Yumiya Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 (edited) There has been a lot of talk about who Trell is, what Trellium is, and where the corruption is coming from. Lots of theories center around Autonomy, Harmony and Odium. Here is a very different take. The TLDR: Trell is an avatar (one of several/many?) of Adonalsium who survived the shattering. Trellium is actually the original upper-case God Metal, aka the lost metal. But it has been corrupted. The group that recruits Marasi is the 17th shard. Ok, lets unpack that just a bit. What is an avatar and who can make one? Quote Brandon Sanderson An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) So lower-case-g gods can make avatars, which would imply that the upper-case-g God could have made them too. We know that Trell is related to a shard, and that Sanderson has referred to an avatar as a Shard of Adonalsium (though he was referring to Patji in relation to Autonomy there). We know that other shards have created avatars and that avatars can form naturally as well. So Adonalsium before the shattering had numerous avatars across the worlds, who survived the shattering. We have heard mention of them as "Thousand Eyes of Trell", which were not stars, but avatars of Ado. They continued about their business of nurturing peoples across the cosmere, some as gods, some as lowly "humans", etc. Until one becomes corrupted, likely by Odium, though possibly through the imbalance of intents as various shards are shattered and the remaining shard's intents sway the cosmere. Fast forward a bit to Era 2. We have a corrupted Trell/Avatar who knew the location of some Adonalsium - the solid metal kind. This still exists despite the shattering, in the same way Attium still exists post Harmony, more simply not created. He decides to put himself, his power back together. The biggest threat to that is the shard on Scadial that is already 2 intents, Harmony who is Preservation and Ruin combined. Hence the Set. Why do I think Trellium is Adonalsium? The properties Wax discovers. Shards are related to color, but the "Trellium" spike projects a full spectrum when burnt under a spectroscope, except for the red which is the color of corruption. I believe when Wax states that the test is proof that it is a god metal, I believe he is referring to the excessive red spike. Harmonium probably has something similar due to the dual nature. The reaction between the two metals seen at the end of Chapter 13 could be the Trellium trying to merge, reintegrate the Harmonium, something that would be very inline with Harmony's intent. Now why the 17th shard. The 17th shard has a pretty strong non-intervention policy, and seems to desire the shards to follow suit. I think they want to prevent the re-combining of the shards, given their pursuit of Hoid, who seems to be collecting powers of all the shards. Now they want to help against Trell who might be doing the same. Additionally, the group that recruits Marasi are "offworlders with strange abilities who claim their goal is to protect Scadrial… at any cost." A WOB describes the 17th shard as "interested parties who do not want any planets to get destroyed." Plus, they were name "Deliberately". Edit: Forgot to mention Wayne's Joke and the scale out of 17 instead of 16. Think it might be fore shadowing. Edited October 27, 2022 by Yumiya 1
Frustration Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 Brandon has said that Trell was from a shard. Quote Questioner Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell? Brandon Sanderson Yes. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8554
Yumiya Posted October 27, 2022 Author Posted October 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Brandon has said that Trell was from a shard. Yes he did. He also said this: Quote Brandon Sanderson Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. *silence* Overlord Jebus Sorry, can you say that again? Brandon Sanderson Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. Footnote: The asterisk Brandon is referencing is that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) 1
Frustration Posted October 28, 2022 Posted October 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Yumiya said: Yes he did. He also said this: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Yes Patji is an Avatar of Autonomy, I'm not sure how that proves that Trellium is somehow Adonalsium's shardmetal.
