WitSpren Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Pattern has been around a LONG time and did not seem "stupid" on her first visit to Shadesmar, or anywhere as he was appearing/following her about. But when she drew him, like the sceintists, it seemed to "lock" him in the world & made him "stupid". Is that more to blame for his "loss" of knowledge, than the "transition" to the physical realm? Because he had many years to recover & learn after the initial transition from when she pre 11 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 The physical locking did nothing. What "injured" Pattern was her denying what/who she is and lying to herself about everything. Cryptics enjoy lies but to them lies and truths are different. A good lie is something that contains truth. What she did was against all that which is why he transitions back to nothingness for a long time. It's the exact same thing that Kal does to Syl, the only difference is that Pattern remained in that state for a much longer time so it took him longer to regain his Wit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Her drawing of Pattern had no effect on him. He seemed "stupid" in the beginning and has issues with his memory because of the transition to the Physical Realm, same as Syl, or Wyndle. The "drawing/writing" to lock a spren's physical form only works on flamespren. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasteel Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 It is a good question though, maybe it's the reason why pattern can't hide from others such as Syl or Wyndle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Weiry, I'm going to disagree about the locking only working on flamespren. I think it only works on flamespren, so far. Even Rushu comments on how interesting it is as a beginning. I think Shallan did pull Pattern much more into the physical world with her drawing. I think her bond had weakened (ala Kaladin) causing the child-like behavior he exhibited in the first few chapters of WoR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitSpren Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Weiry, I'm going to disagree about the locking only working on flamespren. I think it only works on flamespren, so far. Even Rushu comments on how interesting it is as a beginning. I think Shallan did pull Pattern much more into the physical world with her drawing. I think her bond had weakened (ala Kaladin) causing the child-like behavior he exhibited in the first few chapters of WoR. Yes, before she drew him, he seemed quite alert and sneeky. Following her about, but not in the "dumb" mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I think the drawing actually accelerated the recovery process, by locking his form into the Physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Thorn Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I see it as when she was a child the bond was strong, and pattern was mostly in the physical and quite intelligent. When she went into denial the bond (gradually) weakened, and pattern (gradually) mostly back into the cognitive. He can think normally there as it is his native plane, so the weak bond does not matter. When she does the drawing that serves to draw him back into the physical. The stupidness is from the transition as he acclimates. It passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 It is a good question though, maybe it's the reason why pattern can't hide from others such as Syl or Wyndle. Wyndle specifically mentions that some spren are better at manifesting themselves than others so I think that's more about the nature of the spren themselves than any "locking" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 It does seen that it's mostly just a matter of "pulling" Pattern over rather than locking him. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6743-brandons-answers-in-houston-311-signing/?p=110173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitSpren Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I think the drawing actually accelerated the recovery process, by locking his form into the Physical. I'm not sure what you are saying here. If you mean that it helped "solidify" the link and bring them into immediate concious interaction - then I agree completely. They are obviously working together from that point on. But I do think that there was a "cost" to her method. That it "injured" him in a way. He is no longer able to "disappear" and he immediately went extreemely "dumb" at that point. Now he has/is recovering remarkably fast and it is much better for them to actually be working together. I just wonder what the full effect was on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maffu17 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 It is interesting that he can't disappear once Shallan drew him. However, the measuring of the flamespren had to be exact (at least from the view of the measurer) isn't Pattern referred to as an impossible shape? Also if this was the case wouldn't he be incapable of transitioning from 2D into 3D? I think his inability to vanish lies more in what Wyndle said which Numb has already mentioned above. When she was drawing the Symbol-Heads in WoK they were probably still in Shadesmar and she was peeking through the veil, as she did with the infamous stick. I'm not sure her drawing him did anything, he's not locked into the physical world as he afterwards accompanies Shallan into Shadesmar. Still very interesting though and I will definitely keeping an eye on anyone drawing spren in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecalled Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Doesn't she say multiple times that his shape keeps changing, individual arms recombining to form different complex shapes all the time? Unlike the flamespren, Pattern seems to have not been locked in the shape Shallan drew of him. Her drawing him was still immensely significant, but not in making him stupid, I think. Syl was stupid in the beginning too. I think that's something most spren go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 There's a few times in the books where it's mentioned that a spren's ability to think in the Physical realm is different than in Shadesmar. Comparing them in the two realms to try and determine damage is thus not going to produce useful or accurate results. We would have to compare Pattern in the Physical realm pre- and post-drawing, but there is very little to go on. Personally, I think that if Shallan injured him, it was 6 years in the past and all of the lies she told herself and the world, not when she drew him. I would be curious to know if she ever actually summoned him as a Shardblade during that intervening time; I am inclined to say that Pattern was not able to manifest on the Physical realm at all until she drew him, establishing a stronger link between them again (belief, renewed vows, etc.) Of course, there's not really any evidence to suggest that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysanja Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 remember how quickly Sly was back from being dead? she was not stupid again. Pattern was propably as far developed as Sly(turning in a shardblade), but when hes back hes stupid again and develops slowly. Pattern also mentioned that Shallan swore more then one oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) remember how quickly Sly was back from being dead? she was not stupid again. Pattern was propably as far developed as Sly(turning in a shardblade), but when hes back hes stupid again and develops slowly. Pattern also mentioned that Shallan swore more then one oath. What he said was that Shallan had "already said the words" but as Lightweavers only have one ideal that doesn't mean much. In order to restore and progress her bond with Pattern Shallan had to speak truths instead. Much like how Kaladin restored Syl by speaking a new ideal rather than just repeating his existing ones. Edited April 6, 2014 by Wrath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysanja Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Last page of chapter 17 page 256/257 ... "It is an i mporrtand matter," Shallan said.. "Iwon't do it. I'm not one of the Knights Radiant. Jasnah made that clear. A man who can use a sword isn't necessarily a soldier. Just because I can do what I dodoesn't make me one of them." "You spoke oaths" Shallan froze. ... i thought this would mean atleast 2 oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSU Tiger Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Lightweavers only have the first ideal and then truths. I think her drawing him was her telling a truth. He had been around the whole time but she would not let herself see him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Technically one could say that the First Ideal is three oaths, since it has three parts. Dalinar may also have sworn multiple oaths with the Second Ideal of the Bondsmiths, since it has two parts ("I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together.") So one ideal does not necessarily equal one oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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