Nahel Bond Clarification

[entropicscholar]

The Nahel Bond

The Nahel Bond is the spren-bond that grants humans and parshendi access to surgebinding and voidbinding. If a "cultivation bond" exists, it probably falls under this heading as well.

The quallification to receive the bond is primarily about behavior. It requires either a willing—or at least accepting—subject in order for it to work. (or in the case of Eshonai, one who is unable to resist. Something about her being Parshendi: I don't think a human could be forced into a bond that way.)

 

While I think I understand most of this fairly well, I don't know if others will. I'd also like some feedback, to tell me if I've made any obvious mistakes.

 

Humans

The primary effect for a human host is gainting magical power, including the ability to consume and use stormlight, as well as additional abilities depending on the specific bond.

To the spren, the benefit is even more important: sentience. It is important to note that Spren who normally participate in Nahel bonds, are sentient in their own right while in the cognitive realm; once crossing over into the physical realm, they quickly begin to deteriorate. The bond stops that deterioration, allowing them to function as they normally would. Additionally, the presence of a spren on the physical realm allows them much greater freedom and greater ability to influence world events.

 

 

Parshendi are Different.

The minds of Parshmen are much closer to the cognitive realm then those of humans are, and as a result, parshmen face a deterioration of intelligence and identity similar to what spren experience. Though the effect is to a slightly-lesser-extent, the results is roughly the same: parshmen do not think if they can avoid doing so—it's just too difficult, and too unpleasant. (Words of Radiance; page numbers later)

 

Because of this malady, universal to the parshman and parshendi race, the Nahel bond takes a largely different form:

Rather than the spren having their mind drawn further into the physical realm, and allowed to dwell there safely, the parshendi mind is drawn further into the cognitive realm, thereby allowing them to escape the mental inhibition they and the spren both normally experience when on the physical realm. (consider this section well founded speculation)

Sadly, when bound to a parshendi, the spren is not granted an independence cognitive presence on physical realm, as they would be with a human host.

Instead, the spren is allowed a presence within the mind of the parshendi, granting them a VERY strong influence on the thoughts, emotions, outlook, and actions of the host in question. (This does vary. Think of the mental impact granted throught the WORK, MATE, and STORM forms. they are all very different in degree and nature.)

 

While it might be argued that the amount of influence this allows the spren on the physical realm is more or less than that which they would receive from a human host, the nature of the influence clearly appeals to some spren more than others. (Honorspren might be adverse to mind-control)

 

Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Parshendi are capable of bonding with nonsentient/marginally sentient spren already found on the physical realm. Most common 'forms' used by parshendi are, in fact, of this type. (A great deal of speculation could also be attached to this one detail.)

 

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Beyond this I have three connected questions I am not certain about, and likely should take to Brandon at the next open Q&A.

 

1. If a parshman bonded to an Honorspren (, Cryptic, etc) would they gain the same surgebinding abilities as a human? Would a Human gain the same abilities as parshmen do if he were to bind to a Stormspren?

 

2. Parshendi change their physical shape when they take on new Nahel bonds. Is this a trait of the Parshman race, or a result of the type of spren they are bonding?

 

3. Parshendi are able to exchange the bond they have with one spren for a bond with other spren of their choice. Is it possible for humans to do the same? Would the spren be harmfully effected by this kind of activity?

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Any ideas on these 3 are appreciated as well.

Edited April 6, 2014 by entropicscholar

[Patrick Star]

1) Probably.  However, Radiantspren (that's what I'm calling them) have never been allowed to bond the Listeners, so it's never actually happened.

 

2) Yes and Yes.  The Listeners will have different forms based on the spren that they bond.  This physical change is unique to the Listener race.

 

3) Possibly and Probably.  A human would have to break the Nahel bond, which would likely almost certainly kill their spren.  It may be possible for them to bond a different kind of spren, but I'm not sure.  Also, I'm not sure that a spren would willingly bond a human who killed their last spren.

[PorridgeBrick]

1) Yes. The stanza about it not being impossible to "blend their surges to ours in the end" heavily implies this. However, what with their different physiology and their being "broth" to human's "meat", I suspect the mechanics of the bond would be different. It would be an Honorform, with the spren cooped up inside them, not gaining the Physical manifestation one gets from bonding humans.

