Absence of non-theist religions in Brandon´s writing

[HiccupGreyjoy]

The only somehow non-theist religion was (pure) Jaskeri from Elantris kinda similar to Daoism, but AFAIK that was pretty much just plot device for Raoden to understand the magic. In Mistborn, all the systems Sazed spoke of were for the lack of beter term "reveration centered" than "practice centered".

To be exact, Cosmere´s gods wouldn´t be problematic(although Ruin and Preservation would stretch it a little), since even Buddhism, Jainism and Daoism don´t deny existence of certain kind of deities, they just don´t concentrate on them.

Then again, most of Fantasy authors aren´t going into that area, either becouse of western convention or becouse fictious non-theist religions might end up be very boring. It´s just that Brandon likes to use a full spectrum usually.

Edited November 8, 2011 by HiccupGreyjoy

[Vine]

I suspect that the reasons for that are mostly the unfamiliarity that most western audiences have with the idea of a non theist religion. I've always had a hard time getting my head around the other forms of religious practice (I wanted to say 'worship' here, but that isn't really accurate). The problem is particularly sharp in the US, where all religious conversation goes on through a Protestant lens.

Though looking at Alloy of Law, I'd say that Pathism gets closest to that form. Unfortunately, in a universe with active deities, Theist forms would tend to be the norm (at least, that's what my western bias tells me:).

[HiccupGreyjoy]

I would say that Pathisdm is really the best out of Brandon´s religions both as element in fiction and in theory - Bravo, Sazed! But really, there should have been some way to merge his system with Kelsier. It would make society more ... Well, harmonical .

[dravis]

When you have actual, visibly present gods, people have a tendency to believe in them and worship them.

Edited November 23, 2011 by dravis

[HiccupGreyjoy]

When you have actual, visibly present gods, people have a tendency to believe in them and worship them.

Except nobody (supposedly) saw Domi/Jaded, Austre, Trell, Terr, etc. Most of described worlds seems to identical with our own, as far as empirical evidence goes. And even if you know there exist some gods you still might try to be something greater thean them (just like our non-theist religions believe).

Edited November 23, 2011 by HiccupGreyjoy

[dravis]

Not only do they have magic, but they even have some recent creation stories. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere there was a religion that worshiped the shards themselves.

[HiccupGreyjoy]

Not only do they have magic,

Which isn´t proof of anything theistic at all.

but they even have some recent creation stories.

Which ones? Scadrial has one and Roshar has one specific that however isn´t very "recent".

[dravis]

Which isn´t proof of anything theistic at all.

Which ones? Scadrial has one and Roshar has one specific that however isn´t very "recent".

If you think the existence of magic doesn't affect religion and belief, then that alone makes it useless to discuss this with you. As for creation, there is one in the third Mistborn book, and the "God" even writes a book about it. Then, if you look closely, anyone who worships a "God" in Mistborn really worships the power from the shard, which isn't an actual entity, since it follows the will of whomever wields it. So that could be considered non-theist in itself.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Are you offended that you don't find a lot of the religion you want? Do you think it is misleading or wrong for it to not be explicit in his fictional universe where you only see the smallest portion in each book?

That'll be my last contribution to this thread. I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

Edited November 24, 2011 by dravis

[Ari]

If you think the existence of magic doesn't affect religion and belief, then that alone makes it useless to discuss this with you. As for creation, there is one in the third Mistborn book, and the "God" even writes a book about it. Then, if you look closely, anyone who worships a "God" in Mistborn really worships the power from the shard, which isn't an actual entity, since it follows the will of whomever wields it. So that could be considered non-theist in itself.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Are you offended that you don't find a lot of the religion you want? Do you think it is misleading or wrong for it to not be explicit in his fictional universe where you only see the smallest portion in each book?

That'll be my last contribution to this thread. I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

Given that the existence of science in our own world seems to have little overall effect on religion, (some religions try to incorporate it, some actively oppose it, and others tend to just kind of try to ignore it, or at least claim that religion and science answer different questions) I'd expect that magic wouldn't really have as large effect as you think it would- those inclined to wholly religious explanations would consider magic the power of God, and those not so inclined might view it in a more scientific way.

