Parshendi idea: they want to die

[Mad_Scientist]

The parshendi are a mystery. Jasnah thinks they are related to the Voidbringers, and while there are obviously things she doesn't know, I doubt it if she's completely wrong. That would imply that the parshendi are the minions or servants of Odium. Yet everything about them that we've seen screams "Honor." The only apparant exception to this is them killing Gavilar, but even in that, they had Szeth wear white. "Because if you're going to kill a man, he's entitled to see you coming."

I couldn't figure it out the first time I read Way of Kings, and I'm still not sure I've figured it out after finishing reading the book for a second time just recently. But with my new knowledge of Brandon's other books, specifically Mistborn, a possible idea sprang to mind.

Warning, Mistborn 3 spoilers follow:

The parshendi remind me very much of the Kandra, which were of Preservation in their culture and attitudes, but of Ruin because of their spikes. When Ruin tried to take control of them, they pulled out their spikes so that they could not be turned into his minions.

What if the parshendi are like this in a way, being of both Honor and Odium?

My idea is that the parshendi were actually created by the Almighty, and are thus beings forged by Honor. However, for reasons I don't fully understand, they are required to serve Odium during the desolations. They will become like Szeth, forced to kill and main and slaughter, despite not wanting to. Worse, being creature of Honor, they may be literally incapable of stopping, unlike Szeth.

But what to do? Surely whatever pact forces them to serve Odium also prevents them from killing themselves, or seeking death in battle by doing stupid things like fighting chasmfiends barehanded, or anything like that. So how can they ensure Odium can't use them?

By pissing off the most powerful military nation on the planet.

Their tactics on the Shattered Plains make a lot of sense, from this perspective. They have to get the gemhearts because they need them to make food, and they can't simply let themselves starve.

They are described in the books as being very good at fleeing when the battle goes against them, which would make sense, as they can't seek death so once the battle becomes hopeless they have no choice but to flee. But they never bother harrassing the Alethi soldiers when they flee after a parshendi victory, despite the fact that the parshendi's chasm jumping ability would give them a huge advantage and let them really butcher the Alethi forces.

They never bring two armies to a fight... until they are forced to, when Dalinar and Sadeas's alliance makes fighting with only a single force the same as suicide. But even then, they still never bring more forces than that which gives them a reasonable chance at victory.

The theory makes sense, but I am unsure about it. For one thing, it ultimately wouldn't be that helpful to the world. If the parshendi/parshmen really are the Voidbringers, then the biggest threat is not the parshendi, but the parshmen. Afterall, if the parshendi invaded, they'd just be like any other invading nation, and their abilities provide them far less of an advantage in places other than the Shattered Plains. But the parshmen suddenly attacking would be horrorfic because of how entrenched they are.

Maybe the parshendi hoped that if they fought long enough, people would realize the danger parshmen present. Or maybe the parshendi have another reason for doing what they are doing, and my theory is wrong. I'm honestly not sure what I think myself.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Ooh! Because of Syl's reaction to the Shardblade the theory has been tossed around that the Blades are of Odium. By itself it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but when combined with this one a picture starts to emerge.

It's a trade, Odium made swords for Honor's champions in exchange for an army. Why? I don't know, maybe it has to do with the rules that Shards have to follow that Honor mentions in Dalinar's last vision. Maybe they put armies against each other so that they don't wipe each other out like

Vin and Ati did in Hero of Ages.

But it makes sense, yeah?

[happyman]

Maybe the parshendi hoped that if they fought long enough, people would realize the danger parshmen present. Or maybe the parshendi have another reason for doing what they are doing, and my theory is wrong. I'm honestly not sure what I think myself.

Given that Jasnah has come to exactly this conclusion, it's entirely possible.

This is the least nonsensical theory on the subject I have seen so far. Claiming that the Parshmen are not Voidbringers seems unlikely, despite all the times I've seen it. Jasnah's research just seems too solid to deny it outright.

[Cheese Ninja]

Could the Parshendi's current song be a corrupting influence of Honor the same way that we've been considering the Alethi's Thrill as a corrupting influence of Odium?

I'm thinking of the Parshmen as receivers for broadcast messages. They become dangerous if they start receiving an Odium related message to start a Desolation. Maybe one or two of the (currently missing) Heralds hijacked the system to get at least a few Parshmen to become the relatively honorable Parshendi.

