Syl becomes human?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

So, he's about done. KoW will be he last major appearance.

Yeah. Not having many viewpoints doesn't mean he won't have any narrative importance ever. Killing Kaladin off would make his entire mental health arc in RoW useless.

[Bort he/him]

The whole "self sacrifice for the greater good" theme is one that keeps cropping up in Brandon's books/series. It happens in Warbreaker with Lightsong, Mistborn with Vin, Elend, even Sazed and Kelsier. In Elantris you've got the guards who become hoed, and of course, Hrathen.

I could absolutely see Kaladin being one of these sacrifices. It would totally fit with the character. But, that said, I don't want to see it happen. I want the Windrunner 5th Ideal to be "I accept that my life is as important as those I protect," and for Kaladin to realise that self sacrifice isn't necessarily the best way to protect or lead.

I also agree with the comments that this would be a reversal of Kaladin's story arc. It would feel like such a let down for him to spend 4 books fighting for a reason to live beyond just protecting others, for him to give up his life, just to protect others, in book 5.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Yeah. Not having many viewpoints doesn't mean he won't have any narrative importance ever. Killing Kaladin off would make his entire mental health arc in RoW useless.

Let's be real that was only there so Kal could be spiderman in RoW while everyone else was out fighting

[Bort he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Let's be real that was only there so Kal could be spiderman in RoW while everyone else was out fighting

I have to disagree with you on this one. Kaladin's mental health issues have been right there for all to see since WoK. It was about time they finally came out into the open.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Let's be real that was only there so Kal could be spiderman in RoW while everyone else was out fighting

If that was true, then when Dalinar told Kaladin that he had been wrong to dismiss him from duty, Kaladin would have gone "Storms yes you were! I'm gonna grab my spear and get back out onto that battlefield before Sigzil makes the Windrunners too bureaucratic!". Kaladin's arc after KoW will probably involve less stabby-stabby and more stichy-stichy. He's going to be a surgeon and a mental health expert, not a battlefield commander.

[Frustration]

Just now, Bort said:

I have to disagree with you on this one. Kaladin's mental health issues have been right there for all to see since WoK. It was about time they finally came out into the open.

And why did they come out the way they did?

Why did Dalinar releive him of active duty?

That was not a character decision, that was a contious choice by Brandon to forward the plot

Just now, Nameless said:

If that was true, then when Dalinar told Kaladin that he had been wrong to dismiss him from duty, Kaladin would have gone "Storms yes you were! I'm gonna grab my spear and get back out onto that battlefield before Sigzil makes the Windrunners too bureaucratic!". Kaladin's arc after KoW will probably involve less stabby-stabby and more stichy-stichy. He's going to be a surgeon and a mental health expert, not a battlefield commander.

So let's say your right how does this play out.

SA 5 has him travel to Shinovar and try and fix Ishar, but he can't because Spiritual madness isn't something you fix a normal way.

SA 6 comes around and over the timeskip Kal has set up his surgeon shop.

SA 7 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 8 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 9 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 10 we cut back to Kal doing surgery.

That's not a good ending, that's not exciting, that's a let down, Is Jasnah a character you really want to see in the first five? Wondering how her story in those books will go?

After SA 5 Kal is done, everything after that will be Cameo appearances.

[Bort he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

And why did they come out the way they did?

Why did Dalinar releive him of active duty?

That was not a character decision, that was a contious choice by Brandon to forward the plot

Because Kaladin was trying to fight through his pain and depression, without getting any support, and it was breaking him. Especially seeing what friends could do when they turn against you.

And when you've got a soldier that close to breaking, with no intention of getting help, as a Commander like Dalinar, you have only two options. The first, let him continue fighting, is a terrible idea because it will get people killed. The second, relieve him of duty and force him to confront his problems is the only way someone like this is going to get the help they really need.

The choices made were perfectly reasonable given the characters involved, their personal beliefs, and their current states of mind.

As for the rest of your post, how would cameos from Kaladin in the back half be any different from cameos from Jasnah, or Lift or Renarin in the front five? I somehow doubt it'll all be sitting talking about mental health, but so what if it is? In Avengers: Endgame, did you have a problem with Captain America running a support group?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And why did they come out the way they did?

Why did Dalinar releive him of active duty?

That was not a character decision, that was a contious choice by Brandon to forward the plot

Everything is a choice by Brandon to continue the plot. This one made sense and has been set up since book one. Brandon pulled this off well, in my opinion. Kaladin's depression continued to be a problem even during the occupation.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So let's say your right how does this play out.

SA 5 has him travel to Shinovar and try and fix Ishar, but he can't because Spiritual madness isn't something you fix a normal way.

SA 6 comes around and over the timeskip Kal has set up his surgeon shop.

SA 7 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 8 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 9 we cut back to Kal doing surgery

SA 10 we cut back to Kal doing surgery.

That's not a good ending, that's not exciting, that's a let down, Is Jasnah a character you really want to see in the first five? Wondering how her story in those books will go?

After SA 5 Kal is done, everything after that will be Cameo appearances.

Let's say you're right.

SA 5 has Kaladin travel to Shinovar to try and fix Ishar, but he can't because Spiritual madness isn't something you fix in a normal way. He dies a failure. Lirin is sad, but knows that Kaladin got himself into this by fighting. Everyone is shocked that "Kaladin Stormblessed" died. Syl is really sad. All the readers are really sad. The state of current mental health treatment remains the same, as no one with authority cares about it.

SA 6 comes around and we find that Syl has chosen a new radiant.

SA 7, 8, 9, and 10 come around and Kaladin has been turned into a legendary figure. A valiant hero who died fighting the shellheads. Helping to support and justify the system of hatred and fear that is the uneasy truce between singer and humankind. Bridge four no longer exists, almost all of its members having died in the war. The few remaining feel sad that Kaladin died.

That's not a good ending. That's an awful ending and a let down.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Bort said:

Because Kaladin was trying to fight through his pain and depression, without getting any support, and it was breaking him. Especially seeing what friends could do when they turn against you.

And when you've got a soldier that close to breaking, with no intention of getting help, as a Commander like Dalinar, you have only two options. The first, let him continue fighting, is a terrible idea because it will get people killed. The second, relieve him of duty and force him to confront his problems is the only way someone like this is going to get the help they really need.

The choices made were perfectly reasonable given the characters involved, their personal beliefs, and their current states of mind.

