Extra Bondsmith ability?

[Arsteel]

So, the Order of Bondsmiths have access to the Surges Tension (which they share with the Stonewards) and Adhesion (shared with the Windrunners. And yet, they have a unique ability to manipulate Connection which no other order possesses. It does not seem to have its source in either of the two aforementioned Bondsmith Surges, as neither of the other Orders which have those Surges have this extra ability.

It is a common theme in some cosmere magic systems that two parts together create not just the sum of the two parts but an additional effect, as Kriss mentions in her essay on Compounding. However, this additional effect wouldn't yet seem to be present in any other Radiant order, and so I doubt this theory as well.

It would however make sense if this extra power is granted by the fact that the three Bondsmith spren are exceptionally powerful, so it could be assumed that this additional ability was granted through them. It makes sense the the additional power is that of Connection: although said power is generally unrelated to the three greater spren (I believe, but there may be logic I didn't think of for this), Connection is certainly of the Bondsmiths.

What are your opinions on this reasoning?

If you agree with it, then how do you think the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher and the Sibling are able to grant this ability?

How is the Nightwatcher, being only of Cultivation, able to grant this kind of bond/ability to a Knight Radiant? (We know because of Lift that Cultivation can force her way into Radiant bonds, but it seems she only started this recently, so how could the Nightwatcher bond a Bondsmith?)

If you disagree, then where do you think this Connection ability comes from?

 

[therunner he/him]

This blending of two powers is called resonance, and all Radiant orders actually do have Resonance, like Twinborn.
For Windrunners it is strength of squires

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Ray745

You have stated that each Knights Radiant Order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their Surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the Surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how Twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

General Reddit 2016 (Oct. 4, 2016)

For Lightweavers it is the memory it seems

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Wetlander

In addition to the two abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a third blended ability, the interaction of its two given Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically as phrased there, but each Order has quirks that are unique to it. They are magical quirks, but it's not necessarily a blend of the powers.

Wetlander

So Shallan's Memories is kind of a...

Brandon Sanderson

Is associated with her Order, yes.

Wetlander

It's not just because she had that wonderful ability, and Pattern came along and went, "Oh, I like this one!"

Brandon Sanderson

No that is not necessarily what attracted Pattern.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

For the rest, we don't know.
The Bondsmith ability to manipulate Connections is as far as we know example of Spiritual Adhesion, so it is more Spiritual expression of the surge of Adhesion, connecting not physical objects but Spiritual selves.

[Arsteel]

Thank you, this is very helpful.

Then the Bondsmith resonance is the ability to use not only Physical but also Spiritual Adhesion, I guess, as otherwise the Windrunners would also have the Connection ability, seeing as they also have Adhesion.

This makes sense, except that the Bondsmith resonance seems much more powerful than those of the other orders. So maybe it isn't just the resinance that grants the Spiritual Adhesion, but a mix of that and the bond with a Godspren?

[+Harrycrapper]

5 minutes ago, Arsteel said:

This makes sense, except that the Bondsmith resonance seems much more powerful than those of the other orders. So maybe it isn't just the resinance that grants the Spiritual Adhesion, but a mix of that and the bond with a Godspren?

Ishar seems to have the same capabilities while wielding his Honorblade, so the Godspren doesn't seem to be behind that aspect of a Bondsmith's powers. 

[Arsteel]

True, but his Honorblade may be stronger in some way than the others, because otherwise I don't see how a Godspren is needed for other Bondsmiths to imitate the Honorblade's power.

[+Harrycrapper]

4 hours ago, Arsteel said:

True, but his Honorblade may be stronger in some way than the others, because otherwise I don't see how a Godspren is needed for other Bondsmiths to imitate the Honorblade's power.

It's not. The concept of a Bondsmith predates the Nahel Bond. As far as I can tell, the Godspren aspect most likely correlates to a Radiant Bondsmith's ability to provide Investiture and which flavor that Investiture is. I think it's more likely that the Godspren are the gatekeepers of the Bondsmith powerset because of how dangerous they are rather than the Godspren being the reason why they are dangerous. 