This still works with the "trying to get themselves killed" theory if they know that this is only a temporary state for them, and that if their normal message gets broadcast, they'll become hateful killers.

[Asha'man Logain]

I think perhaps the Humans are more of Odium than the parshendi. What's the most extreme outlet of hate? Killing. And the most extreme method of killing? War. Yes, ostensibly the Parshendi started it, but we have an entire race (that we've seen) acting in accordance with Honor, yet the few Humans who act with Honor are so out of place terrible things happen to them in their society.

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Usually the main characters, or most of the viewpoint characters are on the side of good (culturally). Maybe this time it's been switched?

[happyman]

I think perhaps the Humans are more of Odium than the parshendi. What's the most extreme outlet of hate? Killing. And the most extreme method of killing? War. Yes, ostensibly the Parshendi started it, but we have an entire race (that we've seen) acting in accordance with Honor, yet the few Humans who act with Honor are so out of place terrible things happen to them in their society.

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Usually the main characters, or most of the viewpoint characters are on the side of good (culturally). Maybe this time it's been switched?

This is logical, but for it to be really convincing, you would have to explain away the Almighty's claim that he created humanity.

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

This seems to line up with the fact they get upset when you mess with their dead. If they are a suicidal people because they truly hate what they are forced to do, then wouldn't one of the worst things you could do would be to mess with the body of a person that is finally free from his or her curse? I would think so.

[Dros]

I just don't see the Parshendi being the Voidbringers.

Bear with me here. I've been thinking about the Oathpact...from what we know of it, that has to be the worst negotiated settlement I've ever heard of. Honor gets ten angelic warriors to stop complete destruction, not bad, they seemedd to have been winning...but if you dig into it a bit? Odium gets Thunderclasts, Voidbringers, Chasmfiends, and god knows what else to bring on Desolations. In between Desolations Honor has to send his champions to be flayed for centuries or even millenia. Odium? His guys are fine? Just biding their time, gambling, drinking, kicking dogs or whatever floats their boat or they have to serve humans until the Heralds show up again?

I would imagine Honor might be a better negotiater than that. I see the Voidbringers being the counterpoints to the Heralds. I just don't see the Parshendi as the Voidbringers. The picture J points to as a Voidbringer is similar to big giant lobster...what would a "voidish creature" actually look like? Can they choose whatever form they want...like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man in Ghostbusters? A big giant mean-as-hell lobster is as good as anything I would think. So if Voidbringers are the counters to the Heralds...where do they go to be tortured in between Desolations? Watching Yentl over and over and over? Being forced to feed cute kittens milk out of saucers until the next Desolation? For something made of pure hate, I imagine that would really suck.

In that vein, I don't think the Parshendi are trying to commit suicide. They probably want gemhearts for the same reason any man wants them. Power. However, hasn't there been quite a discussion that access to magic on Roshar is closely tied to one's actions and one's journey and not merely their accomplishments? Perhaps they need to retrieve the gemhearts in an honorable fashion and walking up hacking a dormant creature to death doesn't cut it. They need to compete for it, so starting a war with the Alethi would satisfy that need.

Might explain why they threw away Szeth's oathstone with disgust even after they made sure he approached Gavilar in white. Szeth thought that was quite inconsiderate, but for god's sake...he's an assassin! However honorable he thinks he is...assassins are not really thought of as the most honorable folk. They did a terrible thing as honorably as possible...not sure if that works or not, but who said people always come up with perfect plans?

Whattaya think?

Sorry this was so long...hope I didn't ramble.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Droz

[Asha'man Logain]

This is logical, but for it to be really convincing, you would have to explain away the Almighty's claim that he created humanity.

Well first of all he never explicitly stated he did in fact create humanity.

However, i'm going to have to assume it's like the ruin/preservation dichotomy. Can the humans we see on Roshar truly be made solely by Honor? They are acting very contrary to his intent at this time. They must at least have some other part of another shard inside them in order to have any kind of free will, let alone the blatant disregard the Alethi have for honor.

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

I was thinking, what the parshendi's goal is to to die but not because they are forced to serve odium? What if it is like the old norse myths were dying in different ways meant you went to a different heaven? Perhaps the Parshendi are like the vikings in their reason for needing the gem hearts too, the vikings only pillaged because they lived so far north and couldn't support themselves on what their land produced.