But that's not why they were made.

9 minutes ago, Bort said:

As for the rest of your post, how would cameos from Kaladin in the back half be any different from cameos from Jasnah, or Lift or Renarin in the front five? I somehow doubt it'll all be sitting talking about mental health, but so what if it is? In Avengers: Endgame, did you have a problem with Captain America running a support group?

Didn't watch Endgame

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Everything is a choice by Brandon to continue the plot. This one made sense and has been set up since book one. Brandon pulled this off well, in my opinion. Kaladin's depression continued to be a problem even during the occupation.

And in mine it was the least realistic depiction of depression so far, WoK did an excelent job but it's been downhill from there.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Let's say you're right.

SA 5 has Kaladin travel to Shinovar to try and fix Ishar, but he can't because Spiritual madness isn't something you fix in a normal way. He dies a failure. Lirin is sad, but knows that Kaladin got himself into this by fighting. Everyone is shocked that "Kaladin Stormblessed" died. Syl is really sad. All the readers are really sad. The state of current mental health treatment remains the same, as no one with authority cares about it.

SA 6 comes around and we find that Syl has chosen a new radiant.

SA 7, 8, 9, and 10 come around and Kaladin has been turned into a legendary figure. A valiant hero who died fighting the shellheads. Helping to support and justify the system of hatred and fear that is the uneasy truce between singer and humankind. Bridge four no longer exists, almost all of its members having died in the war. The few remaining feel sad that Kaladin died.

That's not a good ending. That's an awful ending and a let down.

No that is an excelent ending, because it adds stakes, these characters feel immortal, the taking of Urithiru had no impact because it didn't matter, no one was in danger, Dalinar's chances of winning were still the same.

If Kal dies that mean other characters like Dalinar and Shallan can die to, it would make the contset of Champions actually mean something, instead of the Dalinar curbstomp it's looking to be.

[Bort he/him]

It certainly looked like that's why the choices were made the way they were to my eyes.

And as for Kaladin's depression not looking real in your eyes, that's just your eyes. I recognised a lot of what Kaladin was feeling and going through as stuff I've felt.

And while the ending would "add stakes," as you put it, it would also take a massive dump on all of Kaladin's personal development. If you absolutely have to have someone killed off, make it Dalinar.

Also, perhaps you'd care to offer more of an opinion than "You're wrong!" For example, why do you think the choices were made the way they were? Why do you think the depiction of depression in RoW is worse than WoK. This is, after all, how a discussion works.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Bort

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No that is an excelent ending, because it adds stakes, these characters feel immortal, the taking of Urithiru had no impact because it didn't matter, no one was in danger, Dalinar's chances of winning were still the same.

If Kal dies that mean other characters like Dalinar and Shallan can die to, it would make the contset of Champions actually mean something, instead of the Dalinar curbstomp it's looking to be.

Why not have another character die to do this though? A Dalinar death would make so much more sense. What exactly would his arc be after KoW? Kaladin has his mental health thing, as well as potentially becoming a trainer for new Radiants. even an Adolin death would make more sense that killing Kaladin off. Adolin has mostly fulfilled his arc. What little is left for him to do, figuring out how to help deadeyes, can be completed in KoW via the release of Ba-Ado-Misram. A heroic sacrifice holding off the enemy while Shallan releases Ba-Ado-Mishram makes much more sense than Kaladin dying heroically. Killing Kaladin would be like 

WoT spoilers:

Spoiler

killing Lan off. so much of Kaladin and Lan's arcs are about not getting themselves killed, that killing them would be unsatisfying.

 

[Anomander Rake he/him]

Journey before destination homies, Kal's development and growth absolutely still means something even if he passes.  That aside, while I don't think he will die in SA5, I don't at all think it's out of the picture.  It would be a very humbling moment appropriate for a book like this, I think his death would feel very Ned Stark with the unexpected shock of it, "Theres just no way he'll actually go through with it and kill X, right!?", and like GRRM I know Brando would do that scene a wealth of justice.

Also, it feels unfair to say that certain characters cannot or will not die because they struggle with depression, come from a marginalized group, etc, and almost pandering to a degree.  I'm not saying it would be pandering if Kal and others all survive, but to purposefully treat them differently? bleh.  And yes I recognize that it is not the likely conclusion given Kal's arc thus far, and will likely not happen, but I support the story feeling as genuine as possible, and should Kal have to die to achieve that, so be it.

[Bort he/him]

Having Kaladin's death relegated to a Ned Stark/Hoban Washburne shock factor moment would be terrible, and really shoddy writing.

And no-one was saying Kaladin cannot die, only that it would be a massive shame for him to work through all that depression, finally find a reason to continue living for himself, rather than others, only to sacrifice himself to protect others, thus never realising that he could actually be happy too. While utterly in character for Kaladin, it would paint a massive "What's the point?" on his entire character arc, which would in itself, be a kick in the teeth for those of us with depression. Those of us who do struggle with the question, "What's the point?"

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

It certainly looked like that's why the choices were made the way they were to my eyes.

No choice is made simply because of character, otherwise Kal would have left the Shattered plains after WoK, but because that would take him out of the plot for WoR he stayed.

Character decisions are used to have the choice make sense in world, contextualize it, but is almost never the reason behind it.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

And as for Kaladin's depression not looking real in your eyes, that's just your eyes. I recognised a lot of what Kaladin was feeling and going through as stuff I've felt.

I can say the same, but it was done better in WoK, Brandon had Kal's deppresion written in RoW already done, but decided to scale back on it after alpha reads, and it shows.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

And while the ending would "add stakes," as you put it, it would also take a massive dump on all of Kaladin's personal development. If you absolutely have to have someone killed off, make it Dalinar.

That works to, but Kaladin serves better because he has more reader attachment, or alternatively kill Syl and render Kal powerless, that would work as well.

And it pushes past the thought that a character can only die once their arc is complete, death should leave things incomplete, that's how death works in real life, on occasion someone has done everything they wanted, but that's rarely the case.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

Also, perhaps you'd care to offer more of an opinion than "You're wrong!" For example, why do you think the choices were made the way they were? Why do you think the depiction of depression in RoW is worse than WoK. This is, after all, how a discussion works.

Because in WoK it showed Kal's mental state, we got to watch things happen to him.

