Guest Jacob Santos Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) I was thinking about it and we know of two specific elements: stone (Earth) and Wind, which are further broken into two more orders each. I am of course, new to the forums, and from what I've read so far, I have not seen this espoused. The third that we know of is Soulcasting, which I suppose could be termed Spirit in the old magic systems. Using this, the two other elements are fire and water. I do admit that it is obvious that the Orders do not follow the old magic elements completely, but I remember a reference to ash in the prologue which might have had to do with Fire in a general sense. I unfortunately don't have much proof and also don't have access to the charts of the Heralds and orders. I am interested in knowing if anyone else figured this out and what their thoughts were. Are their links to discussions on or about this? Edited November 11, 2011 by Jacob Santos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy he/him Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 i think its tied mroe to the fundamental forces of the universe (physics style not magic), like electromagnetism and strong/weak forces gravity that could just be me tho! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prehistoricman Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't think gravity, pressure, travel and transformation (or whatever the surge is that's involved with soulcasting) would exactly fit in such a scheme. Since it seems you are new, I suggest you read up on the cosmere if you don't mind reading spoilers for other books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jacob Santos Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) I have already given a brief explanation based on the assumption that people are familiar with Geomancy, Japanese folklore, and the Japanese RPGs dealing with Geomancy and derivatives of the 4 or 5 magical systems. If you need a better explanation, then I'm willing to give one. However, I was merely hoping to point out that the orders that we haven't seen might have to do with Fire and Water in some form. Not literally controlling the essence of fire and water, but binding with specific fire and water spren that deal with the fire and water surges. Drawing on what I've already stated: Air = Windrunners / Stormrunners (?). Spirit = Soulcasting. Earth = Stonewards / Dustbringers [1] Fire = Dustbringers [1] Obviously, there are no orders which control the entirely of what would be considered part of the four or five magic elements of Geomancy. It is also to say that while gravity and pressure indeed do not have anything to do with Air, in the historic sense of Geomancy, what the displays appear to onlookers does suggest Air to those ignorant of what Honor spren allow. The very fact that one of the orders is incorrectly named Wind as part of the name leaves me to somewhat buy into this theory. Given that Honor Spren are also named Windspren does give some credence to my theory as well. The only parts of Geomancy we haven't seen are Fire and Water. Fire I believe has been referenced, but the extent of its abilities is unknown. Think narrow applications of Geomancy + Spirit instead of the usual broad applications normally applied to Japanese RPG, folklore, and modern derivatives of Geomancy in Fantasy. [1] "Even some section of rock smoldered, The dustbringers had done their work well." Could apply to Fire or Earth or a combination of the two. Okay, I'll admit I could be wrong: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/images/wok/tWoK_ENDSHEET-FRONT-1-webres.jpg Edited November 13, 2011 by Jacob Santos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ye but brandon seems to like physics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prehistoricman Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ye but brandon seems to like physics Unless he needs to violate the laws of physics (I'm pretty sure that lifeless creation in warbreaker violates the laws of thermodynamics). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcanist Lupus he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Unless he needs to violate the laws of physics (I'm pretty sure that lifeless creation in warbreaker violates the laws of thermodynamics). I don't think it's a violation. It just draws upon color as an energy source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveAM he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I don't think it's a violation. It just draws upon color as an energy source. I saw this on the Wikipedia page for Warbreaker under Reception. Orson Scott Card said that he initially found some aspects of the magic system disappointing because he felt it was too far-fetched to obtain magical power from color. He did not mind it as much when it turned out that the draining of color was a symptom of magic use rather than the source of the power. He stated that "As with all good fantasy fiction, the story isn't about the magic; that's just the rule set within which the real story takes place. That story is absolutely up to Sanderson's very high standard, with political intrigue, carefully differentiated cultures and believable human motivations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcanist Lupus he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I saw this on the Wikipedia page for Warbreaker under Reception. I did not know that. Thank you. My point still stands, though, that the magic is introducing energy into the system, therefore I don't think it would violate the laws of thermodynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jacob Santos Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I think that while real world physics are and can be applied, as with any magical system, real world rules are often traded for in world rules. After all, magical systems don't and can't exist in the real world and they are a violation. Unless of course, there is a god powering the magical system. It is one of the reasons I enjoy Brandon's brand of magical systems better than other magical systems. Other magical systems appear to based on the concept of, "Hey, this would be neat, but oh wait, that would violate the rules I set up. Oh well, like the reader is going to know or care." Which I mean, Brent Weeks seems to be in the same school as