This still doesn't explain why they broke the treated hours after they signed it, but hey its a thought!

[Aashyma]

I just don't see the Parshendi being the Voidbringers.

Late post is late but..

From the Prelude:

Blood mixed. Red. Orange. Violet.

We know that greatshells bleed purple:

An enormous arrow slammed into the chasmfiend’s head, cracking chitin. Purple gore spurted free,

causing the beast to trump in agony. Dalinar twisted in the saddle.

and again:

Adolin walked up to join his father, watching as Elhokar plunged his Blade into the chasmfiend’s

chest. Now that the beast was dead, the Blade could cut its flesh. Violet ichor spurted out, and Elhokar

dropped his blade and reached into the wound, questing with Plate-enhanced arms, grabbing something.

Allowing for the red blood to be human, we can assume that the orange is that of Voidbringers.

From chapter 26:

Parshendi corpses flew this way and that, bones

and armor shattered by the blows, orange Parshendi blood spraying across the ground.

I believe that we can safely assume that the Pashendi are either Voidbringers themselves or are closely related to them.

[Zayde]

That and all of Jasnah's research quotes about voidbringers refer to ash and fire and the ability to shapeshift.

[Dros]

Allowing for the red blood to be human, we can assume that the orange is that of Voidbringers.

Assuming Voidbringers bleed.

I believe that we can safely assume that the Pashendi are either Voidbringers themselves or are closely related to them.

Oh, I'll be the first to admit every shred of evidence points to this^, but it just doesn't...feel right. It's hard to argue it in that respect. Voidbringers are described as having terrible burned skin and eyes like pits of darkness, etc. The skin of Voidbringers seems to be described as actually being scarred and consumed from fire.

The parshendi are similar, but not the same.

That and all of Jasnah's research quotes about voidbringers refer to ash and fire and the ability to shapeshift.

One thing that caught my eye was Hoid's story to Kaladin about D. (can't remember the name!) and his attempt to find the origins of the Voidbringers and where they are "spawned". That word caught my eye. It's like they were created or summoned, not born (I keep thinking of Call of Duty and "spawn points"...one shows up ready to fight). This suggests Voidbringers show up out of the blue and originate somewhere else in the world...or some other world, dimension, universe...void?...etc. I imagine everyone is quite aware of where the Parshment come from now and if Jasnah's research was correct, the Parshmen have been around for a long time and turned on their masters time and time again. If this was how it happened and how the Desolations caused so much destruction I think people would have been well aware of the Parshmen's and Parshendi's origins.

Now this assumes Hoid's king wasn't commencing his search before the Parshmen were enslaved (and it's actually a true story or at least based on some type of truth). But really, wouldn't they have questioned and gotten an answer out of any surviving Parshmen they enslaved? Apparently, the Parshmen can speak Dalinar's language.

But maybe they do change in some way, but I think it's odd there were never any Parshendi bodies in Dalinar's visions...could be he looked over them in awe of what he was seeing, but since he had been fighting them for so long I doubt that would be the case.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Droz

[pmj812]

Because we're so early in the series there are only two possible outcomes of Jasnah's "discovery."

1) she's right and no-one believes her,

2) she's wrong and everyone believes her.

It's too early for a resolution so her discovery can only be part of a raising of the tension.

I admit that her research seems solid but I'd like to present an important counterpoint:

her worldview is WRONG. Her beliefs that the Almighty isn't real and that the legends of the desolations are just stories that describe natural cataclysms are demonstrably incorrect. Starting from such a flawed premise, can we really trust her conclusions?

[Aashyma]

her worldview is WRONG. Her beliefs that the Almighty isn't real and that the legends of the desolations are just stories that describe natural cataclysms are demonstrably incorrect. Starting from such a flawed premise, can we really trust her conclusions?

That is actually a strong argument in her favour: she started out being highly sceptical remember?

The ardents and other believers do think that Voidbringers existed and were responsible for the Desolations but Jasnah started out firmly prejudiced against their having ever existed.

Edit:

Assuming Voidbringers bleed.

A Herald says they do, surely we can take their word?