In RoW we are told what happened, we know Kaladin had nightmares, but we don't know anything beyond that, we are told Kal is tired, but we don't feel that. Kal's reaction to Teft dying felt like melodrama because we didn't see Kal taking care of him.

49 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why not have another character die to do this though? A Dalinar death would make so much more sense. What exactly would his arc be after KoW?

As stated above death should leave things unfulfilled.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

 Kaladin has his mental health thing, as well as potentially becoming a trainer for new Radiants.

Kaladin has about as much potential as Dalinar

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

even an Adolin death would make more sense that killing Kaladin off. Adolin has mostly fulfilled his arc. What little is left for him to do, figuring out how to help deadeyes, can be completed in KoW via the release of Ba-Ado-Misram. A heroic sacrifice holding off the enemy while Shallan releases Ba-Ado-Mishram makes much more sense than Kaladin dying heroically.

Adolin doesn't have stormlight so it won't be the same.

21 minutes ago, Bort said:

And no-one was saying Kaladin cannot die, only that it would be a massive shame for him to work through all that depression, finally find a reason to continue living for himself, rather than others, only to sacrifice himself to protect others, thus never realising that he could actually be happy too. While utterly in character for Kaladin, it would paint a massive "What's the point?" on his entire character arc, which would in itself, be a kick in the teeth for those of us with depression. Those of us who do struggle with the question, "What's the point?"

You don't have a monoploy on depression.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

14 minutes ago, Bort said:

Having Kaladin's death relegated to a Ned Stark/Hoban Washburne shock factor moment would be terrible, and really shoddy writing.

Wasn't trying to saying it would be a similar scene or a shock factor moment, just that Kal has been our protagonist and vehicle into Roshar as Ned was into Westeros, and his death would evoke a similar sense of loss of a special character that we felt would stay around.

20 minutes ago, Bort said:

And no-one was saying Kaladin cannot die, only that it would be a massive shame for him to work through all that depression, finally find a reason to continue living for himself, rather than others, only to sacrifice himself to protect others, thus never realising that he could actually be happy too. While utterly in character for Kaladin, it would paint a massive "What's the point?" on his entire character arc, which would in itself, be a kick in the teeth for those of us with depression. Those of us who do struggle with the question, "What's the point?"

There are several comments here in the vein of exactly that, that you cannot kill off a character who is a model representation of depression, and I was trying to address those, not those that make points similar to yours.  However, I do think that, should Kal die though, Brandon would be very cognizant of the possibility of what you described, and would be sure to reinforce the ideas and progress Kal had made in some way to avoid that result.  I'm no writer but you catch my drift?  The man knows his audience!

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No choice is made simply because of character, otherwise Kal would have left the Shattered plains after WoK, but because that would take him out of the plot for WoR he stayed.

Character decisions are used to have the choice make sense in world, contextualize it, but is almost never the reason behind it.

I don't agree with this. I can't think of any choice that Kaladin has made that felt out of character to me. Staying at the shattered plains, where he could have a nice, cushy job that would keep his men relatively safe, pay them well, and allow him to train them under ideal circumstances was infinitely better, considering his character, than it would be to leave the shattered plains so that he could... what? take his men and become mercenaries? get "mistaken" for bandits by Sadeas' soldiers and killed? abandon his men, his responsibility and leave them to protect themselves, so that he can go off on his own? return to Hearthstone? What life was there for him, in his eyes, other than the life of a soldier?

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because in WoK it showed Kal's mental state, we got to watch things happen to him.

In RoW we are told what happened, we know Kaladin had nightmares, but we don't know anything beyond that, we are told Kal is tired, but we don't feel that. Kal's reaction to Teft dying felt like melodrama because we didn't see Kal taking care of him.

Again, I disagree. in tWoK, we saw bad stuff happen to Kaladin, but we are also told about his depression. We are told that Kaladin thinks it would be best to kill himself in Honor's chasm. Kaladin tells Syl that he thinks his cause is hopeless. in RoW, we start out by seeing what Kaladin has been going through. We see the pain it causes him when Sigzil nearly dies. Then Moash appears, and he tells us Kaladin's deepest fear. He tells Kaladin that everyone will die, that one day he won't get so lucky and Sigzil will die. All of them will. And we see how much Kaladin is affected by that. Then we see Kaladin have a group supporting him in his family, in Teft, in Adolin, In Shallan, in Syl, only to have all of that taken away. Adolin and Shallan leave. Teft falls unconscious. Lirin basically tells Kaladin that he hates him. Syl starts struggling with the same thing that Kaladin is. We are told the effects of this on Kaladin. Then Teft wakes up. they make a plan. Kaladin thinks that maybe he can get lucky again, that no one he loves will die, that he'll be able to protect all of them. Then Teft dies. Kaladin's reaction is not melodrama. It's him deciding that Moash was right. he can't protect Teft, he can't protect anyone. They'll all die.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As stated above death should leave things unfulfilled.

I thought you were arguing that Kaladin's arc was fulfilled? That him retiring and doing surgery would be boring?

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Adolin doesn't have stormlight so it won't be the same.

So give him stormlight. Have Shallan release Ba-Ado-Mishram, reviving Maya, who suddenly has a bond with Adolin. He uses his incredible skills along with his new powers to have an awesome moment, then die. Or maybe give him powers but make him lose anyways, getting killed by El, Ishar, or Moash, realizing that in the end, even with his new powers, he wasn't good enough. That Dalinar was right, and he should have become a windrunner, because maybe then he'd be worth something.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

If Kal dies that mean other characters like Dalinar and Shallan can die to, it would make the contset of Champions actually mean something, instead of the Dalinar curbstomp it's looking to be.

I would bet you a hundred plates of hemalurgic cookies that the Contest of Champions will not be a "Dalinar curbstomp". If it was going to be that, then Rayse would have lived until the end of KoW, because the entire point of killing him off was because he was not enough of a threatening villian anymore due to all the times he was beaten. Dalinar might "win" the contest, but make no mistake, TOdium is going to win the next book. There would be no point in replacing Rayse if Taravangian was just going to lose immediately anyways.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't agree with this. I can't think of any choice that Kaladin has made that felt out of character to me. Staying at the shattered plains, where he could have a nice, cushy job that would keep his men relatively safe, pay them well, and allow him to train them under ideal circumstances was infinitely better, considering his character, than it would be to leave the shattered plains so that he could... what? take his men and become mercenaries? get "mistaken" for bandits by Sadeas' soldiers and killed? abandon his men, his responsibility and leave them to protect themselves, so that he can go off on his own? return to Hearthstone? What life was there for him, in his eyes, other than the life of a soldier?