far as magical systems and the quote is a paraphrase of something he said in reference to wanting to do something, but realizing it would violate the world he set up. If I remember correctly, he changed some of the rules to allow for what he wanted and developed a better set of rules for his magical system. I don't think using real world physics should be the basis of what is or what can't be possible in world. I doubt Brandon is an expert in all things Physics, Biology, sciences, etc. Of course, he probably has a team of experts to draw on, but with many of the authors I've read on inspirations. Telling a compelling story and setting up the rules for the magical system is better than having Hard Fantasy, which is close to impossible since you'd have Hard Science Fiction with fantasy elements. Err. damnation, this would mean that Brandon's books are science fiction as opposed to strict fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Err. damnation, this would mean that Brandon's books are science fiction as opposed to strict fantasy. The distinction between science fiction and fantasy is thinner than an atom, and breached just as often. You have the extremes of Hard Science Fiction, it which it should (at least in principle) be possible in the world as we know it, and Extreme Fantasy, in which the rules are explicitly left vague and mystical and absolutely impossible in anything like the real world. Then you have everything else in between. Anything which is claimed to occur connected to the "real" world has to pay a certain amount of lip service to science; otherwise the telephones and refrigerators, not to mention computers, stop working. Even in stand-alone fantasy worlds, commonality between the way our world works and their world is needed or else we can't relate. Somewhere in this mess, there might be a line, but good luck ever getting two different people to agree on the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silus - Shard of Flame he/him Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 The classical elements that you listed wouldn't work as Surges, not just because Brandon is using a different set of forces for Surgebinding, but because there are only five of them, where there are ten Surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prehistoricman Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 I don't think it's a violation. It just draws upon color as an energy source. I actually wasn't thinking about energy; I was thinking about entropy. Perhaps a better illustration of this would be normal awakening where the breath is recovered. Unless you can only re-use a breath so much (has anyone asked Brandon this?), it seems that this would be a violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid he/him Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 I actually wasn't thinking about energy; I was thinking about entropy. Perhaps a better illustration of this would be normal awakening where the breath is recovered. Unless you can only re-use a breath so much (has anyone asked Brandon this?), it seems that this would be a violation. Maybe I misunderstand entropy but can't entropy decrease without a violation if energy is added to the system (thus increasing the entropy of another system) I think that is what is happening when color is drained to perform an awakening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauren.e135 she/her Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 The classical elements that you listed wouldn't work as Surges, not just because Brandon is using a different set of forces for Surgebinding, but because there are only five of them, where there are ten Surges. It wouldn't be hard to draw upon more elements. They wouldn't be completely classical, but it could still be done and stay true to the theme. Wind, Fire, Water, Earth, Lightning, Ice maybe. Or perhaps five are classical elements and five are something else. I actually wasn't thinking about energy; I was thinking about entropy. Perhaps a better illustration of this would be normal awakening where the breath is recovered. Unless you can only re-use a breath so much (has anyone asked Brandon this?), it seems that this would be a violation. I think the entropy in Awakening would affect the objects awakened. The breaths are the energy where as the objects being used are the "machines" which accumulate entropy? My guess is you can only awaken an object so many times, but as long as you are able to regather all of the breaths, there is no loss there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy he/him Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 no i believe he is saying that the colour is drained as energy, not the breaths they are not used up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcanist Lupus he/him Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 It wouldn't be hard to draw upon more elements. They wouldn't be completely classical, but it could still be done and stay true to the theme. Wind, Fire, Water, Earth, Lightning, Ice maybe. Or perhaps five are classical elements and five are something else. We know that Kaladin's surgebinding is related to gravitation and air pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 My two cents: Brandon tends to use real-world physics as a basis for his systems than older theories (although he knows not to follow it slavishly). This follows a very long tradition of using our best current understanding of the world as a place to start crafting fiction. Thus rather than using the classical elements (which are really just an outmoded physical theory), Brandon is more likely to use "fundamental forces" as a basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni he/him Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) According to Ars Arcanum, in Vorinism there are ten elements, which can be translated, roughly, according to their various focuses as wind, smoke, spirit/fire, crystal, wood, water(blood), oil, metal, stone, flesh/organics. Each of the orders was named after a single element, and has two surges as their primary powers (Windrunners have surges of gravity and air pressure). Surges correspond more or less to the physical powers. Edited November 17, 2011 by Satsuoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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