2) It's a trait of the native Rosharan wildlife. I suspect that when chasmfiends and chulls pupate/undergo senescence, they switch spren just like listeners.

3) What Patrick said. Humans aren't really adapted to switching bonds with spren like the Parshendi evolved. You'd have to kill your spren, and then hope your new spren is suicidal enough to bond with you afterwards.

[kaellok]

3.  There's WoB that KR can bond multiple spren at once, although there is an unspecified limit.  Abandoning one bond would likely kill the spren, but it wouldn't necessarily be required.

[entropicscholar]

3) What Patrick said. Humans aren't really adapted to switching bonds with spren like the Parshendi evolved. You'd have to kill your spren, and then hope your new spren is suicidal enough to bond with you afterwards.

 

3.  There's WoB that KR can bond multiple spren at once, although there is an unspecified limit.  Abandoning one bond would likely kill the spren, but it wouldn't necessarily be required.

I was thinking that was probably it.

in order to have multiple bonds at once, you would need to follow the Oaths for every spren bound. you would probably have to uphold the "ideals" of each order you were a member of, even if they are not part of the Oaths (Syl told Kaladin to never lie, etc)

This would make keeping all of the Oaths more difficult, and make it easier to accidentally kill one or more of your spren, if they conflict.

 

Kaellok, would you mind posting that WoB quote?

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1) Probably.  However, Radiantspren (that's what I'm calling them) have never been allowed to bond the Listeners, so it's never actually happened.

I think I remember one of the Heralds being a Parshman (need to double check that though), why would they not be able to bond Radiantspren?

Edited April 7, 2014 by entropicscholar

[PorridgeBrick]

The Heralds are all human as far as we know. I believe there's a WoB for it somewhere, but it's not on Theoryland or the compiled WoB thread.

[Patrick Star]

I think I remember one of the Heralds being a Parshman (need to double check that though), why would they not be able to bond Radiantspren?

 

Heralds were all human, or at least non-Parshman.

 

They are able to bond Radiantspren, but are not allowed to.  That, or Radiantspren are not allowed to bond Parshmen.

 

If Stormfather decides "Hey, that Rlain fellow sure looks honorable.  You splinters can bond him now," Rlain would be able to get Honorform by bonding with a Radiantspren.

[kaellok]

I was thinking that was probably it.

in order to have multiple bonds at once, you would need to follow the Oaths for every spren bound. you would probably have to uphold the "ideals" of each order you were a member of, even if they are not part of the Oaths (Syl told Kaladin to never lie, etc)

This would make keeping all of the Oaths more difficult, and make it easier to accidentally kill one or more of your spren, if they conflict.

 

Kaellok, would you mind posting that WoB quote?

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I think I remember one of the Heralds being a Parshman (need to double check that though), why would they not be able to bond Radiantspren?

 

Here's what I've been able to find:

 

 

 

Q:  Is there a limit to how many Shardblades you can have, be bonded to?

A:  Theoretically, not really. There are some things that can bound that. I can imagine people have a lot. In the original draft of The Way of Kings (2002) Amaram had two. And so, it's definitely possible to have multiples, and I had not thought of someone trying to bond every Shardblade.

Q:  So that means you can be bonded to more than one spren?

A:  Well, those Shardblades are...

Q:  Dead ones.

A:  Yes. So, can you be bonded to more than one spren? The question's answer is also yes. Potentially. But there is a much harder limit on that.

 

And also this:

 

 

 

Q:  Can someone bond more than one Honorblade

A:  Honorblade?  You can't bond an Honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a sprenbond and it is possible to bond more than one. [This was cleared up at a later signing.]

[entropicscholar]

The Heralds are all human as far as we know. I believe there's a WoB for it somewhere, but it's not on Theoryland or the compiled WoB thread.

 

Ok, I looked back at where I'd thought I saw otherwise: it looks like you're all right.

I do wonder where I got that idea though...

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and Thankyou, to kaellok, for the quotes.

[Seloun]

'Nahel bond' appears to be specifically the human-spren bond working within the precepts of Ishi's restrictions:

 

 

They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond’s placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors.

 

This comes after Ishi's restrictions in the in-world WoR (the above quotation is from Chapter 8, while Ishi's dictates are in Chapter 2). The way the Parshendi bonds work is probably quite different, and (to be pedantic) isn't the Nahel bond. This quote also seems to imply that the potential human-spren bonds might be more freer or more flexible than what the Nahel bond provides (otherwise it's unclear how you could have 'rulings' of each different kinds of bonds).