What was he planing on doing before rescuing Dalinar?

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Again, I disagree. in tWoK, we saw bad stuff happen to Kaladin, but we are also told about his depression. We are told that Kaladin thinks it would be best to kill himself in Honor's chasm. Kaladin tells Syl that he thinks his cause is hopeless. in RoW, we start out by seeing what Kaladin has been going through. We see the pain it causes him when Sigzil nearly dies. Then Moash appears, and he tells us Kaladin's deepest fear. He tells Kaladin that everyone will die, that one day he won't get so lucky and Sigzil will die. All of them will. And we see how much Kaladin is affected by that. Then we see Kaladin have a group supporting him in his family, in Teft, in Adolin, In Shallan, in Syl, only to have all of that taken away. Adolin and Shallan leave. Teft falls unconscious. Lirin basically tells Kaladin that he hates him. Syl starts struggling with the same thing that Kaladin is. We are told the effects of this on Kaladin. Then Teft wakes up. they make a plan. Kaladin thinks that maybe he can get lucky again, that no one he loves will die, that he'll be able to protect all of them. Then Teft dies. Kaladin's reaction is not melodrama. It's him deciding that Moash was right. he can't protect Teft, he can't protect anyone. They'll all die.

In WoK Kaladin talks to Syl about how he feels while looking at a fall that will kill him, after a slow build up of him hinting at it with his conversation with Gaz,

In RoW Moash says "They're all going to die," no build up, nothing, and Kal is now incompasitated.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I thought you were arguing that Kaladin's arc was fulfilled? That him retiring and doing surgery would be boring?

There are things you can do with him. Boring things, but things.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So give him stormlight. Have Shallan release Ba-Ado-Mishram, reviving Maya, who suddenly has a bond with Adolin. He uses his incredible skills along with his new powers to have an awesome moment, then die. Or maybe give him powers but make him lose anyways, getting killed by El, Ishar, or Moash, realizing that in the end, even with his new powers, he wasn't good enough. That Dalinar was right, and he should have become a windrunner, because maybe then he'd be worth something.

That would be... complicated.

17 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I would bet you a hundred plates of hemalurgic cookies that the Contest of Champions will not be a "Dalinar curbstomp". If it was going to be that, then Rayse would have lived until the end of KoW, because the entire point of killing him off was because he was not enough of a threatening villian anymore due to all the times he was beaten. Dalinar might "win" the contest, but make no mistake, TOdium is going to win the next book. There would be no point in replacing Rayse if Taravangian was just going to lose immediately anyways.

Taravangian was actually one of the better moves with the villains in Stormlight, but I doubt he's going to be much more effective at putting the characters in danger.

It will probably be used more for Szeth, than as a threat.

[Olmund]

2 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

Journey before destination homies, Kal's development and growth absolutely still means something even if he passes.

That's my perspective. I believe Brandon will try to show that fighting against suicidal tendencies is truly worthwhile, despite the inevitable. Retirement is also possible, but I don't think Brandon will turn Kaladin into an immortal worldhopper -- because that certainly wouldn't "do justice" to those who struggle with extreme depression. Most would feel that immortality is not on the table for them.

A heroic death is not guaranteed, but for a book demanding closure it is a very likely outcome. Kaladin is not the only candidate, but his death would offer the most closure. I wish that the gap between books 5 and 6 were confirmed to be at least 50 years -- that amount of time would offer much more closure in itself. As it stands, a 15 year gap means that nearly every character who survives in Book 5 will be around in Book 6, so a true sense of closure will be hard to come by.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

What was he planing on doing before rescuing Dalinar?

He was planning on taking the best option available to him. You think that he could have gone up to Dalinar and asked for a job as his bodyguard? As a slave from Sadeas' warcamp? 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

In WoK Kaladin talks to Syl about how he feels while looking at a fall that will kill him, after a slow build up of him hinting at it with his conversation with Gaz,

In RoW Moash says "They're all going to die," no build up, nothing, and Kal is now incompasitated.

So Sigzil almost dying was no build up? Kaladin freezing when Elhokar died? The Honor's Chasm scene in tWoK didn't show that Kaladin couldn't bear losing people? How about the part of tWoK where Kaladin literally gave up on the bridgemen, deciding that since they were all going to die, it was better to just give up and let it happen, because that way at least he wouldn't hurt as much? The entire series has built up that Kaladin can barely function when he loses people. Kaladin just saw Sigzil nearly die. And then Moash comes along and tells Kaladin what he knows, deep down, to be true: He can't protect everyone. They will all die, in the end. And if you can't protect the people you care about, then why keep living? Why try, if in trying all you do is cause more pain to yourself?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

There are things you can do with him. Boring things, but things.

So there's no loss in your eyes. You want him to die because the alternative is worse, in your opinion. In your eyes, Kaladin's purpose would be fulfilled by dying. Am I wrong? That's the impression that I get from your arguments so far.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That would be... complicated.

And Brandon can't write complicated things? the man wrote three books of Mat Cauthon.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian was actually one of the better moves with the villains in Stormlight, but I doubt he's going to be much more effective at putting the characters in danger.

It will probably be used more for Szeth, than as a threat.

Right. After all that philosophical debate with Dalinar. After attaining the power of a god, after Brandon killed Rayse specifically because he got defeated too often, and Brandon finds an ideological clash to be better than a simple fight against evil:

(Spoiled for length and also Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Las Aventuras de Erif

How did you decide to turn Taravangian into Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

How did I decide to do that? There are a couple reasons I decided to do that. This was one of the things didn't have to go this way. It is actually a good one I can talk about because I had multiple options here. Even until I was turning in this outline to my team and saying "Alright, it's time to sink or swim, do we like this or not?", I was going back and forth on it. Really until I had written the scenes and given them to my alpha readers and said, "alright, are you guys ready for me to pull the trigger on this?" because there are costs. The major cost is that Odium is a better ancient unknowable evil. Odium was filling the role in the books of Sauron. Ancient thing, very dangerous, very strange, very powerful and whatnot.

