Jump to content

Allomantic Faster than Light - Something that doesn't involve Pulsers/Sliders


Tempus

Recommended Posts

I was going through my usually bought of theorizing when I saw something that jiggered a switch regarding feruchemical Iron. A little bit of searching from memory and some pieces came together.

 

An Alcubierre drive is a theoretical FTL drive. An Alcubierre drive works by creating a field that displaces energy-density to a negative value in front of the ship into a positive one in the back of a ship. It's not actually faster than light travel, rather it is effectively faster than light, as the negative energy-density would mean that it compresses space-time in front of it and expands it behind it. I think of it like a space-time rubber band flick, except not like that at all.

 

Now, I'm no physicist, but we happen to have the ability to make change the energy-density of things, sort of. We have Feruchemical weight. Feruchemical weight is in the physical block, so it actually changes some physical property of mass. It also has wonky physics

 

So, this is not a theory that will go into great depth at this time, but the premise is:

 

 

Theory:

A Feruchemical Iron device is made that stores massive amounts of weight from a field in front of a ship and another that stores weight into a field near the back of the ship, such that the space in front of the ship has negative mass. This creates an Alcubierre drive.

 

 

Obvious problems are obvious: Can we make feruchemical devices? Can they transfer the mass fast enough? Does exotic matter (negative mass) exist in the cosmere? Would an Alcubierre drive even work?

 

We won't know until much later, but I think this is potentially a valid line of questioning into allomantic FTL travel. It has the advantage of being very simple, of being rooted in real world physics to an extent, it's complex enough mathematically not to be discovered until the future (for Scadrians), it is effectively simple and elegant to implement in design, if not in detail. The core difficulties it faces all seem probable to be overcome when more information is available.

 

 

Come n' give this theory hell, Kurk.  :lol:

Edited by Tempus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe there are matter/antimatter Mistings :)

 

More seriously, I don't think this will work for FTL.

 

The limit on Feruchemy is the Feruchemist's physical attribute.  A 200lb man could only store 200lb of weight at a time.  And pulling much more than 2-3 times his own weight into himself would crush him like a dime, especially if there's any acceleration going on with the ship.

Edited by RShara
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it wouldn't be a man, and the negative weight thing is an issue - we don't know if the cosmere supports exotic matter, and if it does, can feruchemy create it through some means? Also, the Alcubierre drive has minimal acceleration - it functions by compressing space time, effectively moving you through space-time displacement, not velocity. That's how it gets past the speed of light: it doesn't. It just has the same effect as if it did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, you did ask for me.

 

I find this doubtful because of the "new" allomancy that FTL needs. Are you perhaps assuming that this new allomancy will be how the nitty-gritty of this all is accomplished?

 

Speaking of the discussion on the linked-to thread, I think Brandon's answer to my own question rather strongly implies a need for time bubbles to some degree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the thing is Kurk, this theory could be plausible and still not be the one Brandon had devised. That said, I was presuming the unknown allomantic ability to be either...

 

 

• The ability to use feruchemical abilities autonomously or semi-autonomously on objects

 

or

 

• The ability to push feruchemical storage into the negatives (create negative mass), possibly through some kind of sophisticated nicrosil thing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The second one might be possible, but so far in the cosmere, all the magic involved some organic component (at least if you consider spren organic as well), so I don't think pure mechanical allomancy/feruchemy is going to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RShara, on 13 Apr 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

The second one might be possible, but so far in the cosmere, all the magic involved some organic component (at least if you consider spren organic as well), so I don't think pure mechanical allomancy/feruchemy is going to happen.

Unfortunately:

Quote

CHAOS2651

About the southern continent, would it be possible for other Scadrians to discover this method of using the Metallic Arts, or is it unique to the southern Scadrians?BRANDON SANDERSON

It is technology-based rather than genetics based.

It has been theorized that these are essentially Metallic Art fabrials. They are essentially totally inorganic, possible less so than actual fabrials if you consider spren organic in some way.

Edited by GreyPilgrim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I've never heard of this Alcubierre drive before! What amuses me to no end is that if this turns out to be something actually capable of working, then Futurama yet again predicted the future and helped invent new technology! It's not *exactly* the same, but the it is explained that the engines on the Professor's ship doesn't actually propel the ship through space, rather it moves space around the ship. Again, not 100% spot on but surprisingly close!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have several posts about this particular spacetime configuration across various posts, and given Brandon's desire to make the physics of his world follow ours I feel this is likely how allomantic FTL is going to work.

 

As an aside, the difficulty in our universe with setting up the Alcubierre drive is that it requires negative energy density.  As far as we know (and there are interesting experiments about this), everything in our universe has a positive coupling to the gravitational field - i.e. has positive mass.  (Contrast this to electromagnetism, where there are positive/negative charges.)

 

Your point, then, is very elegant - imagine allomancy can influence gravitational charge in such a way to change from positive to negative.  I imagine this would be the mass of the object itself, similar to how feruchemical iron changes the user's mass.  Then, if it were properly shaped, one would pump in Investiture and start moving.

