MistLord Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Learning about the Cosmere from my Mistborn beginnings has always seemed fascinating to me ever since I first went onto the Coppermind for the first time to discover the presence of Devotion as a Shard akin to that of Preservation and Ruin. I was sold on Sanderson since then. The idea that forces in the universe had a manifestation and bearer was inspired. What struck me as odd about the Stormlight Archive was the presence of Odium. All the Shards we've seen so far represent something fairly neutral (justifications are below, skip those if you don't need to read them). Ruin - Despite his depiction as an antagonist, Ruin is not 'evil' as such, he merely wanted to follow his intent to follow change and decay. It's just unfortunate that it would mean the destruction of the world. Preservation - Conversely, despite being shown as a force of good, Preservation could easily have been an antagonist if there was a revolutionary phase on Scadrial and somehow Preservation was moving to stop advancements in technology (just realised how fitting Rashek's work in the Final Empire was). Devotion - You can be devoted to anything, be it something of ill or good intent. Dominion - There's nothing wrong for a hierarchy in society, and that by itself shows some having dominion over others. Endowment - The act of giving something to something else in transference and exchange is one of the most neutral. As we see from Endowment's magical system itself, Awakening, giving something to someone is not always a good thing (Nightblood). Honor - A moral code, a belief to live by. If there's anything we learn from in the Stormlight Archive it's that despite believing what you do is right and following your own set of rules and living up to your promises and oaths, it's not always the right thing to do. Cultivation - One may cultivate any crop, be it the will to do good or the anger to revenge. And then bam, we've been shaken up by the last one: Odium It seems the odd one out. Hatred. How is it that the universe, in all of it's components have hate being one sixteenth of its entirety? From something so simple as the forces in the universe having life, we are confronted that hate has one as well. Scary stuff. It raises a question I find. Could Odium's existence be the reason for the Shattering in the first place? Shatter Adonalsium, remove Odium, then put the pieces back together without the corrupted piece - or Shard in this case. This would even tie in with Hoid's heightened activity in the Stormlight Archive where Odium is active. Maybe Hoid was the one to break Adonalsium. Complete speculation on my part, but I want to hear from you lot about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Adonalsium was not a collection of the 16 Shards - not the way Harmony is the sum of Preservation and Ruin. Because it could've been Shattered into a different set of Shards (different number, different Intents), it looks like it was a much indivisible, much like I and you are not just a collection of our Devotion, sense of Preservation, desire to Change (Ruin), code of Honor, Hatred, and so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistLord Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 And yet the Odium oddity is there. Why Odium? Why not something more neutral, like discord or chaos? Even those have less immediate negativity, despite what popular belief would let you think. Hate is always something to be avoided. Unlike any of the other shards (even Dominion), Odium is a Shard to be fought. Granted, I can't say much for any Shards not released yet, but I feel the groundwork is solid enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 It is solid, I am not sure if it's solid enough - we know only about half of the Shards as of today. I agree that Odium is a little different from the others - he is pretty aggressive, Hoid calls him "the most dangerous" of the Shards, and it sounds like Reyse was a pretty nasty dude even before he drank the hatorade. But I am not sure that's enough to make a claim as bold as yours. Neither am I sure Odium is as special as you consider him - hatred is not exclusively negative and destructive, it's a very efficient motivator as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketek Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 The letter in Words of Radiance indicates that Odium is very much a divine aspect, just separated from the other attributes that gave it context: He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become. Hatred is not an evil thing. One can hate unjust things like sexism and racism. Hate can be a very strong motivator to change things - sometimes for the better. It is likely Rayse who's filtering Odium's intent in such a way that he's turned evil. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 It is likely Rayse who's filtering Odium's intent in such a way that he's turned evil. And then again, we can't - as of yet - be absolutely certain Odium is truly evil. He employs despicable measures to attain his goals, and int the specific context of Roshar, I think you could convincingly claim that he can be seen as evil, but we know little of his ultimate goals and intentions. For all we know, he too could have a just cause, just one that is particularly destructive to Sel and Roshar. And just to prematurely deflect the most relevant criticism, we know from WoBs that he aims at being the strongest entity in the Cosmere, but if this is mere hunger for power or if he has some ulterior motive for doing so, we do not know. And just to be clear, I think he's an evil bastard, but it might not be quite as clear cut as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobold King Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) And then again, we can't - as of yet - be absolutely certain Odium is truly evil. He employs despicable measures to attain his goals, and int the specific context of Roshar, I think you could convincingly claim that he can be seen as evil, but we know little of his ultimate goals and intentions. For all we know, he too could have a just cause, just one that is particularly destructive to Sel and Roshar. And just to prematurely deflect the most relevant criticism, we know from WoBs that he aims at being the strongest entity in the Cosmere, but if this is mere hunger for power or if he has some ulterior motive for doing so, we do not know. And just to be clear, I think he's an evil bastard, but it might not be quite as clear cut as that. So you are suggesting that he's evil, but has some good effects? I wonder what could be so bad that Desolations and the Splinterings of Honor, Devotion, and Dominion are preferable alternatives. Maybe Adonalsium WAS evil, and part of Odium's motivation for destroying other Shards is to prevent It from being reassembled. EDIT: As per Argent's suggestion, removed spoiler. I'm not even quite sure why I put it there in the first place. Thanks for the tip! Edited April 28, 2014 by Kobold King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 @Kobold King, you could rewrite your spoiler with a less specific / outside-the-book example and it will work just as well, but might reach more people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I am now slightly curious about what his original example was... There are several Threads floating around with theories about Odium's motives really are and some that even claim that he is neither the great über-boss of the Cosmere, nor of the Stormlight Archive, At this point in the SA series, we just do not really know all that much about Odium, other than that he shattered Devotion, Dominium and Honour, and that he brings about the Desolations. His motives for either of these are obscure at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 In jest, I suggest Hoid and Rayse were lovers, and the cosmere meta narrative is one of broken love, driving Rayse to choose Odium in his pain and quest for revenge after being spurned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Assuming that the Shardholders were involved in the shattering of Adonalsium, then it could be that they didn't know that Odium was going to happen. Rayse could have caused it to form without the others knowing about it so now it exists but without a Shard that can balance it. Edited May 4, 2014 by CrystalBodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Assuming that the Shardbearers were involved in the shattering of Adonalsium, then it could be that they didn't know that Odium was going to happen. Rayse could have caused it to form without the others knowing about it so now it exists but without a Shard that can balance it. We use "Shardholders" when we have to refer to the people who pick up the Shards of Adonalsium. It's a term that exists in order to avoid ambiguity with Shardbearers on Roshar - who use Shardblades and Shardplates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistLord Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 As I said, this is complete speculation (what I consider not enough to be a theory), but I truly appreciate the discussion. Especially all the theorists I've been following around the forums and who have actually been taking part in my very own thread It may be that hatred more of a neutral feeling than I'm seeing it as, but... Well, it may be my personal beliefs and upbringing, but I'm generally a firm believer than hatred is never a good thing. One shouldn't hate rascism, merely not be tolerant of it. Hatred breeds hatred, you know? This is a mature forum, and for that reason I'm being open with these opinions as controversial as they may seem. Philosophical standpoint aside however, I agree this would somehow make Odium to be 'the big bad of the cosmere', a villain that certainly shouldn't be around this early. I'm not entirely convinced (as always), as even with Odium removed Adonalsium needs to be put together again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 It's unclear if 'putting Adonalsium together again' is the goal of anyone, and it doesn't seem to necessarily be possible. We have WoB that joining Ruin and Preservation together didn't make them one fixed shard, anymore than gluing the pieces of broken vase together will make it perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistLord Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 True - but I was just working under my hypothetical, speculation proposing Adonalsium was shattered with the express intent on removing Odium, and once Odium is removed it would be put together again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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