The thing is, my books aren't really about that. I will write books dealing with some of that sort of stuff, but that's not the sort of thing that is as exciting. It's not really as much a theme of my stories, the ancient unknowable evil. The whole purpose of Mistborn—one of them, it's not the purpose—is that even the Lord Ruler you've got to know. Even Ruin became a character that you understood. It is a cost, I will admit. It wasn't as strong for me as it might have been somewhere else. I do know that some people would prefer that, and I can understand why. Sauron makes a pretty great bad guy. Ancient, powerful, unknowable, evil forces—but I feel like I get that in the Shard itself. One of the things that I plan to play up more as the Cosmere goes forward is that these powers have some sort of primal sense to them. That's always in my mind been the bigger danger than than Rayse is that.

That is, the negatives were not that big of negatives. And what are the positives? In Oathbringer, Dalinar did not fall to Odium. That is a huge blow to Odium, Rayse-Odium. The fact that at the end of book three he was defeated in a major way, and in book four he gets defeated again, this time by Kaladin. We have proven that two of our primary viewpoint protagonists of the Stormlight Archive are able to resist and defeat him. My opinion was that by that point in the Stormlight Archive, Odium would no longer, Odium-Rayse would no longer be a threat. You run into this in lots of long running epic fantasy series. I've talked a lot about how when I was designing Stormlight Archive, the things I had read in other long running fantasy series were a big part of why I designed it the way I did. For instance, in the Wheel of Time it was very difficult—even in the ones I was writing—to maintain a sense of threat for the Forsaken when they had just been defeated right and left every book. They do get their licks in now and then, but it's real hard to keep considering Ba'alzamon from the first one to be a threat when boy, Rand just defeats him and defeats him again and defeats him again and then defeats him again. This is a problem for a lot of media. How threatening is Magneto really when he never wins?

At this point in the series, what I wanted to do was hit you with a left hook from somebody that I considered more frightening, more dangerous, more capable, and who had been growing as an antagonist for a while. And while some of his ploys had not turned out, he is still very threatening. My hope was that this reveal to a portion of the audience—I knew that some would prefer Odium, but to I hoped a larger portion—would be like, "Oh, this just got real."

I've mentioned before that my favorite antagonist is Magneto, I've brought him up before. I like characters who have clashes, antagonists who have clashes of ideology, not just clashes of forces. A reason I'm not excited to write about somebody like Sauron is that, while there are clashes of ideology behind the scenes, on screen for the movies and books it's basically: Sauron wants to rule the world and we don't want him to. That works really well in Lord of the Rings because you have, as I've talked about, part of the brilliance of the Lord of the Rings is both having Sauron, Saruman, and Gollum to represent three different kinds of evil and three different antagonists that work in tandem really well together. It's part of the brilliance of the Lord of the Rings. But I like having a villain like Taravangian. Taravangian, who has a world view that is a certain world view and that is terrifying because of how that world view is. Elevating him to Odium so that you mixed that with the kind of ancient spren of hatred that is still a very big, dominant part of what he's now become—I just thought made for a more compelling and interesting villain for the fact that we have many more books left in the Stormlight Archive and in the Cosmere, and I had done what I wanted to with Rayse-Odium.

There's my answer. It is totally viable to have, viable is the wrong term, totally understandable that some would have preferred me to go a different direction, but my instinct says—and I haven't done any polls or things on this—that the majority of fans are going to like this direction better, and I certainly think the story will turn out better. That's what led me to make that decision, but these were all things I was heavily considering. Adam was there watching those emails go around with me and the team when I was asking if I should pull the trigger on this or not. There are a couple of things that I've made decisions on that have been some of the most difficult or most far-reaching in that regard, but that I think I made the right decision on.

The other one was bringing Kelsier back. Kelsier, so I seeded all the stuff in the original books to bring Kelsier back, but then I backed off on it, and for a while I'm like eh, I don't think I'm going to bring Kelsier back. During that whole thing, oh this is a fun spoiler thing that I don't think I've talked about before: during that time in the outlining—some of you may again have much preferred this—TenSoon was actually going to be Thaidakar, wearing Kelsier's bones. There was a time where I was going to play with a kandra believing they were Kelsier, in this case TenSoon. I was going to go this direction where it's like, I'm the Survivor, I'm picking up the Survivor's heritage and I'm doing all of this sort of stuff—I did warn you all about spoilers—and there was a time in there where I decided no, I'm going to leave Kelsier dead—that I'm going to go this direction. Why did I back off on that one? A couple reasons, number one I feel like I really did a solid job with Lessie in the second of the Wax and Wayne books, which was a similar conflict. I felt like I got that out of my system. I did it well, I think that story has some really heart-wrenching things, but as I wrote that story I felt that it was a one-book story.

One of the things I've come to be aware of as I've written, this stretches back to the days of Elantris where my original ending had too many twists. It's been changed, like I had some weird twist where Hrathen had secretly come to Elantris at some point and had a heritage that made him Aleth—not Alethi—made him Aonic and things like that and it was dumb and it didn't work. It was twisting for twists sake. And part of me worries, and part of me actually doesn't just worry, I think that if I had done that whole thing with TenSoon it would have been less cool than what I just actually wanted to have happen, which was to give a full finished character arc to Kelsier. At that point I went back to what my original plan had been and I picked up those threads, and that's when I wrote Secret History, after I had finally made that decision. And it comes with costs too. Everything comes with costs. Having main character die in such a spectacular way and then not being quite dead yet has certain costs in your narrative. The more you do that less that death is meaningful in the stories, the more it feels like a gotcha and things like that. Yet at the same time on the other side, I don't think the Lord of the Rings is weaker for having brought back Gandalf. I think the Lord of the Rings is stronger, and why is that? Gandalf comes back changed as a different person and makes the story more interesting for having returned. My original plan with Kelsier was just more interesting in the long run. Forcing Kelsier to do these things and fi—he did not complete his character arc, and that's part of why it was so heart-wrenching to lose him, which I understand. Bringing him back in that regard lets me finish his story, and I just think that's going to be more satisfying. I gain more than I lose.