[Arsteel]

I know that the Honorblades predate Spren Nahel bonds, I just wondered why, in imitating the Bondsmith Honorblade, a Godspren was necessary for the bond instead of some other spren. Your reasoning makes sense, especially with the flavours of Investiture.

However this still doesn't explain why the Bondsmith resonance ability is blatantly and objectively so much more powerful than those of the other Orders. Any ideas? Maybe because Bondsmithing also predates the Heralds and the Radiants and is just an adaption of this previous ability by Honor?

[Returned he/him]

17 hours ago, Arsteel said:

However this still doesn't explain why the Bondsmith resonance ability is blatantly and objectively so much more powerful than those of the other Orders. Any ideas? Maybe because Bondsmithing also predates the Heralds and the Radiants and is just an adaption of this previous ability by Honor?

Connection is a very powerful and flexible power to be able to manipulate in the Cosmere and underlies a good deal of how magical abilities work there. Even without resonances it would likely still seem powerful compared to other abilities-- "the concept of things being connected in fundamental ways" has implications for things like the three realms in ways which "fiddling with gravity" isn't going to be able to match.

I also think that Bondsmiths' power is seen operating at a higher level other Surges, giving us more on-screen examples of how it works in especially dramatic ways than other Surges (so far). And it's also worth bearing in mind that the orders of Radiants, along with the powers they can access and how those powers manifest, were designed and organized by Ishar (who was himself a Bondsmith). It's possible that he planned for resonances and made sure that the most powerful would be accessible to the fewest people, while more common ones would be less potent.

[Arsteel]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Connection is a very powerful and flexible power to be able to manipulate in the Cosmere and underlies a good deal of how magical abilities work there. Even without resonances it would likely still seem powerful compared to other abilities-- "the concept of things being connected in fundamental ways" has implications for things like the three realms in ways which "fiddling with gravity" isn't going to be able to match.

I also think that Bondsmiths' power is seen operating at a higher level other Surges, giving us more on-screen examples of how it works in especially dramatic ways than other Surges (so far). And it's also worth bearing in mind that the orders of Radiants, along with the powers they can access and how those powers manifest, were designed and organized by Ishar (who was himself a Bondsmith). It's possible that he planned for resonances and made sure that the most powerful would be accessible to the fewest people, while more common ones would be less potent.

Yes, I agree with all of this. It makes more sense to think of it from Ishar's perspective as he organized/planned the Surges with Honors help. 

I had partly forgotten that Ishar was so involved and therefore had assumed that the Surges would have been created as equally powerful (seems like a thing Honor would do, with oaths and fairness and honor and binding rules and the like). With Ishar back in the picture, I can understand the power balance of each Surge/Resonance being less important as compared to the abilities being under control.

[Arsteel]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Connection is a very powerful and flexible power to be able to manipulate in the Cosmere and underlies a good deal of how magical abilities work there. Even without resonances it would likely still seem powerful compared to other abilities-- "the concept of things being connected in fundamental ways" has implications for things like the three realms in ways which "fiddling with gravity" isn't going to be able to match.

-emphasis mine-

Ok, but were does the Connection ability cone from in the first place if not from the resonance? I've been treating the power of Connection manipulation as the Bondsmith resonance itself, as it doesn't seem to have it's origin in either Surge. So how, as you say, would it be present without resonance?

[Yumiya]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:48 PM, therunner said:

For Lightweavers it is the memory it seems

Not just memory, but the ability to see things differently and change what they see.

 

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Questioner

In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, there's a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That's, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you'll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that... And there is a magical element to that, as well. There's both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

[Yumiya]

4 hours ago, Returned said:

along with the powers they can access and how those powers manifest, were designed and organized by Ishar (who was himself a Bondsmith).