Now this assumes Hoid's king wasn't commencing his search before the Parshmen were enslaved (and it's actually a true story or at least based on some type of truth). But really, wouldn't they have questioned and gotten an answer out of any surviving Parshmen they enslaved? Apparently, the Parshmen can speak Dalinar's language.

From chapter 72 Versitalian:

Suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.

And again:

Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness. Music when they kill.

Would humans be silly enough to believe that they had tamed the Voidbringers and enslave them after every Desolation? Sure, as long as you keep in mind the long gaps between each one-the last one was 4.500 years ago.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Aashyma

[Dros]

A Herald says they do, surely we can take their word?

I don't recall him ever saying that specifically...did he?

[Aashyma]

I don't recall him ever saying that specifically...did he?

Actually, now that you mention it, Kalad does just say that there were three types of blood mixing.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Aashyma

[happyman]

I believe the Parshmen/Parshendi are the Voidbringers, or at least related to them. Jasnah's research notes seemed quite solid.

I still don't know what that means, though. This topic comes up perennially, and this is the only answer I've been able to find that makes sense: The Parshmen are the voidbringers. But we don't know why that's important or what their real function is, so the revelation is probably only partly true. Jasnah may have come to the right general conclusion, but her worldview is missing a few important pieces, so she may take incorrect actions based off of them.

[Dros]

Y'all might be completely right, the arguments are very convincing, in my opinion, that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers. If we're assuming Voidbringers are some type of person or animal, the Parshendi seem to fit the bill when considering Jasnah's research. I certianly can't back up many assertions to refute them...I imagine BS will settle this later, but the speculation is pretty intriguing to me.

Just a couple thoughts to see what you guys think:

Tthe name itself (Void-bringer) seems to describe the entity's actions. The Voidbringers "bring the void" whatever that might entail. After looking at this for a little while, I'm not sure the Voidbringers are anything like a physical person or being at all.

Has anyone discussed the drawing described in the book? ...the picture described by Jasnah (?? I think it was her research) showed a similar creature to a Chasmfiend with people pointing at it and a storm of some kind behind it. The caption said it was a drawing of a Voidbringer. Now was it referring to the creature or the storm behind the creature as a Voidbringer?

Hoid's story about the king looking for a place where the Voidbringers (if they're storms of some kind) are spawned would actually make more sense in that regard.

[Aashyma]

Y'all might be completely right, the arguments are very convincing, in my opinion, that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers. If we're assuming Voidbringers are some type of person or animal, the Parshendi seem to fit the bill when considering Jasnah's research. I certianly can't back up many assertions to refute them...I imagine BS will settle this later, but the speculation is pretty intriguing to me.

Just a couple thoughts to see what you guys think:

Tthe name itself (Void-bringer) seems to describe the entity's actions. The Voidbringers "bring the void" whatever that might entail. After looking at this for a little while, I'm not sure the Voidbringers are anything like a physical person or being at all.

Has anyone discussed the drawing described in the book? ...the picture described by Jasnah (?? I think it was her research) showed a similar creature to a Chasmfiend with people pointing at it and a storm of some kind behind it. The caption said it was a drawing of a Voidbringer. Now was it referring to the creature or the storm behind the creature as a Voidbringer?

Hoid's story about the king looking for a place where the Voidbringers (if they're storms of some kind) are spawned would actually make more sense in that regard.

Mmm, but there have been descriptions of Voidbringers-ash and fire and all that.

As for the name, well death could be seen as a void right? If I am not wrong, Raoden described himself as "returning from the void" in Elantris.

[Dros]

Mmm, but there have been descriptions of Voidbringers-ash and fire and all that.

But do the notes ever actually say, "Voidbringers have skin like so: XXXXX"?

BS is a savvy writer, it's like presenting a policy or project proposal to a savvy politiican, boss or potential client who has something else in mind for whatever reason. After you present, they'll say, "Yessir, I think that is the best option."

If you leave and tell your superiors you've landed it, you'll be in for a big surprise. Yours might be the best option, but they never said they'd implement it or even ever discuss it again. They are very careful about exactly what they say. If you imply something and they agree, great, they won't say anything. If you imply something and they don't like it, they point back at the exact phrasing only.

It seems BS is very careful about how he words things(this is a series after all and he is quite a successful writer, and who wants to read a series when you already have all the answers and it's easy to project the arc of the story?). Every conjecture or bit of speculation I've written could be completely wrong, and every scrap of research Jasnah in story has gathered could be completely off base. Hell, she could be a Voidbringer trying to throw everyone off her trail!