Plus there's the fact that someone comes back from the dead in the first chapter of the very first Cosmere book. Second chances at life is a major theme of the Cosmere. Both Warbreaker and Elantris that's kind of—Warbreaker it's the primary theme: second chance at life. You're doing a different thing with your life than you thought you would do, and let's take a second stab at it. I think that being able to play with that with Kelsier is a stronger narrative thing to do. This was also influenced by my, as I've talked about before, sort of shrinking the timescale a little bit of the Cosmere so that more of the characters from the different books can interact. It just makes better storytelling. I would say that those are the two things that in outline I could have gone different directions when I actually got to the story. When it was time to write Secret History I had to make the call. He had been dead, he had been alive, he had been dead, he had been alive, at least in my head, and I made that call. The same thing actually happened with Taravangian. It had been am I going to pull the trigger, was he going to become Odium or not? I actually vacillated on that and eventually have made the decision I made. 

Adam

Are you ever going to reveal what the alternate was going to be, kind of like what you just did?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe eventually I will, but for now I will not. It's easier to reveal in Mistborn because it's basically all in the past. It isn't to say that I won't do something else like that, with a kandra. I might, but Lessie's story covered that real well. Who knows what I'll do, but I've backed off on, for those who have read Way of Kings Prime, Taln's original story was the story of am I an angel or am I not? Am I a Herald or am I not? Am I this divine being or am I a normal person? And that actually plays real well in Way of Kings Prime. It is just not a thing I could make work in the actual published version of Way of Kings. It's one of the things that's cool about Way of Kings Prime, is being able to see some of these ideas that I can't express in the actual series. Part of the reason I can't is also, number one I wanted to bring the voidbringers in and all of these things, and you just can't... The more fantastical your book is, the less the reader will be able to suspend disbelief about your character who claims that they're not some mythological legend from lore actually not being that mythological—they walk onstage and are like, "I think that I'm this mythological legend from lore but my powers are gone." Ninety-nine readers out of a hundred are going to be like, "yep, I believe you", even though all the rest of the people in the books are going to be like, "No of course you're not." The reader—because it's just cooler that way. It's very hard to fulfill on good promises by not having that turn out that way. Beyond that, the story I wanted to tell involved Taln and so big surprise, Taln is a Herald!

YouTube Livestream 32 (June 3, 2021)  

 

21 minutes ago, Olmund said:

That's my perspective. I believe Brandon will try to show that fighting against suicidal tendencies is truly worthwhile, despite the inevitable. Retirement is also possible, but I don't think Brandon will turn Kaladin into an immortal worldhopper -- because that certainly wouldn't "do justice" to those who struggle with extreme depression. Most would feel that immortality is not on the table for them.

I definitely agree that Kaladin becoming an immortal worldhopper is almost certainly off the table, as much as I would love for it to happen.

22 minutes ago, Olmund said:

A heroic death is not guaranteed, but for a book demanding closure it is a very likely outcome. Kaladin is not the only candidate, but his death would offer the most closure. I wish that the gap between books 5 and 6 were confirmed to be at least 50 years -- that amount of time would offer much more closure in itself. As it stands, a 15 year gap means that nearly every character who survives in Book 5 will be around in Book 6, so a true sense of closure will be hard to come by.

I don't think characters need to die in order for them to get closure. Look at Lord of the Rings. Main characters survive the story and go on to live lives that are in keeping with their character, and they get the closure that they deserve.

[Olmund]

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think characters need to die in order for them to get closure. Look at Lord of the Rings. Main characters survive the story and go on to live lives that are in keeping with their character, and they get the closure that they deserve.

Lord of the Rings does not feature a sequel series that takes place 15 years later with nearly the same cast. The major threat of LotR has been vanquished, and so it makes sense for the surviving characters to go on with their peaceful lives. Even then, most of the closure comes from the characters who actually have reached the end of their respective lives: Gandalf, Bilbo, nearly all the elves, and especially Frodo -- who sacrificed himself physically, mentally, and emotionally -- who then make their sea voyage into the (not quite confirmed) afterlife.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Olmund

[NameIess]

Just now, Olmund said:

Lord of the Rings does not feature a sequel series that takes place 15 years later with all the same characters. The major threat of LotR has been vanquished, and so it makes sense for the surviving characters to go on with their peaceful lives. Even then, most of the closure comes from the characters who actually have reached the end of their respective lives: Gandalf, Bilbo, nearly all the elves, and especially Frodo -- who sacrificed himself physically, mentally, and emotionally -- who then make their sea voyage into the (not quite confirmed) afterlife.

Alright. Why can't the characters get closure in the new series? honestly having another series will probably help Brandon bring closure to surviving characters.

[Olmund]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Alright. Why can't the characters get closure in the new series? honestly having another series will probably help Brandon bring closure to surviving characters.

Because it's not just about closure for the characters -- it's about closure for the readership. Brandon has promised two separate entities in the SA -- a front half and a back half -- with a long writing hiatus and a corresponding timeskip between the two series. If the front half lacks closure, you don't have two entities -- you have one long series with a long, painful hiatus between the first and the second half.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Olmund

[NameIess]

Just now, Olmund said:

Because it's not just about closure for the characters -- it's about closure for the readership. Brandon has promised two separate entities in the SA -- a front half and a back half -- with a long writing hiatus and a corresponding timeskip between the two series. If the front half lacks closure, you don't have two entities -- you have one long series with an a long, painful hiatus between the first and the second half.

Right. So some of the characters get closure in the first half, except for those who are going to have their own character arcs. And we get to see some of the characters who aren't the focus anymore after they got closure. That's a bonus, not a problem.

[Anomander Rake he/him]

52 minutes ago, Olmund said:

That's my perspective. I believe Brandon will try to show that fighting against suicidal tendencies is truly worthwhile, despite the inevitable. Retirement is also possible, but I don't think Brandon will turn Kaladin into an immortal worldhopper -- because that certainly wouldn't "do justice" to those who struggle with extreme depression. Most would feel that immortality is not on the table for them.

Amen to that.  The fight against depression, addiction, etc, is just that, a fight, and one that people can and do lose.  Brandon has done a great job showing us that so far.

54 minutes ago, Olmund said:

A heroic death is not guaranteed, but for a book demanding closure it is a very likely outcome. Kaladin is not the only candidate, but his death would offer the most closure. I wish that the gap between books 5 and 6 were confirmed to be at least 50 years -- that amount of time would offer much more closure in itself. As it stands, a 15 year gap means that nearly every character who survives in Book 5 will be around in Book 6, so a true sense of closure will be hard to come by.