 

Lastly, there is a WoB about how one might do this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

So, this somewhat amuses me because, assuming that allomancy cannot in fact be imbued on objects and that some Ferring/Feruchemist manages to do the thing with negative mass (which I don't think would work, as it would require the Feruchemist to store the absence of mass in her metalmind, which she doesn't have to give, as she actually has mass), this would require a big ship with a bunch of Ferrings/Feruchemists on either end propelling the ship. It's almost like a bunch of people propelling their ship through space via stationary bicycles, in terms of them providing the impetus, and the idea tickles me.

 

Interesting concept, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My pet theory was always that Allomantic FTL involved Mass Effect style mass shifting, but an Alcubierre Drive is a much more elegant theory.

 

However, I think we're limiting ourselves by considering it only in terms of Feruchemy and Feruchemical devices.  After all, every physical and cognitive Feruchemical power that we know of works on a purely internal basis.  The ones that work, or seem to work, directly on those outside the Feruchemist's own body (Duralumin and Chromium, and possibly Aluminum and Nicrosil depending on how exactly they function) are all spiritual in nature, not physical.  This assumes that the Terris are correct in their classification system, but the four metals that they classify as spiritual do seem to have a very strong spiritual basis.  Chromium is the big possible exception, but it depends on exactly what they mean by "Luck," and we simply have no example of the power functioning from which to draw conclusions.  Of particular note is that Feruchemical Iron does not even allow the Feruchemist to affect their own metalminds, making actual "weightlessness" (or "masslessness" if you prefer) a theoretical exercise at best, since the Feruchemist would always need to be in physical contact with a source of iron, which would still have mass.  However, I digress.

 

Allomancy, on the other hand, has a great many powers, physical and mental (and possibly spiritual, depending on how you classify certain things) that directly affect persons or things outside the Allomancer's own body.

 

I think that it is more likely that one (or more) of the unknown metals (that is to say, an as yet unseen Atium or Lerasium alloy) allows an Allomancer to alter the relative mass of objects outside their own body.  There are many possible ways for this power (or powers) to function; I have outlined a few that occur to me below:

 

1.  A metal that allows an Allomancer to transfer mass from one object to another.  This transference could be either permanent or only last as long as the Allomancer kept burning, depending on how the power functioned.  Both temporary and permanent transfers have points for and against, and either could be in keeping with what we have seen of Allomancy so far.

 

2.  A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to reduce the mass of an object, another that allows the Allomancer to increase the mass of an object.  Again, the effect could be either permanent or temporary, but temporary is far more likely given conservation of mass issues.

 

3.  A metal that allows an Allomancer to transfer mass from an object to herself, and back again, or vice versa, allowing an Allomancer to transfer her own mass to an object and back again.  This would almost certainly only last as long as the Allomancer was burning.  Hypothetically, this could also allow an Allomancer to shuttle mass using her body as a medium; i.e., take mass from Object A into the Allomancer's body, then transfer that mass from the Allomancer's body to Object B.

 

4.  A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to take mass from an object into her own body, another that allows the Allomancer to take her own mass and transfer it into an object.  Once again, this would certainly only last as long as the Allomancer was burning.  Note that the mass shuttling noted in #3 would not be possible except for a Mistborn, or someone who had both abilities through some other means, i.e. Hemalurgy.

 

5.  A set of paired metals, one of which allows the Allomancer to create a "bubble" of reduced mass, another that allows the Allomancer to create a "bubble" of increased mass.

 

6.  A single metal that allows the Allomancer to create two bubbles simultaneously- one of reduced mass, the other of proportionally increased mass (i.e., the mass would be "transferred" from one bubble to the other).

 

Yes, more bubbles.  We already have two metals that can compress and expand time in bubbles.  The idea of having metals that can compress and expand space (i.e. mass) in bubbles is a natural extension of that, and fits rather elegantly (if I do say so myself) into the principles of Sanderson's Third Law.

 

Option 5 (which I think would be expressed as the alloys Atium-Cadmium and Atium-Bendalloy, with Cadatium increasing mass and Bendatium decreasing mass) would fit well within our understanding of Allomancy and would solve some of the theoretical problems of an Alcubierre Drive in the Cosmere (not to mention fitting within Brandon's word that Allomantic FTL involves abilities we haven't seen yet).  Option 5 does have a few major problems, the most notable of which is its apparent violation of conservation of mass- even within temporary bubbles, the extra mass has to come from somewhere, or go somewhere.

 

Option 6 solves that problem, but introduces others- how does the mass get from Bubble A to Bubble B?  Does it travel faster than light to get between bubbles?  If not, would the application of Allomantic Bendalloy bubbles between Bubble A and Bubble B solve that problem?

 

Or perhaps the violation can be justified since it is only temporary- it cannot affect a permanent change to the amount of mass in the Cosmere, so conservation of mass is not violated.