hitkay Posted October 28, 2022 Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) We know from WoB that there are only eight Shards that Trell can be related to: Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Dominion, Devotion. Honor's dead, Cultivation is extremely unlikely, Ruin and Preservation are currently Harmony, Dominion and Devotion are currently the Dor. Which gives us four suspects: Odium, Autonomy, the Dor, and a second manifestation of Harmony ('Discord'). All of these technically fit with the WoB that Trell is not native to Yolen - Odium's current Vessel is a Roshar native, Autonomy manifests as avatars, the Dor originated on Sel, and Ruin and Preservation are both in a new 'form' and have a non-Yolen Vessel. Trell's apparently destructive Intent is in line with Odium, as is the gold coloring of trellium (this would make trellium and raysium one and the same). But it's narratively unlikely because Odium is the main antagonist of SA, Mistborn Era 3 will be written before the second half of SA, and Mistborn Era 3 will prominently feature Trell. Additionally, Trell seems to have been around for a while, and Odium's Vessel recently changed, which would probably have thrown a wrench into the plans. Autonomy is the 'cleanest' answer because there are no real problems with it. Autonomy makes avatars, Autonomy is expanding her influence, there's someone called Trell on one of Autonomy's planets, and Autonomy will play a more prominent role in the upcoming Cosmere. Some of the evidence is a little loose, like the original Trell religion focusing on night and day and Autonomy's planet being tidally locked, or trellium/bavadinium giving Bleeder autonomy from Harmony (could just be the influence of another Shard rather than aligning with Autonomy's Intent), but it fits. There's some juicier stuff as well: the original Trell religion believes the antagonistic deity to be the sun, and Autonomy is invested in a sun, so Autonomy may have had an influence on Scadrial more than a millennium ago, potentially as an avatar. Ruin would have been trapped and Preservation would have been weak so neither could oppose this, and the original ending to Well of Ascension featured multiple mostly unidentified Shards, so previous influence of other Shards on Scadrial isn't necessarily unlikely. Alternatively Autonomy just needed a name and chose Trell due to the sun thing, although Trell isn't the sun deity in Trelagism. Again: it works. The Dor is probably the least popular of the theories. We know it has some basic degree of sentience, but almost certainly not enough to orchestrate the plans that point to Trell. Still, there is some stuff to support the Dor theory: Trell wanting to be worshipped over Harmony fits with the Dominion and Devotion Intents, WoB confirms there's a God Metal that comes from the Dor ('dorium'?), the Dor has no current Vessel and we know from the Cycle that Trell is looking for human 'avatars', and there are some theories connecting Trell and the Set to Sel. The main point of consideration with the Dor theory comes from MBSH, where we see the Ire trying to seize Preservation's power and revering Devotion, which could potentially develop into a plot opposing Harmony and following the Dor. A second manifestation of Harmony is technically two theories: it could be that there's a second Vessel of the Ruin and Preservation powers (potentially Kelsier), or that Sazed is in a Jekyll/Hyde situation. I find this unlikely because we know that Trell literally has a unique God Metal, although the 'reaction' described at the end of the latest chapter might suggest a relation between trellium and harmonium, but it could be that combining the polarized powers of Ruin and Preservation cannot result in one clean Intent, and so a second one has developed (usually dubbed 'Discord'). Hopefully the next couple chapters will weaken or strengthen some of these. Edited October 29, 2022 by hitkay 5
offer Posted October 29, 2022 Posted October 29, 2022 12 hours ago, hitkay said: We know from WoB that there are only eight Shards that Trell can be related to: Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Dominion, Devotion. Honor's dead, Cultivation is extremely unlikely, Ruin and Preservation are currently Harmony, Dominion and Devotion are currently the Dor. Which gives us four suspects: Odium, Autonomy, the Dor, and a second manifestation of Harmony ('Discord'). All of these technically fit with the WoB that Trell is not native to Yolen - Odium's currently Vessel is a Roshar native, Autonomy manifests as avatars, the Dor originated on Sel, and Ruin and Preservation are both in a new 'form' and have a non-Yolen Vessel. Trell's apparently destructive Intent is in line with Odium, as is the gold coloring of trellium (this would make trellium and raysium one and the same). But it's narratively unlikely because Odium is the main antagonist of SA, Mistborn Era 3 will be written before the second half of SA, and Mistborn Era 3 will prominently feature Trell. Additionally, Trell seems to have been around for a while, and Odium's Vessel recently changed, which would probably have thrown a wrench into the plans. Autonomy is the 'cleanest' answer because there are no real problems with it. Autonomy makes avatars, Autonomy is expanding her influence, there's someone called Trell on one of Autonomy's planets, and Autonomy will play a more prominent role in the upcoming Cosmere. Some of the evidence is a little loose, like the original Trell religion focusing on night