17 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Alright. Why can't the characters get closure in the new series? honestly having another series will probably help Brandon bring closure to surviving characters.

11 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Because it's not just about closure for the characters -- it's about closure for the readership. Brandon has promised two separate entities in the SA -- a front half and a back half -- with a long writing hiatus and a corresponding timeskip between the two series. If the front half lacks closure, you don't have two entities -- you have one long series with a long, painful hiatus between the first and the second half.

I don't think it is so much an issue of it not being possible for characters to get proper closure in a second series as it is an issue of how easy it is to do, and a short gap is certainly going to make that tougher.  Look at the 300 year gap between Mistborn Eras 1 and 2, and the closure we got from that - (spoiler for mistborn era 1-2)

Spoiler

we know, save a few obvious supernatural exceptions, that everyone from the first series is long gone, but we still get tons of gracious nods to characters in the religion, names, and history of Elendel.  I can't speak for everyone but I was a fan of how this was handled; the events of the first story felt important in world, and I loved that the gang is remebered and revered in a religious way.  I felt smugly happy to be privy to all the info of the first books, especially when characters wonder aloud about The Lord Mistborn and the Ascendant Warrior (Wax seeing a ghostly Vin bouncing around the mists? *mwuah*, chefs kiss).

Not a perfect comparison as Stormlight is a different beast, but a 15 year gap leaves the book with a ton of chores.  We need to check up on all of the main cast (how is every member of bridge 4 doing?  what are all Shallans brothers doing? how about that one obscure fan favorite that was mentioned like twice?), and most if not all will need at least a few paragraphs/sentences of goings on during the timeskip, not to mention the scores of pages needed to do this for the main cast.  Gonna be 15 years of new fabrial science following some seriously important discoveries to break down too (tho i guess this would be exacerbated by a longer gap)!  Hoped you liked that part of RoW (i did so I'm actually pretty excited for this LOL)!  Apologies for rambling, I just worry about what a massive feat this seems like, tho I trust Brando to deliver.

 

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He was planning on taking the best option available to him. You think that he could have gone up to Dalinar and asked for a job as his bodyguard? As a slave from Sadeas' warcamp? 

No, he was going to take bridge four and make a run for it.

Afterwards he had no reason to stay other then simple curiosity.

46 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So Sigzil almost dying was no build up? Kaladin freezing when Elhokar died? The Honor's Chasm scene in tWoK didn't show that Kaladin couldn't bear losing people? How about the part of tWoK where Kaladin literally gave up on the bridgemen, deciding that since they were all going to die, it was better to just give up and let it happen, because that way at least he wouldn't hurt as much? The entire series has built up that Kaladin can barely function when he loses people. Kaladin just saw Sigzil nearly die. And then Moash comes along and tells Kaladin what he knows, deep down, to be true: He can't protect everyone. They will all die, in the end. And if you can't protect the people you care about, then why keep living? Why try, if in trying all you do is cause more pain to yourself?

How much of that was RoW? How much of that actually incapacitated him?

He was getting better by the end of OB, and there was a full year in between.

Really Kaladin has ended every book in the same state.

48 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And Brandon can't write complicated things? the man wrote three books of Mat Cauthon.

Would you prefer I call it convuluted?

BAM get's released Adolin swears three-five ideals in a row and then dies in a single chapter.

I mean, he could do it, but why? That just feels forced

50 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Right. After all that philosophical debate with Dalinar. After attaining the power of a god, after Brandon killed Rayse specifically because he got defeated too often, and Brandon finds an ideological clash to be better than a simple fight against evil:

(Spoiled for length and also Mistborn spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Las Aventuras de Erif

How did you decide to turn Taravangian into Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

How did I decide to do that? There are a couple reasons I decided to do that. This was one of the things didn't have to go this way. It is actually a good one I can talk about because I had multiple options here. Even until I was turning in this outline to my team and saying "Alright, it's time to sink or swim, do we like this or not?", I was going back and forth on it. Really until I had written the scenes and given them to my alpha readers and said, "alright, are you guys ready for me to pull the trigger on this?" because there are costs. The major cost is that Odium is a better ancient unknowable evil. Odium was filling the role in the books of Sauron. Ancient thing, very dangerous, very strange, very powerful and whatnot.

The thing is, my books aren't really about that. I will write books dealing with some of that sort of stuff, but that's not the sort of thing that is as exciting. It's not really as much a theme of my stories, the ancient unknowable evil. The whole purpose of Mistborn—one of them, it's not the purpose—is that even the Lord Ruler you've got to know. Even Ruin became a character that you understood. It is a cost, I will admit. It wasn't as strong for me as it might have been somewhere else. I do know that some people would prefer that, and I can understand why. Sauron makes a pretty great bad guy. Ancient, powerful, unknowable, evil forces—but I feel like I get that in the Shard itself. One of the things that I plan to play up more as the Cosmere goes forward is that these powers have some sort of primal sense to them. That's always in my mind been the bigger danger than than Rayse is that.

That is, the negatives were not that big of negatives. And what are the positives? In Oathbringer, Dalinar did not fall to Odium. That is a huge blow to Odium, Rayse-Odium. The fact that at the end of book three he was defeated in a major way, and in book four he gets defeated again, this time by Kaladin. We have proven that two of our primary viewpoint protagonists of the Stormlight Archive are able to resist and defeat him. My opinion was that by that point in the Stormlight Archive, Odium would no longer, Odium-Rayse would no longer be a threat. You run into this in lots of long running epic fantasy series. I've talked a lot about how when I was designing Stormlight Archive, the things I had read in other long running fantasy series were a big part of why I designed it the way I did. For instance, in the Wheel of Time it was very difficult—even in the ones I was writing—to maintain a sense of threat for the Forsaken when they had just been defeated right and left every book. They do get their licks in now and then, but it's real hard to keep considering Ba'alzamon from the first one to be a threat when boy, Rand just defeats him and defeats him again and defeats him again and then defeats him again. This is a problem for a lot of media. How threatening is Magneto really when he never wins?

At this point in the series, what I wanted to do was hit you with a left hook from somebody that I considered more frightening, more dangerous, more capable, and who had been growing as an antagonist for a while. And while some of his ploys had not turned out, he is still very threatening. My hope was that this reveal to a portion of the audience—I knew that some would prefer Odium, but to I hoped a larger portion—would be like, "Oh, this just got real."