That's basically my argument. Throwing out different theories is just a fun way to speculate, but really I don't think it's anywhere near definitive that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers. I do agree, however, there is quite a bit of evidence in favor of that theory and I think BS has deliberately done that so he can throw one heckuva twist in there at some point. What that twist might be is what I'm speculating about.

[Aashyma]

Quotes on Voidbringers:

Gifts of their god, granted to allow them to fight horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes

whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers.

“They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.”

—This fragment is the origin of a Thaylen proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common

derivation. I believe it may reference the Voidbringers. See Ixsix’s Emperor, fourth chapter.

Innia, in her recordings of children’s folktales, speaks of the Voidbringers as being “Like a

highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected.” The word Desolation is used twice in

reference to their appearances.

Like shadows they were, that can transform as the

flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.

(emphasis mine.)

Suffice it to say that the

Almighty’s pure goodness created the Voidbringers, but men may choose good without creating evil

because as mortals they have a dual nature.

I found this one interesting-it's by Kabsal.

The following are from Jasnah's notes:

Shallan scanned the page. Some of the quotes—or at least the concepts—were familiar to her from

what she’d read already.

Suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.

“They were real,” Jasnah repeated.

Beings of ash and fire.

“We fought with them,” Jasnah said. “We fought so often that men began to speak of the creatures

in metaphor. A hundred battles—ten tenfolds...”

Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness. Music when they kill.

[Dros]

Quotes on Voidbringers:

Quote

Gifts of their god, granted to allow them to fight horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes

whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers.

Quote

“They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.”

—This fragment is the origin of a Thaylen proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common

derivation. I believe it may reference the Voidbringers. See Ixsix’s Emperor, fourth chapter.

Quote

Innia, in her recordings of children’s folktales, speaks of the Voidbringers as being “Like a

highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected.” The word Desolation is used twice in

reference to their appearances.

Quote

Like shadows they were, that can transform as the

flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.

(emphasis mine.)

Quote

Suffice it to say that the

Almighty’s pure goodness created the Voidbringers, but men may choose good without creating evil

because as mortals they have a dual nature.

I found this one interesting-it's by Kabsal.

The following are from Jasnah's notes:

Quote

Shallan scanned the page. Some of the quotes—or at least the concepts—were familiar to her from

what she’d read already.

Suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.

“They were real,” Jasnah repeated.

Beings of ash and fire.

“We fought with them,” Jasnah said. “We fought so often that men began to speak of the creatures

in metaphor. A hundred battles—ten tenfolds...”

Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness. Music when they kill.

And I rest my case! Oh wait, yeah, you're right.

Well, I guess that takes care of that. heh.

[Aashyma]

Well, I guess that takes care of that. heh.

Your argument is still valid-all the information Jasnah has gathered is third hand at least.

[Jaconis]

Gifts of their god, granted to allow them to fight horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes

whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers.

This one in particular got my eye of the quotes. "Dozens of feet tall." We know for a fact that Parshendi, as we've seen them, are not dozens of feet tall; they are the same height as men, perhaps slightly taller. Admittedly, the rest of the quotes could easily apply to the Parshendi, but that doesn't mean they can't apply to other creatures as well.

In my opinion, there are numerous descriptions of Voidbringers that could apply to the Parshendi OR to something else, and one description that CANNOT apply to the Parshendi. That, to me, means that the Voidbringers being described in these quotes are not the Parshendi as we see them.

Orange blood in the prelude doesn't necessarily mean it came from the enemy of the Heralds. It could have just as easily come from allies.

My third and final point in favor of Parshendi not being Voidbringers comes from the final battle of the book. When Dalinar is beaten by the Parshendi Shardbearer, the Parshendi speaks to Dalinar. Dalinar then realizes he's seen this event before in one of his visions, from the Parshandi's point of view. If the visions are from Honor, I find it unlikely that he could or would be using one of his enemy's minions as a "viewpoint." I think this is proof that the Parshendi are of Honor at minimum, although Odiun may have had a hand in their creation as well. This point obviously becomes invalid if the visions turn out to not be from Honor.