a "damaged soul" (in the language of Surgebinding from the back of Words of Radiance). It comes suddenly. It is sort of like Snapping, but without the trauma aspect. Additionally, Harmony is kind of like a Shard, but it is still composed of two Shards. The language Brandon used is "a king of two countries is still a king". It would be interesting if eventually Snapping was unnecessary because of this effect. That might be a good way to test whether this theory is true, if we asked when Harmony was fully bound together (it's partial now, and would take effort to split Ruin and Preservation now, but I suspect the effect is not done), would Snapping be necessary. 2
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Wouldn't Humans on Roshar also be composed of a bit of Cultivation? I like the idea that multiple Shards require snapping, I just don't think it's limited to 2. Nalthis is the best support of this idea to me, that Anyone can Awaken if they have the breaths. Harmony is one shard, but he still has diametrically opposed "powers" so to speak I believe. It is Preservation's power that allows him to hear people, but Ruin's power that lets him speak to them, which is why he needed to spike Wax. Functionally now they are the same, but they are probably still distinct within people themselves. 3
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Humanity, Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar, Before Odium was. So Humanity is composed of Honor and Cultivation. 2
Chaos he/him Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I mentioned that to Moogle, and he came up with a suggestion that maybe humanity has Odium in it now: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8537-snapping-in-alloy-of-law/#entry151124 1
Moogle Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Wouldn't Humans on Roshar also be composed of a bit of Cultivation? Only the Horneaters, I think. The Horneaters have modified molars that let them crunch shells. Most telling, though, is that the Horneaters can swim in the "emerald pools" (Cultivation's Shardpool!) without dying, while airsick lowlanders die if they try. It's more of a topic for another thread, but I am firmly convinced that if you don't have a bit of Investiture from Shard X inside of you (or magic healing - though that may not be enough), you will die if you try to use the Shardpool of X. Hoid is fortunate in that he's got some Adonalsium in him (probably?) and can use any Shardpool. Also: Tanavast calls Kaladin "Child of Honor", not "Child of Cultivation". Also, there's a set of WoBs I can produce regarding the Parshendi if anyone wants: they were not originally of Cultivation or Odium, and are not of Honor. Humanity, Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar, Before Odium was. So Humanity is composed of Honor and Cultivation. As Chaos says, I made an idea in another thread about that. I've copied it here: I'd guess that Odium did invest himself in humanity. We've got a couple of suggestive WoBs: Shadowsaber223 () If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed? Brandon Sanderson The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial. (source) Q: Was Shallan's father influenced at all by Odium? B. Yes. (source) To use a Shard's magic system, most of the time you need to have a bit of their Investiture in you. You can't be an Allomancer without having the genetics for it (or cheating via lerasium to get the required genetics), you can't use the AonDor if you're not of the right lineage/born in the area, that sort of thing. Also, a lot of humanity really does seem quite hateful on Roshar. Investiture has effects on your personality. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moogle 3
Tempus Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Hey, so it turns out I had nearly the EXACT SAME theory sitting in my 'theories in progress docket'. I had a good laugh about it with Moogle in the chat, so I may as well post it here (with no refinements). Snapping is necessary when a person is Invested with multiple Shards Quote: My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate. Allomancy is the same. It’s in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That’s because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside. As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now. Nature of Snapping Quote: Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn’t happen as frequently and is more difficult to control. • All people are Invested, a little of Adondude, and a bunch from whatever Shards are in Invested in their home • People with magic • Snapping occurs due to intense emotions • Snapping breaks/creaks/damages the spiritweb, that damage is actually 'Snapping' (find the quotes for this) • Cracking the spirit web doesn't actually allow Investiture through the spirit web, as much as it allows Investiture of one Intent through the part of the spirit web aligned with another Intent • Corollary: Like how Investiture resists Investiture, the Identity provided by the Shardic Intent causes competing (different Identity) Innate Investitures to resist each other. Each System • Allomancy requires snapping for Preservation to trump Ruin • Feruchemy is balanced, no snapping • Hemalurgy requires snapping to trump Preservation (but being killed by a spike pretty much takes care of it) • Breath is single Shard, no snapping • Surgebinding is of Honor/Cultivation Balance, and needs to trump Odium's Investiture (find quotes) • Fabrials... no need for Innate Investiture within a person, nothing to overcome • Voidbinding... might be Cult/Odium, needs to trump Honor? If Parshendi Stormformthings are voidbinding, it's notable they were accessed through betrayal/etc • AonDor seems to need limited Snapping, in the form of Shaod. Devotion trump Dominion? • Dahkor seems to need Snapping, Dominion trump Devotion? • Forgery is in Balance • ChayShan seems in Balance • Bloodsealing... ??? • Mythwalker, no Snapping, maybe indication of one Shard? Exceptions and Notes: • Original Adonalsium does not block subIntents (Shards), because they share a sort of parent/child Identity (programming, not genetic) • Scadrial humans have no Adonalsium Investment, as they were created post-Shattering, thus snapping is more violent for them since there is more balance to overcome. (eg. 60% Pres, 40% Ruin, versus something like 30% Honor, 30% Cult, 10% Odium, 30% Adonalsium) • Sazed made Snapping easier by bringing the two power sources closer together, in Harmony. Thus, the power has Identity that is less opposing and less separate than previously. • Snapping to trump/crack (maybe change this term) an Innate Investiture seems to be easier with an emotion that parallels the Intent you want to triumph. We're also currently talking about whether or not you can do multiple snappings (confirmed by WoB) for more than one Investiture, it's leaning towards yes for now. And how Snapping would be affected if you had multiple Shardworld parents (and thus more Investitures). Also a loaded discussion about Allomantic strength and snapping relations. Edit: accidentally left in unpublished stuff, now removed, apologies. Edited June 12, 2014 by Tempus 1
Curiosity he/him Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Only the Horneaters, I think. The Horneaters have modified molars that let them crunch shells. Most telling, though, is that the Horneaters can swim in the "emerald pools" (Cultivation's Shardpool!) without dying, while airsick lowlanders die if they try. It's more of a topic for another thread, but I am firmly convinced that if you don't have a bit of Investiture from Shard X inside of you (or magic healing - though that may not be enough), you will die if you try to use the Shardpool of X. Hoid is fortunate in that he's got some Adonalsium in him (probably?) and can use any Shardpool. Hoid is from Yolen, where humanity was originally created (by Adonalsium), so, yes, he has Investiture from Adonalsium in him, which probably allows him to use all Shardpools. There's a thread related to this topic. Maybe Adonalsium (universal Investiture) allows him to adapt to magic systems more easily than others.
Moogle Posted June 13, 2014 Author Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Hoid is from Yolen, where humanity was originally created (by Adonalsium), so, yes, he has Investiture from Adonalsium in him, which probably allows him to use all Shardpools. There's a thread related to this topic. Maybe Adonalsium (universal Investiture) allows him to adapt to magic systems more easily than others. Do you have a source that says Adonalsium created humanity? All I know is that humanity originated from Yolen. Edited June 13, 2014 by Moogle
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 I think the closest we come is this AETHLINGWhere did humanity originate in the cosmere? BRANDON SANDERSONThe first planet with humans on it was Yolen.
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