I've mentioned before that my favorite antagonist is Magneto, I've brought him up before. I like characters who have clashes, antagonists who have clashes of ideology, not just clashes of forces. A reason I'm not excited to write about somebody like Sauron is that, while there are clashes of ideology behind the scenes, on screen for the movies and books it's basically: Sauron wants to rule the world and we don't want him to. That works really well in Lord of the Rings because you have, as I've talked about, part of the brilliance of the Lord of the Rings is both having Sauron, Saruman, and Gollum to represent three different kinds of evil and three different antagonists that work in tandem really well together. It's part of the brilliance of the Lord of the Rings. But I like having a villain like Taravangian. Taravangian, who has a world view that is a certain world view and that is terrifying because of how that world view is. Elevating him to Odium so that you mixed that with the kind of ancient spren of hatred that is still a very big, dominant part of what he's now become—I just thought made for a more compelling and interesting villain for the fact that we have many more books left in the Stormlight Archive and in the Cosmere, and I had done what I wanted to with Rayse-Odium.

There's my answer. It is totally viable to have, viable is the wrong term, totally understandable that some would have preferred me to go a different direction, but my instinct says—and I haven't done any polls or things on this—that the majority of fans are going to like this direction better, and I certainly think the story will turn out better. That's what led me to make that decision, but these were all things I was heavily considering. Adam was there watching those emails go around with me and the team when I was asking if I should pull the trigger on this or not. There are a couple of things that I've made decisions on that have been some of the most difficult or most far-reaching in that regard, but that I think I made the right decision on.

The other one was bringing Kelsier back. Kelsier, so I seeded all the stuff in the original books to bring Kelsier back, but then I backed off on it, and for a while I'm like eh, I don't think I'm going to bring Kelsier back. During that whole thing, oh this is a fun spoiler thing that I don't think I've talked about before: during that time in the outlining—some of you may again have much preferred this—TenSoon was actually going to be Thaidakar, wearing Kelsier's bones. There was a time where I was going to play with a kandra believing they were Kelsier, in this case TenSoon. I was going to go this direction where it's like, I'm the Survivor, I'm picking up the Survivor's heritage and I'm doing all of this sort of stuff—I did warn you all about spoilers—and there was a time in there where I decided no, I'm going to leave Kelsier dead—that I'm going to go this direction. Why did I back off on that one? A couple reasons, number one I feel like I really did a solid job with Lessie in the second of the Wax and Wayne books, which was a similar conflict. I felt like I got that out of my system. I did it well, I think that story has some really heart-wrenching things, but as I wrote that story I felt that it was a one-book story.

One of the things I've come to be aware of as I've written, this stretches back to the days of Elantris where my original ending had too many twists. It's been changed, like I had some weird twist where Hrathen had secretly come to Elantris at some point and had a heritage that made him Aleth—not Alethi—made him Aonic and things like that and it was dumb and it didn't work. It was twisting for twists sake. And part of me worries, and part of me actually doesn't just worry, I think that if I had done that whole thing with TenSoon it would have been less cool than what I just actually wanted to have happen, which was to give a full finished character arc to Kelsier. At that point I went back to what my original plan had been and I picked up those threads, and that's when I wrote Secret History, after I had finally made that decision. And it comes with costs too. Everything comes with costs. Having main character die in such a spectacular way and then not being quite dead yet has certain costs in your narrative. The more you do that less that death is meaningful in the stories, the more it feels like a gotcha and things like that. Yet at the same time on the other side, I don't think the Lord of the Rings is weaker for having brought back Gandalf. I think the Lord of the Rings is stronger, and why is that? Gandalf comes back changed as a different person and makes the story more interesting for having returned. My original plan with Kelsier was just more interesting in the long run. Forcing Kelsier to do these things and fi—he did not complete his character arc, and that's part of why it was so heart-wrenching to lose him, which I understand. Bringing him back in that regard lets me finish his story, and I just think that's going to be more satisfying. I gain more than I lose.

Plus there's the fact that someone comes back from the dead in the first chapter of the very first Cosmere book. Second chances at life is a major theme of the Cosmere. Both Warbreaker and Elantris that's kind of—Warbreaker it's the primary theme: second chance at life. You're doing a different thing with your life than you thought you would do, and let's take a second stab at it. I think that being able to play with that with Kelsier is a stronger narrative thing to do. This was also influenced by my, as I've talked about before, sort of shrinking the timescale a little bit of the Cosmere so that more of the characters from the different books can interact. It just makes better storytelling. I would say that those are the two things that in outline I could have gone different directions when I actually got to the story. When it was time to write Secret History I had to make the call. He had been dead, he had been alive, he had been dead, he had been alive, at least in my head, and I made that call. The same thing actually happened with Taravangian. It had been am I going to pull the trigger, was he going to become Odium or not? I actually vacillated on that and eventually have made the decision I made. 

Adam

Are you ever going to reveal what the alternate was going to be, kind of like what you just did?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe eventually I will, but for now I will not. It's easier to reveal in Mistborn because it's basically all in the past. It isn't to say that I won't do something else like that, with a kandra. I might, but Lessie's story covered that real well. Who knows what I'll do, but I've backed off on, for those who have read Way of Kings Prime, Taln's original story was the story of am I an angel or am I not? Am I a Herald or am I not? Am I this divine being or am I a normal person? And that actually plays real well in Way of Kings Prime. It is just not a thing I could make work in the actual published version of Way of Kings. It's one of the things that's cool about Way of Kings Prime, is being able to see some of these ideas that I can't express in the actual series. Part of the reason I can't is also, number one I wanted to bring the voidbringers in and all of these things, and you just can't... The more fantastical your book is, the less the reader will be able to suspend disbelief about your character who claims that they're not some mythological legend from lore actually not being that mythological—they walk onstage and are like, "I think that I'm this mythological legend from lore but my powers are gone." Ninety-nine readers out of a hundred are going to be like, "yep, I believe you", even though all the rest of the people in the books are going to be like, "No of course you're not." The reader—because it's just cooler that way. It's very hard to fulfill on good promises by not having that turn out that way. Beyond that, the story I wanted to tell involved Taln and so big surprise, Taln is a Herald!

YouTube Livestream 32 (June 3, 2021)  

 

Taravangian winning in any manor doesn't mean anything if there isn't danger to the characters. It's not just a SA problem it's been consistent with all of his works.