 

It's probably reasonable to assume that all of the native forms of life require highstorms to do their spren bonding (this is certainly true of the Parshendi and appears to be implied for the chasmfiends). If we also assume that the Stormfather is also always involved in the Nahel bonding process (i.e. what Kaladin hears during the end of WoR is actually what always occurs, even if the Stormfather isn't visible) it may be that all of the bonds involve the Stormfather in some fashion, and Ishi's restriction was on when the Stormfather could 'assign' a bond to humans.

[entropicscholar]

from your quote, Seloun, it looks like 'Nahel' may indeed refer specifically to the bonds of the Knights Radiant.

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However,

It's probably reasonable to assume that all of the native forms of life require highstorms to do their spren bonding (this is certainly true of the Parshendi and appears to be implied for the chasmfiends). If we also assume that the Stormfather is also always involved in the Nahel bonding process (i.e. what Kaladin hears during the end of WoR is actually what always occurs, even if the Stormfather isn't visible) it may be that all of the bonds involve the Stormfather in some fashion, and Ishi's restriction was on when the Stormfather could 'assign' a bond to humans.

 

I would say that the assumption that the stormfather is always involved in forging bonds is highly suspect (The Stormfather cannot 'assign' every bond between human and spren, as Syl has stated directly that she bonded herself to Kal In Direct opposition to the Stormfather's will.). The assumption that Kaladin did not have a bond to Sylphrena at the beginning of Way of Kings is even more suspect. (your reference says 'Words of Radiance': not correct) (*spoiler warning* there is actually a teaser hidden in WoK--one of Kaladin's Flashbacks in Hearthstone--that suggests Kaladin used Stormlight prior to joining the army {he did not yet know that is what it was}. Also, in Lift's interlude [Words of Radiance], Walden claims that the is bonded to Lift because the Nightwatcher asked him to be. Shallan's bond is similarly unlikely to have occured due to a highstorm--life of luxury, bond made prior to her mother's death, etc. Nothing definative, of course, just some details that should be considered.)

 

Good catch on the specificity of 'Nahel', though, and I do like to think that humans would be capable of more bonds than just those 10, but I don't think you have evidence to support the rest.

Edited April 8, 2014 by entropicscholar

[Seloun]

I would say that the assumption that the stormfather is always involved in forging bonds is highly suspect (The Stormfather cannot 'assign' every bond between human and spren, as Syl has stated directly that she bonded herself to Kal In Direct opposition to the Stormfather's will.). The assumption that Kaladin did not have a bond to Sylphrena at the beginning of Way of Kings is even more suspect. (your reference says 'Words of Radiance': not correct) (*spoiler warning* there is actually a teaser hidden in WoK--one of Kaladin's Flashbacks in Hearthstone--that suggests Kaladin used Stormlight prior to joining the army {he did not yet know that is what it was}. Also, in Lift's interlude [Words of Radiance], Walden claims that the is bonded to Lift because the Nightwatcher asked him to be. Shallan's bond is similarly unlikely to have occured due to a highstorm--life of luxury, bond made prior to her mother's death, etc. Nothing definative, of course, just some details that should be considered.)

 

 

Syl's actions in bonding Kaladin doesn't mean the Stormfather wasn't involved with Syl's original bond; it's pretty clear at the end of WoR (I did mean WoR, by the way - I'm referring to the scene where Kaladin states the Third Ideal) that the Stormfather doesn't have a choice when it comes to accepting the words, if they're spoken properly.

 

It's also pretty clear the bond doesn't require being in a highstorm for humans: Dalinar bonds with the Stormfather without there being a highstorm present. That scene and Kaladin's Third Ideal scene demonstrates however that the Stormfather can 'be' at locations without the highstorm, and likely in a form which is invisible to most people (e.g. due to traveling in the Cognative). My statement was not that the Nahel bonds could only be formed during highstorms, just that the Stormfather may have to be involved for any spren bond to be formed.

[entropicscholar]

That makes sense then. Especially if the Stormfather is a sliver or splinter of Honor--if that's the case, the power for the bond would probably come from him directly or indirectly.