That is probably not true. See this wob:
 

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Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

[Returned he/him]

23 hours ago, Arsteel said:

Ok, but were does the Connection ability cone from in the first place if not from the resonance? I've been treating the power of Connection manipulation as the Bondsmith resonance itself, as it doesn't seem to have it's origin in either Surge. So how, as you say, would it be present without resonance?

It's one of the fundamental, magic-relevant attributes in the Cosmere while also being a Surge of Roshar. For example, duralumin stores Connection for a Feruchemist without any need for a resonance. As a Surge of Roshar it can be manipulated by a Surgebinder, alone or as part of a resonant ability. Both Windrunners and Skybreakers can use the Surge of Gravitation for a basic lashing (Gravitation alone). Windrunners also have a resonance with Adhesion that allows them to perform a reverse lashing, which Skybreakers cannot do because they lack access to Adhesion. Connection is its own thing and can be used in its own ways, and also is part of resonances which allow for still other abilities.

 

21 hours ago, Yumiya said:

That is probably not true. See this wob:

That's a good find on the WoB. I based my comment on these two epigraphs from Words of Radiance, but I think you're right to suggest that I overinterpreted them:

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"They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond's placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors." (WoR, Chapter 35, epigraph)

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"But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." (WoR, Chapter 42, epigraph)

Ishar was involved in the design of the Radiant Orders and the rules which governed them for sure (at least in ensuring that those rules existed). The only suggestion that access to Surges might have been similarly influenced by Ishar is the "rulings in the nature of each bond's placement" bit, but that could very easily apply to other things (like which spren are associated with which Order/Surges).

I think there is some argument to be made about limiting Radiants to two surges, as we know that at least Yelig-nar possesses all ten. But this limitation, too, could be attributed to other things. Most notably the spren who first started bonding humans were imitating what they had seen with the Heralds and Honorblades, and we know the Honorblades granted two Surges apiece. I still suspect that there was some Bondsmith action in creating and formalizing the Orders and the Surges they provide, but that is speculative and even if true there isn't much reason to think that Ishar did (or even could) mix and match the Surges as he pleased.

 

On a site-specific note, members of this board tend to frown on double-posting and prefer single, larger posts even when covering different topics or replies to multiple posts. I personally don't mind it, but you'll eventually run into complaints.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Returned

[Arsteel]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

It's one of the fundamental, magic-relevant attributes in the Cosmere while also being a Surge of Roshar. For example, duralumin stores Connection for a Feruchemist without any need for a resonance. As a Surge of Roshar it can be manipulated by a Surgebinder, alone or as part of a resonant ability. Both Windrunners and Skybreakers can use the Surge of Gravitation for a basic lashing (Gravitation alone). Windrunners also have a resonance with Adhesion that allows them to perform a reverse lashing, which Skybreakers cannot do because they lack access to Adhesion. Connection is its own thing and can be used in its own ways, and also is part of resonances which allow for still other abilities.

 

That's a good find on the WoB. I based my comment on these two epigraphs from Words of Radiance, but I think you're right to suggest that I overinterpreted them:

Ishar was involved in the design of the Radiant Orders and the rules which governed them for sure (at least in ensuring that those rules existed). The only suggestion that access to Surges might have been similarly influenced by Ishar is the "rulings in the nature of each bond's placement" bit, but that could very easily apply to other things (like which spren are associated with which Order/Surges).

I think there is some argument to be made about limiting Radiants to two surges, as we know that at least Yelig-nar possesses all ten. But this limitation, too, could be attributed to other things. Most notably the spren who first started bonding humans were imitating what they had seen with the Heralds and Honorblades, and we know the Honorblades granted two Surges apiece. I still suspect that there was some Bondsmith action in creating and formalizing the Orders and the Surges they provide, but that is speculative and even if true there isn't much reason to think that Ishar did (or even could) mix and match the Surges as he pleased.