 

Option 2 runs into the same conservation of mass issues, though options 1, 3 and 4 avoid it by directly transferring mass either from one object to another, or between objects and the allomancer.

 

Other possibilities exist.  For example, we know that matter can be moved into the cognitive realm.  The temporary transfer of mass from the physical realm to the cognitive realm would also be a plausible means of solving the conservation of mass problems inherent with Option 5.  I have no idea what effect this would have on the inhabitants of the cognitive realm, which adds a potentially interesting dynamic to the idea of allomantic FTL- the idea that it is environmentally destructive to the denizens of the cognitive realm in the areas where it is used (the local spren, in other words).

 

Though, now that I think about it, the very fact that matter can move in and out of the cognitive realm lends support to the idea that a temporary increase or decrease in mass would not be a violation of conservation of mass in the cosmere, since technically the mass of the physical realm is reduced every time someone or something is moved into the cognitive realm, and remains reduced until that person returns to the physical realm.  That also raises the question of what happens if a person's mass changes while they are in the cognitive realm.  I smell another theory there, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

So, in any case, there are numerous ways to get around conservation of mass problems.

 

I think the main remaining question is, as Tempus pointed out, whether negative mass can exist in the Cosmere, which is a question that we cannot answer.

 

But, as it stands, my theory is that Allomantic FTL will function through the application of Allomantic Cadatium and Bendatium, possibly assisted by allomantic Nicrosil, to create bubbles of negative and positive mass ahead and behind a vessel through the principles of an Alcubierre Drive.  This could function through the use of mistborn, mistings or allomantic devices.

 

Kurkistan: If I get a Slider, a Pulser, and a Nicroburst in a rocket with a lot of metal, do I have FTL?

Brandon: Hehehehe. You're getting _closer_ but you haven't figured it out yet.

 

I was sitting next to the table when you asked him this, Kurkistan, if you'll recall.  You interpret it as meaning that time bubbles are necessary for Allomantic FTL, but I think this theory would also qualify.  :-D

Edited by NutiketAiel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Impossible. I've asked Brandon a similar question and Feruchemy can only be used to extend attributes(i.e. weight, speed) but can't pass impossibilities (i.e. speed of light, negative mass, etc.). The answers got to lie in cadmium/bendalloy. I feel the biggest clue is the "rather expensive nothing" mentioned by Maris in Alloy of Law. But that's just me, mendling FTL theorist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting set of ideas, Nutiket.

 

I'm generally quite leery of starting to assign abilities to various god-metal alloys, but your assignments seem, as you note, a tad more elegant than most. Perhaps.

 

Yeah, that quote from Brandon is maddeningly open to interpretation. I was honestly expecting a RAFO, though, so at least we got something out of him. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Impossible. I've asked Brandon a similar question and Feruchemy can only be used to extend attributes(i.e. weight, speed) but can't pass impossibilities (i.e. speed of light, negative mass, etc.). The answers got to lie in cadmium/bendalloy. I feel the biggest clue is the "rather expensive nothing" mentioned by Maris in Alloy of Law. But that's just me, mendling FTL theorist.

Which is part of the reason that, as I note above, I think allomancy using an as-yet-unknown metal or pair of metals is more likely than feruchemy to produce the desired effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting set of ideas, Nutiket.

 

I'm generally quite leery of starting to assign abilities to various god-metal alloys, but your assignments seem, as you note, a tad more elegant than most. Perhaps.

 

Yeah, that quote from Brandon is maddeningly open to interpretation. I was honestly expecting a RAFO, though, so at least we got something out of him. ;)

Thank you, Kurkistan. :-) I agree that trying to assign attributes to the various god-metal alloys is largely futile, but there's no harm in theorizing, especially when Brandon has said that the solution to this problem will involve powers that we haven't seen yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are plausible powers, NutiketAiel. Biggest issue I have with them so far is that Atium alloys are claimed to have 'Various Temporal Effects'. Which doesn't really match up well here. As far as breaking conservation laws, I wouldn't worry about it - not a day goes by that Moogle doesn't rage at how Feruchemical iron and time bubbles break all known conservation laws in horrible, horrible ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are plausible powers, NutiketAiel. Biggest issue I have with them so far is that Atium alloys are claimed to have 'Various Temporal Effects'. Which doesn't really match up well here. As far as breaking conservation laws, I wouldn't worry about it - not a day goes by that Moogle doesn't rage at how Feruchemical iron and time bubbles break all known conservation laws in horrible, horrible ways.

 

It's "various Mental and Temporal effects", actually. Best to get the whole definition in there.

 

Brandon said just "various temporal effects" that one time, but the chart has the more expansive definition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are absolutely correct, Kurk. I personally tend to conflate the two, though. Atium is noted specifically to 'enhance the mind' as well as the whole time vision deal. While most forms of Investiture seem to enhance mental capacity in various ways, I presumed that God Metals do so more, or at least more notably, and thus 'Expanded Mental and Temporal' just means 'Time stuff and the brain power to use it'. Just my personal conjecture I suppose, but it makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...