And if by Mistborn, you mean Alloy of Law, you appear to be pretty much correct, with the possible exception of Trell. If you mean the original trilogy, the only religion that had anything to do with Ruin or Preservation was the Terris one.

[HiccupGreyjoy]

Given that the existence of science in our own world seems to have little overall effect on religion, (some religions try to incorporate it, some actively oppose it, and others tend to just kind of try to ignore it, or at least claim that religion and science answer different questions) I'd expect that magic wouldn't really have as large effect as you think it would- those inclined to wholly religious explanations would consider magic the power of God, and those not so inclined might view it in a more scientific way.

Not to mention Derethi from Elantris and Austrists from Warbreaker tend to view magic as abomination (at least oficially), pretty much as real world abrahamical religions.

And if by Mistborn, you mean Alloy of Law, you appear to be pretty much correct, with the possible exception of Trell. If you mean the original trilogy, the only religion that had anything to do with Ruin or Preservation was the Terris one.

Also, we have there Survivorism and Sliverism, neither of them interested in Sazed, not sure how much they have incorporated the Shard model into their theologies.

Edited December 1, 2011 by HiccupGreyjoy

[Ari]

Both are interested in a god, although yes, in those cases the god may not necessarily be Sazed.

[HiccupGreyjoy]

Both are interested in a god, although yes, in those cases the god may not necessarily be Sazed.

Well, Wayne made one remark about "God-beyond", suggesting there is common recognition of "Creator" which might have exist even during reign of TLR (he was supposedly venerated as part of Absolute but this wasn´t clearly explained).

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Well, Wayne made one remark about "God-beyond", suggesting there is common recognition of "Creator" which might have exist even during reign of TLR (he was supposedly venerated as part of Absolute but this wasn´t clearly explained).

Well, it suggests that Wayne believes in some God he does not call Sliver or Survivor. I;m not sure we ever learned his religion at all, let alone whether his views are typical (since it is Wayne, I would bet they are not).

As for the theist-ness of assorted religions, the following ones come directly from worshiping magic and its effects:

* Worship of Elantrians¹

* Worship of the Returned

* Worship of The Lord Ruler

Then, there are religions which directly venerate their Shard, and seem to have been guided by said Shard:

* The original Terris religion

* The Path

* Worship of the Almighty on Roshar

All of those are shaped by things which have not been proven to be acting on Earth. Looking at religions other than those six seems to have a pretty good mix of theistic and non-theistic concepts floating around: Survivorism, the Idrian religion, and Shu-Korath/Dereth are very Christian in appearance, while Stone Shamanism² appears to be more of a "venerate spirits and uphold tabboos" kind of a practice. And religions Sazed mentions are, if anything, mostly non-theistic, full of worshipping plants or art, with the main exception being the vaguely Zorostrian Tregalism.

Brandon Sanderson's worlds do have the theological motif of all having a way for a human to, in some sense "become a god," but in terms of people's beliefs, the range seems much wider to me that you appear to view it.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

¹: I got the impression that Elantrians themselves had a fairly non-theistic religious appreciation of the Dor, but that might have been in part because our main source of information on them was a practitioner of Jesker. Kolo?

²: Wait, that's from a world with observable elemental spirits. Do I need to move this to the "products of magic" set?

[Ironeyes]

Except nobody (supposedly) saw Domi/Jaded, Austre, Trell, Terr, etc. Most of described worlds seems to identical with our own, as far as empirical evidence goes. And even if you know there exist some gods you still might try to be something greater than them (just like our non-theist religions believe).

I'm fairly sure that Austre is Endowment (Check out my theory here). Siri does say that Austre is the one that chooses who Returns, and Lightsong remembers a voice offering him the choice to Return. Brandon said somewhere (correct me if I'm wrong) that Returned's deific Breaths have something major to do with Endowment. So, by correlation, Austre, the Iridescent Tones, and Endowment become different names for the same thing. And Lightsong remembers having seen/heard that being.

Does that even make sense?

Edited for clarity and to add the link

Edited January 8, 2012 by Ironeyes

[spacemonkey]

There are a few nontheistic religions. Jesker, as described by Galladon, for example.