 

On a site-specific note, members of this board tend to frown on double-posting and prefer single, larger posts even when covering different topics or replies to multiple posts. I personally don't mind it, but you'll eventually run into complaints.

Yes, but Conection manipulation isn't one of the ten Surges. If it were, either the Stonewards or the Windrunners would have access to it too, as each of the aforementioned orders share a Surge with the Bondsmiths. This is the only reason I am implying that it is the resonance.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Arsteel said:

Yes, but Conection manipulation isn't one of the ten Surges. If it were, either the Stonewards or the Windrunners would have access to it too, as each of the aforementioned orders share a Surge with the Bondsmiths. This is the only reason I am implying that it is the resonance.

Fair. But Adhesion isn't just sticking two objects together; it also deals with abstractions like binding through an oath. That's why it's referred to as "Honor's truest Surge". I'm not sure we really know much about what "raw" Connection can do through the Adhesion Surge, and Connection itself has always been one of the most fuzzily (and expansively) defined Cosmere properties as it's so abstract. Connection seems to be one of the subtlest of the Cosmere forces, along with Fortune and Identity.

Anyways, using a Surge at all is manipulating it; a basic lashing is manipulating the Gravitation Surge, not a distinct Surge of "Manipulating Gravitation". It is possible, for example, that many applications using Adhesion alone have effects that are hard to observe, like an increased or decreased spiritual Connection between people. Contrast with an illusion produced through Illumination, or a lashing achieved via Gravitation. Those are things you will definitely see happen in a pretty concrete way.

Nevertheless I would wager that Windrunners can access more abstract features of Adhesion (those we associate with Connection). The effect may not be explicit or dramatic by itself (compare with an Aluminum Gnat on Scadrial), may require practice to develop to any impressive degree (compare with Shallan being bad at Soulcasting for quite some time despite progress with Illumination), may be gated in some way (similar to how Skybreakers can't access Division until they've progressed far enough in their oaths), and any number of possible other differences. Stonewards don't have access to Adhesion, so we can discount them from this.

I will (tentatively) argue that when Kaladin parts a Highstorm in Oathbringer he's using Connection (via some sort of spiritual Adhesion) to do it-- it is a very different effect from any of the lashings. Bridge Four is a remarkably tight-knit group made of isolated dregs. Kaladin is a great leader, but might he have unconsciously tapped some spiritual Adhesion to accomplish that amazing feat? It would not be unlike his amazing ability with the spear and connection to the wind, which we know is mediated to some degree by his bond with Syl. Might those be not just mundane, poetic connections, but Connections?

Another difficulty in teasing out applications of Connection, alone, as an aspect of a Surge is that things are working differently during Dalinar's time than previously. It's remarked on several times that Dalinar does things with his Surgebinding which were inconceivable before, but we don't have any details about what is driving those differences or how they might impact other things. Dalinar can open a perpendicularity, which no previous Bondsmith was known to be able to do (whether or not they couldn't, or just didn't know how, who knows?). We see Ishar doing some really amazing, powerful things with the same Surges Dalinar can access, but Dalinar doesn't know how to do them (though it's also possible those abilities are specific to Ishar in some way, and/or could be additional resonant abilities). As with Kaladin and the storm, we don't know how these were achieved and they shocked observers, some of whom are very knowledgeable.

So, in summary, Adhesion may well have properties the POV characters in the books don't know about and can't easily observe (making them less obvious than Dalinar's most dramatic feats), characters with access to Adhesion may lack the necessary knowledge and skill to make use of those aspects of the Surge anyways, and we know for a fact that the capabilities of modern Radiants are different from what used to be in ways which may or may not relate to the Surges themselves.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Returned

[Arsteel]

On 24/08/2022 at 8:07 PM, Returned said:

Nevertheless I would wager that Windrunners can access more abstract features of Adhesion (those we associate with Connection). The effect may not be explicit or dramatic by itself (compare with an Aluminum Gnat on Scadrial), may require practice to develop to any impressive degree (compare with Shallan being bad at Soulcasting for quite some time despite progress with Illumination), may be gated in some way (similar to how Skybreakers can't access Division until they've progressed far enough in their oaths), and any number of possible other differences. Stonewards don't have access to Adhesion, so we can discount them from this.