and day and Autonomy's planet being tidally locked, or trellium/bavadinium giving Bleeder autonomy from Harmony (could just be the influence of another Shard rather than aligning with Autonomy's Intent), but it fits. There's some juicier stuff as well: the original Trell religion believes the antagonistic deity to be the sun, and Autonomy is invested in a sun, so Autonomy may have had an influence on Scadrial more than a millennium ago, potentially as an avatar. Ruin would have been trapped and Preservation would have been weak so neither could oppose this, and the original ending to Well of Ascension featured multiple mostly unidentified Shards, so previous influence of other Shards on Scadrial isn't necessarily unlikely. Alternatively Autonomy just needed a name and chose Trell due to the sun thing, although Trell isn't the sun deity in Trelagism. Again: it works. The Dor is probably the least popular of the theories. We know it has some basic degree of sentience, but almost certainly not enough to orchestrate the plans that point to Trell. Still, there is some stuff to support the Dor theory: Trell wanting to be worshipped over Harmony fits with the Dominion and Devotion Intents, WoB confirms there's a God Metal that comes from the Dor ('dorium'?), the Dor has no current Vessel and we know from the Cycle that Trell is looking for human 'avatars', and there are some theories connecting Trell and the Set to Sel. The main point of consideration with the Dor theory comes from MBSH, where we see the Ire trying to seize Preservation's power and revering Devotion, which could potentially develop into a plot opposing Harmony and following the Dor. A second manifestation of Harmony is technically two theories: it could be that there's a second Vessel of the Ruin and Preservation powers (potentially Kelsier), or that Sazed is in a Jekyll/Hyde situation. I find this unlikely because we know that Trell literally has a unique God Metal, although the 'reaction' described at the end of the latest chapter might suggest a relation between trellium and harmonium, but it could be that combining the polarized powers of Ruin and Preservation cannot result in one clean Intent, and so a second one has developed (usually dubbed 'Discord'). Hopefully the next couple chapters will weaken or strengthen some of these. Another clue that trell is related to autonomy is that not only there is someone on taldain named Trell but some of the names of taldain contain the word Trell (e.g. the lord Mastrell) which means it is a naming convention there. 1
+Child of Hodor Posted November 2, 2022 Posted November 2, 2022 On 10/28/2022 at 3:23 PM, hitkay said: We know from WoB that there are only eight Shards that Trell can be related to: Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Dominion, Devotion. Honor's dead, Cultivation is extremely unlikely, Ruin and Preservation are currently Harmony, Dominion and Devotion are currently the Dor. Which gives us four suspects: Odium, Autonomy, the Dor, and a second manifestation of Harmony ('Discord'). All of these technically fit with the WoB that Trell is not native to Yolen - Odium's current Vessel is a Roshar native, Autonomy manifests as avatars, the Dor originated on Sel, and Ruin and Preservation are both in a new 'form' and have a non-Yolen Vessel. Trell's apparently destructive Intent is in line with Odium, as is the gold coloring of trellium (this would make trellium and raysium one and the same). But it's narratively unlikely because Odium is the main antagonist of SA, Mistborn Era 3 will be written before the second half of SA, and Mistborn Era 3 will prominently feature Trell. Additionally, Trell seems to have been around for a while, and Odium's Vessel recently changed, which would probably have thrown a wrench into the plans. Autonomy is the 'cleanest' answer because there are no real problems with it. Autonomy makes avatars, Autonomy is expanding her influence, there's someone called Trell on one of Autonomy's planets, and Autonomy will play a more prominent role in the upcoming Cosmere. Some of the evidence is a little loose, like the original Trell religion focusing on night and day and Autonomy's planet being tidally locked, or trellium/bavadinium giving Bleeder autonomy from Harmony (could just be the influence of another Shard rather than aligning with Autonomy's Intent), but it fits. There's some juicier stuff as well: the original Trell religion believes the antagonistic deity to be the sun, and Autonomy is invested in a sun, so Autonomy may have had an influence on Scadrial more than a millennium ago, potentially as an avatar. Ruin would have been trapped and Preservation would have been weak so neither could oppose this, and the original ending to Well of Ascension featured multiple mostly unidentified Shards, so previous influence of other Shards on Scadrial isn't necessarily unlikely. Alternatively Autonomy just needed a name and chose Trell due to the sun thing, although Trell isn't the sun deity in Trelagism. Again: it works. On 10/29/2022 at 4:14 AM, offer said: Another clue that trell is related to autonomy is that not only there is someone on taldain named Trell but some of the names of taldain contain the word Trell (e.g. the lord Mastrell) which means it is a naming convention there. When you lay it all out it feels very convincing. Either Brandon is a doing a deep misdirect by planting all these little seeds or he is foreshadowing Autonomy being involved.
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