This is plausible, yes. Good point. I think however even if Windrunners pass this gate/train enough, their Spiritual Adhesion would never be as powerful as that of a Bondsmith, or we would've heard of it by now.

On 24/08/2022 at 8:07 PM, Returned said:

I will (tentatively) argue that when Kaladin parts a Highstorm in Oathbringer he's using Connection (via some sort of spiritual Adhesion) to do it-- it is a very different effect from any of the lashings. Bridge Four is a remarkably tight-knit group made of isolated dregs. Kaladin is a great leader, but might he have unconsciously tapped some spiritual Adhesion to accomplish that amazing feat? It would not be unlike his amazing ability with the spear and connection to the wind, which we know is mediated to some degree by his bond with Syl. Might those be not just mundane, poetic connections, but Connections?

The Highstorm I can understand, but I believe that Bridge four's familiarity is just boring old poetry.

[Returned he/him]

8 hours ago, Arsteel said:

This is plausible, yes. Good point. I think however even if Windrunners pass this gate/train enough, their Spiritual Adhesion would never be as powerful as that of a Bondsmith, or we would've heard of it by now.

Eh, maybe. I personally think that you're right and that Bondsmiths are legitimately more powerful for a variety of reasons (many of the specifics of which are unknown to us for now), and Dalinar especially so. Ishar and Melishi have demonstrated incredible feats too, even without the exceptional circumstances Dalinar is in. And Dalinar can do things which blur the lines between Surges anyways (he can allow people to enter and exit Shadesmar through a perpendicularity, which is properly a Transportation effect). And the few resonant abilities we know of for sure seem pretty discrete and limited: eidetic memory for Lightweavers (or at least Shallan), and more and stronger squires for Windrunners (or at least Kaladin). Dalinar's powers don't seem to fit neatly into one description like that.

But we've heard very, very little about what the Knight Radiant Orders were capable of, and even if we had we know for certain that things are different in Kaladin's time, so I'm not sure that's a great guide. We do know that practical effects of binding a Surge can vary (Dalinar is told by the Stormfather that Tension will "serve [him] differently" than it would a Stoneward, for example, and a Fused manipulating Gravitation can't change direction as quickly, nor move as fast, as a Windrunner), so there is a strong likelihood of that element there-- the same Surge doesn't necessarily work the same way for everyone, particularly between groups. Maybe Windrunners really don't have the same options with pure Adhesion even though it's the same Surge for them as for Bondsmiths.

I'm not surprised to find Bondsmiths to be particularly powerful among Surgebinders and Knight Radiant Orders, I believe that a major part of that additional power comes from their capacity with spiritual Adhesion, and that spiritual Adhesion is itself very flexible and expansive in its applications (especially on Roshar). Similarly, any resonance (or similar) which involves that expansive and flexible spiritual Adhesion will be similarly flexible and expansive as a result. And finally it's very strongly implied that Dalinar has powers no other Bondsmith has commanded in the past, which seems unlikely to be "just" the resonance with Tension (otherwise previous Bondsmiths would have been able to do it too). But even the "normal" Bondsmith powers are vast and explicitly stated by the Stormfather to be greater than those of other Radiants:

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"Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle." (Oathbringer, page 638)

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8 hours ago, Arsteel said:

The Highstorm I can understand, but I believe that Bridge four's familiarity is just boring old poetry.

They were just examples of things which might conceivably be covered by spiritual Adhesion but not be obviously so to the characters or the reader, not strong suggestions of things that are definitely magical via Adhesion.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Returned

[Arsteel]

You're right, it's probably just that Bondsmiths are flat out more powerful than other orders. Good point about how different orders use the same surge differently, that would explain the "spiritual adhesion".